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OfflineAnglerfishM
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Panaeolus vs. Psathyrella questions (id request)
    #24225689 - 04/07/17 02:49 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Found these yesterday and today in a lawn that was made and sown (not laid) two years ago.
Last November this lawn was strewn with what was obviously a species (or more than one?)
of Psathyrella, as well as a few Coprinopsis sp.

My initial impression for this new find was Psathyrella, however I started to doubt it when seeing
the jet black spore print. I have seen grayish prints from that genus, but never jet black. Stem as brittle
and flimsy as can be, cap fragile. One specimen has slightly mottled gills, the other one not so much.

A mycologist is convinced from the pictures and my description that this is Panaeolus, P. ater is what
he calls them. I see this is apparently synonymous with P. fimicola, yet when looking at pictures of that
species, I see something different than my find. He is a very knowledgeable guy, and apparently well into his
Psathyrella.

So my question is - although lacking microscopy - what should I choose to call these? Are they all even the same species?

Yesterdays find - lacking camera in situ - first specimen with print:



Today, second specimen:



Third specimen:



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OfflineDoc9151M
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Re: Panaeolus vs. Psathyrella questions (id request) [Re: Anglerfish]
    #24225722 - 04/07/17 03:07 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

From what I can find,  it's the same as p. cinctulus. It appears more than one panaeolus is called " turf mottled gill". I have seen that on p. Cinctulus, p. Ater and p. Fimicola; are they all the samething?


--------------------


Psilocybe cubensis data collection thread. please help with this project if you hunt wild cubensis.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=26513593&page=0&vc=1#26513593


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OfflineAnglerfishM
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Re: Panaeolus vs. Psathyrella questions (id request) [Re: Doc9151]
    #24225746 - 04/07/17 03:21 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Doc9151 said:
From what I can find,  it's the same as p. cinctulus. It appears more than one panaeolus is called " turf mottled gill". I have seen that on p. Cinctulus, p. Ater and p. Fimicola; are they all the samething?




I don't think P. cinctulus is anything other than P. cinctulus. I don't know if P. ater and P. fimicola are conspecific.

The problem with Panaeolus is that it is seemingly quite underrated and overlooked by most mycologists.
I feel guilty for wanting this to be Psathyrella. It's like "duh. only a Panaeolus".
Still, if it can gain me some knowledge trying to solve my uncertainty, it's win win.

Problem is - who has the knowledge, the key and not least the time to look at these under a microscope?

My Norwegian contact naming this Panaeolus would ask for me to send it straight if he thought it was a Psathyrella.

You see the problem. I have some slight ambitions of getting a scope myself, but I'm not sure if I have the time
to school myself in using it. I just don't have the time on my hands - I prefer being outdoors, and my occupation
takes most of my wake hours.


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OfflineDoc9151M
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Re: Panaeolus vs. Psathyrella questions (id request) [Re: Anglerfish]
    #24225795 - 04/07/17 03:47 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Here is a list of the Synonyms for cinctulus,  it appears fimicola is the samething. I  didn't realize that they are in the psathyrellacea family, that must be why it's confusing to you.
Synonyms for cinctulus




Family: Psathyrellaceae
Genus: Panaeolus
Species: P. cinctulus
Binomial name
Panaeolus cinctulus
(Bolton) Saccardo (1887)
Panaeolus-subbalteatus-range-map.png
Approximate Panaeolus cinctulus range
Synonyms[1][2]
Agaricus cinctulus Bolton (1791)
Coprinus cinctulus (Bolton) Gray (1821)
Agaricus fimicola var. cinctulus (Bolton) Cooke (1883)
Panaeolus fimicola var. cinctulus (Bolton) Rea (1922)
Agaricus subbalteatus Berk. & Broome (1861)
Panaeolus subbalteatus (Berk. & Broome) Sacc. (1887)
Panaeolus alveolatus Peck (1902)
Panaeolus acidus Sumstine (1905)
Campanularius semiglobatus Murrill (1911)
Panaeolus semiglobatus (Murrill) Sacc. & Trottcr (1925)
Panaeolus rufus Overh. (1916)
Panaeolus variabilis Overh. (1916)
Panaeolus venenosus Murrill (1916)
Psilocybe vernalis Velen. (1921)
Campanularius pumilus Murrill (1942)
Panaeolus pumilus (Murrill) Murrill (1942)
Panaeolus dunensis Bon & Courtec (1983)


--------------------


Psilocybe cubensis data collection thread. please help with this project if you hunt wild cubensis.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=26513593&page=0&vc=1#26513593


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Re: Panaeolus vs. Psathyrella questions (id request) [Re: Doc9151]
    #24225844 - 04/07/17 04:16 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Not Panaeolus.  Perhaps Parasola.


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OfflineAnglerfishM
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Re: Panaeolus vs. Psathyrella questions (id request) [Re: donjonson420]
    #24225862 - 04/07/17 04:21 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

donjonson420 said:
Not Panaeolus.  Perhaps Parasola.




Are you pointing to my find? What makes you lean towards that suggestion?

Thanks for contributing! :thumbup:


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InvisibleCham9085
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Re: Panaeolus vs. Psathyrella questions (id request) [Re: Anglerfish]
    #24225885 - 04/07/17 04:34 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Would lacrymaria be a possibility


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OfflineAnglerfishM
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Re: Panaeolus vs. Psathyrella questions (id request) [Re: Cham9085]
    #24225897 - 04/07/17 04:41 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Cham9085 said:
Would lacrymaria be a possibility




No way.

I'm kind of waiting for Byrain to drop by and give a hint.


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OfflineLucisM
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Re: Panaeolus vs. Psathyrella questions (id request) [Re: Anglerfish]
    #24225910 - 04/07/17 04:46 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

That first ones cap looks a lot like Psathyrella, reminds me of the wrinkled caps Psathyrella delineata have, I am not calling it that though.

Do you have a scope?


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©️


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InvisibleCham9085
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Re: Panaeolus vs. Psathyrella questions (id request) [Re: Lucis]
    #24225956 - 04/07/17 05:09 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Fennario said:
That first ones cap looks a lot like Psathyrella, reminds me of the wrinkled caps Psathyrella delineata have, I am not calling it that though.

Do you have a scope?



Remember that frozen baby shroom I found a couple weeks ago, Doc and I thought was a psilocybe? And you IDed it as psathyrella delineates?

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/24183249/page/5


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OfflineLucisM
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Re: Panaeolus vs. Psathyrella questions (id request) [Re: Cham9085]
    #24225979 - 04/07/17 05:20 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah, im not saying that what is pictured above is that species of Psath, but the cap is similar to some Psaths I have seen.  I don't know what other species have a wrinkled pilei like that.

I have picked cincts that looked just like Panaeolopsis, had that same funky looking cap, but scoped out to Pan cincts.

Read someplace that the growing conditions can make the pilei do funky things.


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OfflineAnglerfishM
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Re: Panaeolus vs. Psathyrella questions (id request) [Re: Lucis]
    #24226073 - 04/07/17 06:08 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Cap surface of 3rd specimen:



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InvisibleCham9085
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Re: Panaeolus vs. Psathyrella questions (id request) [Re: Anglerfish]
    #24226091 - 04/07/17 06:13 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

agaricaceae??


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InvisibleCham9085
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Re: Panaeolus vs. Psathyrella questions (id request) [Re: Cham9085]
    #24226096 - 04/07/17 06:16 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

I didn't mean to put agaricaceae


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Re: Panaeolus vs. Psathyrella questions (id request) [Re: Anglerfish]
    #24226161 - 04/07/17 06:46 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Anglerfish said:
Quote:

donjonson420 said:
Not Panaeolus.  Perhaps Parasola.




Are you pointing to my find? What makes you lean towards that suggestion?

Thanks for contributing! :thumbup:




After revisiting the literature I agree with Panaeolus fimicola at least on paper.


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OfflineAnglerfishM
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Re: Panaeolus vs. Psathyrella questions (id request) [Re: donjonson420]
    #24227051 - 04/08/17 04:37 AM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

donjonson420 said:
Quote:

Anglerfish said:
Quote:

donjonson420 said:
Not Panaeolus.  Perhaps Parasola.




Are you pointing to my find? What makes you lean towards that suggestion?

Thanks for contributing! :thumbup:




After revisiting the literature I agree with Panaeolus fimicola at least on paper.




Which literature? All I have is Gerhardt's but that's in German.

Can be rudimentarily translated with google but it isn't very effective for mushroom lingo.

I think I'll leave this in its little cardboard box until a later point. It will have to remain a '?'.


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InvisibleCham9085
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Re: Panaeolus vs. Psathyrella questions (id request) [Re: Anglerfish]
    #24227057 - 04/08/17 04:40 AM (6 years, 9 months ago)

psathyrella delineate is the closest physical resemblance I can find upon research. Has that already been ruled out after Fenarrio suggested it?


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OfflineAnglerfishM
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Re: Panaeolus vs. Psathyrella questions (id request) [Re: Cham9085]
    #24227075 - 04/08/17 05:01 AM (6 years, 9 months ago)

P. delineata doesn't occur in Norway - to my knowledge at least.

Also, it is normally larger than my tiny ones, and grows directly from wood - and not from soil, like mine do.


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Panaeolus vs. Psathyrella questions (id request) [Re: Anglerfish]
    #24227216 - 04/08/17 08:12 AM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Definitely Psathyrella, maybe something around P. corrugis.  Check microscopic features.


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Re: Panaeolus vs. Psathyrella questions (id request) [Re: Anglerfish]
    #24227435 - 04/08/17 10:11 AM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Anglerfish said:
Quote:

donjonson420 said:
Quote:

Anglerfish said:
Quote:

donjonson420 said:
Not Panaeolus.  Perhaps Parasola.




Are you pointing to my find? What makes you lean towards that suggestion?

Thanks for contributing! :thumbup:




After revisiting the literature I agree with Panaeolus fimicola at least on paper.




Which literature? All I have is Gerhardt's but that's in German.

Can be rudimentarily translated with google but it isn't very effective for mushroom lingo.

I think I'll leave this in its little cardboard box until a later point. It will have to remain a '?'.




You can find the translated version here http://mushroomobserver.org/name/show_name_description/5154 , I also found a few papers on researchgate.net. The sporeprint really had me convinced but its a tough call as many features seem off for Panaeolus.


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