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OfflineFaytrow
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Registered: 02/02/17
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Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
Beginner - Can't get PF Jars to colonize
    #24164697 - 03/15/17 04:20 PM (7 years, 9 months ago)

Hello, I've been a long time reader here on Shroomery but I have really been struggling getting a grow to get off the ground, so I'm reaching out for help.

I'm currently on my 9th grow attempt (over the course of about 14 months) and I have yet to get a PF jar to colonize more than 20% of the way. I don't think it's contaminates, but I also am a noobie and might not be noticing something. I've been aiming to do a simple 12-jar Brown Rice Flour + Vermiculite grow with a Golden Teacher cubie. All of the spores were obtained from various Shroomery sponsored vendors.

In sequential order, my current process is:

Preparation
-Dispose of Litter, Trash, Dirty Dishes, left out food, etc
-Take house plants outside
-Vacuum all carpet/rugs
-Turn off heat/AC
-Clean Kitchen REALLY well (vents, under the fridge, every counter/wall/surface, sweep/mop)
-Wipe down inside of cupboard above refrigerator with a liberal amount of rubbing alcohol (This will be the incubation area as it stays about 75-77°F compared to the rest of the house which is about 73°F)

Substrate
-Grind organic brown rice in blender (dry grind blade) until flour-fine
-Mix 6 cups vermiculite with 3 cups distilled water until evenly mixed
-Add 3 cups of the BRF to the mixture
-Add in a small amount of Gypsum (About 1-2 Tbs, only did this step on the most recent 2 grow attempts)
-Mix until substrate is evenly mixed (I use a Kitchen-Aid hand-mixer with a whisk head until it's very mixed and light)

Filling Jars/Sterilization
-Loosely fill 12 half-pint mason jars about 80% full (about 3/4in left at the top)
-Wipe the sides of the remaining space with a paper towel to remove any moisture/substrate
-Top off jar with dry vermiculite
-Place lids on jars with 4 circular holes punched through, about 2-3x the diameter of the spore-syringe needle
-Tape off the holes (To prevent additional moisture during sterilization)
-Cover jars with about 8x8" of aluminum foil
-Place jars in a pot (on a stone plate to raise them up off the bottom about 1.5in)
-Put 1-2 inches of water in the pot
-Cover the pot and bring to a roaring boil
-Reduce heat to med-low and let boil for 90 minutes
-Remove pot (and jars) from heat and let cool over night with the lid on.

Inoculation
-Place Syringes, Lighter, Rubbing Alcohol, Latex Gloves, and Tweezers next to pot of jars
-Put on gloves
-Wipe down entire work area with a liberal amount of rubbing alcohol (counter, walls, hands, syringes, lighter, tweezers, pot with jars, stove-top)
-Open pot and remove jars
-Wipe outside of 1 jar down (with foil on)
-Remove foil
-Wipe outside of the jar down (with tape on)
-Use sterile tweezers to remove tape
-Wipe down top of jar
-Wipe down closed syringe again
-Wipe down Lighter again
-Open Syringe
-Ignite lighter, hold syringe needle tip over flame until red hot
-Let cool for 5 seconds
-Inject .2mL-.25mL of spore solution into each hole
-Repeat previous steps for all 12 jars

Incubation
-Wipe down inside of cupboard over fridge again
-Place 12 jars inside cupboard
-Visually inspect jars once per week for signs of Mycelium for up to 8 weeks.



This is where I am struggling. Other than my first 2 attempts, I have NO idea why they aren't growing.

-My first attempt I accidentally left the tape on during incubation, so there wasn't enough Gas Exchange
-My second attempt I didn't tape the jars during sterilization, and they got extra moisture in them and it pooled at the bottom of the jar

For the other 6 though, I don't really know what to take away from them to get better =/

Most (about 90%) of my jars over the course of 8 attempted grows (12 jars each) have had NO growth at all, and the ones that DID begin to colonize only got about 10-20% through before stalling. They remained stalled for about 8-10 more weeks before I finally started to see a little light browning to the very edges of the mycelium, and I was pretty sure a contam had finally gotten in.

I haven't seen ANY signs of contaminates BEFORE the 8 week mark on any of the grows though. The vermiculite barrier seems to stay very dry, and there are no contaminates that I can identify visually.

When I finally dump the jars out, they all look the same as when I made them other than being a bit collapsed. They also have the same vermiculite/flour substrate smell, just stronger - nothing that smells bad.

Anyone have any advice? General advice is appreciated as I am obviously still an amateur of the highest caliber, but what I'm really looking for is a probable cause as to why these jars continue to fail time and time again.

I've REALLY enjoyed getting into mushroom cultivation and mycology (non-hallucinogenic as well) and I want to make it a lifelong hobby, but it's very demoralizing to continue to fail over and over without knowing why or being able to work to improve it.

Thanks everyone!

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Offlinemrmazdarx9
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Re: Beginner - Can't get PF Jars to colonize [Re: Faytrow]
    #24164703 - 03/15/17 04:24 PM (7 years, 9 months ago)

Pics would make it easier of the stalled out jars to check for contams. Are you letting the jars cool down fully before inoculation. Theres alot to read but it seems ok. You should be working in a still air box. Jars should see ambient light not shut in a dark cupboard we dont incubate so to speak they need be on a shelf in the open.


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OfflineFaytrow
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Re: Beginner - Can't get PF Jars to colonize [Re: mrmazdarx9]
    #24164712 - 03/15/17 04:28 PM (7 years, 9 months ago)

I will post some once I have some again. I just started a new grow about 10 days ago and forgot to snapshot the old ones, so right now they all look like freshly made jars. Still no growth though.

I am letting them cool about 8-10 hours. I leave them in the pot overnight.

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Offlinemrmazdarx9
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Re: Beginner - Can't get PF Jars to colonize [Re: Faytrow]
    #24164716 - 03/15/17 04:29 PM (7 years, 9 months ago)

Ok so youve used different syringes from different vendors also, so not the syringe. Defo dont shut them in a dark cupboard though


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OfflineFaytrow
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Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
Re: Beginner - Can't get PF Jars to colonize [Re: mrmazdarx9]
    #24164722 - 03/15/17 04:33 PM (7 years, 9 months ago)

Not the dark cupboard over the refrigerator? Could you explain why not?

I had read that light vs. dark made no difference really, and the cupboard above refrigerators was a decent spot as all of the heat generated by the fridge keeps the cupboard a few degrees warmer than the rest of the house.

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Offlinemrmazdarx9
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Re: Beginner - Can't get PF Jars to colonize [Re: Faytrow]
    #24164729 - 03/15/17 04:37 PM (7 years, 9 months ago)

Its proven light is beneficial and ive grown both ways and light makes a noticeable difference ime. Anything above room temperature isnt nessecary and making it too warm can encourage other contams. Also when colonising they generate their own heat so it will be warmer in the jar than room temp anyway.


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OfflineMarmie
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Re: Beginner - Can't get PF Jars to colonize [Re: Faytrow]
    #24164743 - 03/15/17 04:42 PM (7 years, 9 months ago)

A few things, you should be removing the foil from the jars while they cool so the verm layer dries back out , maybe try squirting a drop out or 2 to cool the syringe off it could still be hot enough to nuke the spores while your inoculating and you shouldnt incubate in a cuboard they benafit from ambient light , just put them on a shelf,  what temp is your house at?


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OfflineFaytrow
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Re: Beginner - Can't get PF Jars to colonize [Re: Marmie]
    #24166431 - 03/16/17 09:33 AM (7 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

A few things, you should be removing the foil from the jars while they cool so the verm layer dries back out , maybe try squirting a drop out or 2 to cool the syringe off it could still be hot enough to nuke the spores while your inoculating and you shouldnt incubate in a cuboard they benafit from ambient light , just put them on a shelf,  what temp is your house at?




Thermostat says 75° most of the time.

I haven't heard of removing the foil pre-cooling before. I didn't really think the top verm layer acquired much moisture during sterilization. Is the sterilization temp high enough to vaporize the water out of the verm/BRF?  Also doesn't this exposure before inoculation increase contaminate risk, especially if the barrier DOES have a small amount of moisture in it. Why isn't it be better to let it dry out after the spores have a headstart?

I will try placing my current jars in a lighter area, probably on a high shelf not near a vent.

I normally do let the needle cool, and I only light it once per jar, so at WORST it would only nuke the first inoc point right?

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Invisiblemynakedrat
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Re: Beginner - Can't get PF Jars to colonize [Re: Faytrow]
    #24166450 - 03/16/17 09:39 AM (7 years, 9 months ago)

I just had a batch of hats made, and when they wouldn't get past, say 40 percent, I opened them up and checked to see what's up. We'll, it turns out they were too dry. The myc was whispy and bluing. They just wouldn't keep going. Cakes were so hard, I had to use a butcher knife to break them up. It looks like you are  not putting enough water in yours. Try more than 3, add one more cuo/liter. I started using 1:1:1 verm rice water, and worked much better after PC.

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OfflineExplicitdetail
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Re: Beginner - Can't get PF Jars to colonize [Re: mynakedrat]
    #24166731 - 03/16/17 11:13 AM (7 years, 9 months ago)

What type of tape are you using on your lids. Colonizing jars need GE or they stall which seems to be what is happening.

Edit: Also consider using premade filter disks for your lids, I've used them 100's of times with great success

http://www.shroomsupply.com/air-filtration


--------------------
"Problems that remain persistently insoluble should always be suspected as questions asked in the wrong way."

Edited by Explicitdetail (03/16/17 11:17 AM)

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InvisibleTheMadHatter420
Trusted Farmer


Registered: 10/12/16
Posts: 12,943
Re: Beginner - Can't get PF Jars to colonize [Re: Explicitdetail]
    #24166866 - 03/16/17 11:58 AM (7 years, 9 months ago)

HEY! :hi:  Go get you a pressure cooker instead of a pot of boiling water. There is plenty of bacteria that can survive boiling water. This is why home caned foods, like soups and stews HAVE to go in a pressure cooker. It will make your life SOOOOO much easier! Presto 23Qt are a good buy. You can go smaller if you never plan on doing anything more than a few cakes. Otherwise get some thing like that Presto so It will hold 7 Quart jars. MAKE SURE IT WILL GO TO 15PSI!


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Beginner - Can't get PF Jars to colonize [Re: TheMadHatter420]
    #24166870 - 03/16/17 12:00 PM (7 years, 9 months ago)

Presto 23 holds 10 quart jars actually
The presto 16 holds 7

For 70 dollars the presto 23 is useful even if you grow once and never again. And it's great for food

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InvisibleTheMadHatter420
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Re: Beginner - Can't get PF Jars to colonize [Re: bodhisatta]
    #24167046 - 03/16/17 01:16 PM (7 years, 9 months ago)

With the 23 do you have to lay 3 on their side on top of the rest to get 10 in there? I could have sworn it was listed as 7, but I think they do not count any laid sideways as they assume your canning food.


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Beginner - Can't get PF Jars to colonize [Re: TheMadHatter420]
    #24167051 - 03/16/17 01:17 PM (7 years, 9 months ago)

Yes

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OfflineFaytrow
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Re: Beginner - Can't get PF Jars to colonize [Re: Explicitdetail]
    #24167162 - 03/16/17 02:09 PM (7 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

What type of tape are you using on your lids. Colonizing jars need GE or they stall which seems to be what is happening.

Edit: Also consider using premade filter disks for your lids, I've used them 100's of times with great succes




I am removing the tape after sterilization.

Edited by Faytrow (03/16/17 02:10 PM)

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OfflineFaytrow
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Re: Beginner - Can't get PF Jars to colonize [Re: mynakedrat]
    #24167169 - 03/16/17 02:12 PM (7 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:


I just had a batch of hats made, and when they wouldn't get past, say 40 percent, I opened them up and checked to see what's up. We'll, it turns out they were too dry. The myc was whispy and bluing. They just wouldn't keep going. Cakes were so hard, I had to use a butcher knife to break them up. It looks like you are  not putting enough water in yours. Try more than 3, add one more cuo/liter. I started using 1:1:1 verm rice water, and worked much better after PC.




That isn't too much water/flour? Cool. I'll try that next time.

Unfortunately most of my jars never even start, and I think I've only had 1 or 2 (out of 100+) even make it to 30%, and there should be plenty of water for that.

Edited by Faytrow (03/16/17 02:19 PM)

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OfflineFaytrow
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Re: Beginner - Can't get PF Jars to colonize [Re: TheMadHatter420]
    #24167174 - 03/16/17 02:16 PM (7 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

TheMadHatter420 said:
HEY! :hi:  Go get you a pressure cooker instead of a pot of boiling water. There is plenty of bacteria that can survive boiling water. This is why home caned foods, like soups and stews HAVE to go in a pressure cooker. It will make your life SOOOOO much easier! Presto 23Qt are a good buy. You can go smaller if you never plan on doing anything more than a few cakes. Otherwise get some thing like that Presto so It will hold 7 Quart jars. MAKE SURE IT WILL GO TO 15PSI!




I've been thinking about it, but I'm on a pretty tight budget most of the time and don't have much extra space in my apartment.

I want to get at least ONE jar to colonize before I go invest $70 and the space commitment to getting a PC. However, I know how much better they are though than a pot, and you can use a lot more types of substrate with them.

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OfflineFaytrow
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Re: Beginner - Can't get PF Jars to colonize [Re: Faytrow]
    #24262243 - 04/21/17 05:02 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Okay so it's been about 2.5 months since I started grow 9. For this grow I doubled the amount of spore solution I put in each jar (used two 10cc syringes for 12 half-pint jars). I also (based on recommendation her) moved 6 of the 12 jars (3 of each syringe) on to a shelf in the living room rather than the cupboard above the refridgerator.

7 out of 12 jars had the same issue as before. Zero growth. Not even the slightest sign of Mycelium or Contams alike. Barrier was still vastly dryer than the substrate, and the substrate did not smell bad either (smelled a lot like when I put it in).

HOWEVER!!!!!

5 of the 12 actually showed growth, and 2 in particular have shown a LOT of growth, but I have grown concerned.

The 2 jars that have grown the most are almost fully colonized (took over 13 weeks, but hey! They're almost there!) They grew super fast for the first 2 weeks, and then slowly over the course of 11 weeks have filled in the jar. However, I think they both may have acquired a contam last week =(

The other 3 grew a small amount within the first week or two, but have stalled since then. No contams yet

Here are a few pictures. The first 2 are of the ones I think are contaminated.

Can anyone confirm if this is contam or just a wet spot? Or if anyone has more insight from the photos in relation to the OP.






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