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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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homothallic or heterothallic, what's the current way mycologists define this
    #24156043 - 03/12/17 12:03 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

so I have learned that Cubensis is homothallic because you can take a spore print from 1 mushroom, and be able to yield new mushroom producing strains.

however in literature and some other places I find that according to definition cubensis would be heterothallic since spores are not self fertile but require another compatible mating type from another spore to make a dikaryotic strain. those two spores however may come from the same mushroom. but a single spore does not contain appropriate genetics to carry out the entire life cycle by itself.

the confusion is whether currently in mycology we view cubensis and similar species as homothallic or do we call them heterothallic.

if we go by the definition that we don't need to separate fruit bodies then it would be homothallic,
but it's not homothallic in the sense that a single spore can be viable for the whole life cycle



Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Homothallic because spores from the same cap are capable of breeding to form new mushrooms.  Heterothallic spores need to mate with an individual from another fruiting body.

Bifactorial because of the A and B mating types.
RR




Quote:

fastfred said:
Cubensis is heterothallic, tetrapolar, and bi-factorial.

Meaning that individual spores are not self-fertile and require mating with another spore to form a diploid individual.  Tetrapolar means that the initial diploid, dikaryon germ cell undergoes meiosis twice to form 4 haploid spores.  Bi-factorial means that there are two mating factors involved, which gives rise to 4 possible mating types from each individual.

There has been some confusion surrounding hetero vs homothallic.  In botany heterothallic is usually used to mean that the sexual structures occur in different plants.  In other types of biology it usually means that the sexual organs simply reside in separate structures, meaning that no individual structure is self-fertile.  So the meaning depends on what kingdom and species you are talking about.  That's why there has been some confusion.


-FF




Quote:

fastfred said:
It seems that maybe I'm not up to date on the current usage of homothallic vs heterothallic...

Quote:

heterothallic, homothallic

This term gets used in two senses...

Blakeslee:  When Albert Francis Blakeslee discovered mating types in the genus Mucor, he called fungi with definite mating types heterothallic, and fungi without mating types homothallic.

Current Usage:  More usually, nowadays, we call a fungus that produces both "male" and "female" reproductive cells homothallic if cells from the same fungal individual can fertilize each other, and heterothallic if the gametes can only be fertilized by gametes from another individual.




So I guess now we're redefining scientific terms away from what they were when coined.  I think that's a pretty poor idea since a huge proportion of the literature will now be wrong and it will take a long time to sort out the confusion.

-FF





and then there's this from a textbook

excerpt from:
mushroom biology: concise basics and current developments

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/24154074

Homothallism

The term homothallism was used to designate life cycles of species in which
the sexual cycle is completed by a single thallus that arose from a single spore. Such species are basically self-fertile. There are, however, different types of homothallism, referred to as primary and secondary homothallism.

Primary homothallism occurs when a homokaryotic mycelium develops from a single spore which contained a single post-meiotic nucleus. There is only one case among the edible mushrooms of primary homothallism. The straw mushroom, Volvariella volvacea, has for some time been cited as a primary homothallic mushroom, but, in spite of numerous studies, there are still some details of the life cycle that have escaped explanation, but the evidence still points in the direction of V. volvacea being a primary homothallic species.

In secondary homothallism, a mating type system is operative. In basidiomycetes,
following meiosis the meiotic nuclei {i.e., the haploid nuclei resulting from meiosis) enter the basidiospores. When two compatible nuclei enter the same spore, that spore will produce a mycelium that is self-fertile, so that the species behaving in this way is homothallic. Such secondarily homothallic species commonly have 2-spored basidia. This is the case with the common cultivated mushroom Agaricus bisporus. If the meiotic nuclei enter the basidiospores randomly, not all of the spores will be self-fertile because of the existence of a unifactorial (bipolar) mating type system with compatibility requiring the presence of different alleles. For example, following meiosis there will be two nuclei bearing one mating type allele which we shall designate Ax, and two nuclei will bear a compatible mating type
allele which we will call Ay. Because of this, two-thirds of the spores will contain both Ax and Ay alleles and will be self-fertile, and one-third will be self-sterile because they contain either AxAx or Ay Ay. In A bisporus there are also rare 3- and 4-spored basidia which form spores that produce sterile mycelia, but may be cross-fertile according to the unifactorial (bipolar) pattern of sexuality (see section that follows on unifactorial heterothallism).


Heterothallism
In heterothallism, different compatible thalli must come together for sexual
reproduction to occur and the life cycle to be completed. Notice that these thalli must be compatible, indicating that an incompatibility system operates as is true in secondary homothallism described above. Since the discovery of heterothallism in basidiomycetes by Kniep and by Bensaude during the period at the end of World War I, it has been documented that two types of incompatibility systems occur. These are known as bipolar incompatibility (also referred to as bipolarity or heterothallism with unifactorial control), and tetrapolar incompatibility (also referred to as tetrapolarity or heterothallism with bifactorial control).

Let us consider first the basic events involved in heterothallism. Basidiospores
germinate to give rise to mycelia. The mycelium from a single basidiospore will be
homokaryotic with haploid nuclei. When homokaryotic mycelia are confronted, hyphal
fusions (plasmogamy) will take place. If the confrontation is between compatible mycelia, the nuclei from one mycelium will migrate through the hyphae of the other mycelium. This movement of nuclei through the established hyphae of another mycelium is called nuclear migration. When a migrant nucleus reaches a tip cell of the resident mycelium with a compatible nucleus, a dikaryotic condition is established. You will recall that a dikaryon is the situation in which two compatible nuclei co-exist unfused in the same cell. Remember also that the dikaryotic condition is maintained by the formation of clamp connections in growing hyphae and that the mycelium formed is called secondary mycelium in contrast to the unclamped, homokaryotic mycelium that arises from a single basidiospore, which is called
primary mycelium. Under proper nutritional and environmental conditions, and with the
presence of certain genes that are required for fruiting, in addition to the mating type genes, mushrooms will develop. The dikaryon is initially present in the basidium, but soon the two compatible nuclei of the dikaryon fuse. This nuclear fusion process is the stage in sexuality called karyogamy, which produces a diploid nucleus. The diploid nucleus very soon undergoes meiosis, the stage which makes this a true sexual process. Meiosis is a two-stage reductional division process that converts the diploid nucleus into four haploid nuclei. Short stalks called sterigmata (sing., sterigma) develop on the basidia and the haploid nuclei pass through the sterigmata into the four basidiospores that develop on the sterigmata. So starting
with a basidiospore we have now completed the cycle and returned back to the basidiospore state.

Unifactorial heterothallism (bipolarity) is controlled by a single mating factor,
known as the A mating type factor. It is generally true in unifactorial heterothallism as well as in bifactorial heterothallism that multiple alleles are present at the mating type factors. Compatibility requires that the mating type of confronting mycelia in a mating be different. For example, confrontation of homokaryotic mycelium of mating type Ax with homokaryotic mycelium of mating type Ay, following hyphal fusion and nuclear migration, will lead to the formation of dikaryotic mycelium (Ax + Ay). This dikaryotic mycelium, under appropriate nutritional and environmental conditions, has the potential of developing into a mushroom. In the basidia of the mushroom, the dikaryotic nuclei will fuse (karyogamy) producing a diploid nucleus (AxAy) which undergoes meiotic division resulting in the formation of four nuclei of mating types Ax,Ax, Ay,Ay. As described earlier, these nuclei pass into the basidiospores, two of which will develop into homokaryotic mycelia of mating type Ax and two of mating type Ay. Confrontations of two mycelia from a collection of random single spore isolates thus have a 50% likelihood of being compatible. Agaricus bisporus has already been described as having a unifactorial heterothallic system, but it does not produce clamp connections. The edible mushroom, Pholiota nameko, on the other hand, not only has a unifactorial heterothallic life cycle, but produces a secondary mycelium with clamp connections.

Bifactorial heterothallism (tetrapolarity) was the pattern of sexuality worked out
by Kniep in Schizophyllum commune and by Bensaude in Coprinus fimetarius. It is more
complicated than unifactorial heterothallism because there are two mating type factors, known as the A and B factors, that are operative. Also, there are multiple alleles at both factors, which have been demonstrated to be unlinked. The consequence of this is that the basidiospores from a single mushroom are of four mating types {e.g., AxBx, AxBy, AyBx, AyBy) which occur in a ratio of 1:1:1:1. It has been shown in many species that only those combinations which are heteroallelic for both mating type factors are completely compatible {e.g., AxBx x AyBy and AxBy x AyBx). It is the compatible confrontations which may form secondary mycelia with clamp connections and which may lead to the formation of a mushroom. Mycelia derived from single spore isolates when confronted pairwise will give compatible reactions in only one-fourth of the cases. However, with a high incidence of multiple alleles at each mating type locus, the opportunity for compatible mycelia getting together is quite high, and thus there is a greater chance for outbreeding to occur than inbreeding. Cultivated mushrooms with bifactorial incompatibility include: Lentinula edodes, Pleurotus ostreatus, Pleurotus sajor-caju, Flammulina velutipes, Auricularia polytricha,
and Tremellafuciformis.


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Invisiblelipa

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Re: homothallic or heterothallic, what's the current way mycologists define this [Re: bodhisatta]
    #24156173 - 03/12/17 12:51 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Cubensis is heterothallic. Cubensis spore's nuclei are haploid. 

The offspring of a  (I should say each) Cubensis mushroom has many sexes.

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Re: homothallic or heterothallic, what's the current way mycologists define this [Re: lipa]
    #24156178 - 03/12/17 12:55 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

that's what I thought. (thanks for checking this out)

then begs the question why would RR say homothallic.
was back in the day the defining argument whether a single mushroom or more than one mushroom had to contribute. which seems silly compared to the genetic definition.

pan bisporus vs other pan species.
is pan bisporus homothallic then?  (secondary homothallic?)


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Re: homothallic or heterothallic, what's the current way mycologists define this [Re: bodhisatta]
    #24156185 - 03/12/17 12:57 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

He is wrong.

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Re: homothallic or heterothallic, what's the current way mycologists define this [Re: lipa]
    #24156189 - 03/12/17 12:59 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

haha happens to the best of us.
was confusing me for a bit like maybe I was really just reading something wrong.

you know anything about pan bisporus vs the pans with 4 spore basidium ?


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Re: homothallic or heterothallic, what's the current way mycologists define this [Re: bodhisatta]
    #24156204 - 03/12/17 01:06 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Pans with 4 spore basidia have two spored basidia as well so i am not sure how that works out. Copelandia bisporus may be secondary homothalism bifactoral.

Edited by lipa (03/12/17 01:11 PM)

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Re: homothallic or heterothallic, what's the current way mycologists define this [Re: lipa]
    #24156213 - 03/12/17 01:11 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

after Meiosis the diploid nucleus becomes four haploid nuclei.
these would usually migrate to the 4 basidiospores

but in a "bisporus species" those 4 haploid nuclei migrate into the 2 available basidiospores

Ax Ax Ay Ay

of which recombination gives 2/3 probability of AxAy or AyAx in a spore and 1/3 probability of AxAx or AyAy

so it should be homo unless I'm missing something

but if a regular pan has on occasion 2 spored basidia then they too may be what I would call
facultative homothallic?


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Re: homothallic or heterothallic, what's the current way mycologists define this [Re: bodhisatta]
    #24156222 - 03/12/17 01:14 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I have pictures of bisporus mycelia somewhere. I am pretty sure there is only 2 nuclei per cell. So maybe not secondary homothalic uniifactoral.

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Re: homothallic or heterothallic, what's the current way mycologists define this [Re: lipa]
    #24156271 - 03/12/17 01:46 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

most psilocybes occasionally produce 2 spore basidia so those spores could be germinated to crate monokaryotic and viable fruiting strains?
but would they not combine to form clamp connections in a dikaryotic state if they run into compatible hypae?

I think I'm confusing myself more now hah. homothallic species can still produce dikaryotic mycelium no?

I found this too
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15974537#15974537
Quote:

inski said:
These fungi are known as Homothallic and are capable of mating with themselves, there are two types of Homothallic Fungi, primary and secondary, at first when Primary Homothallic spores germinate the hyphae are monokaryotic but after a period of growth they become dikaryotic and are capable of forming fruit bodies.

In Secondary Homothallic Fungi the spores have one nucleus of each mating type and are dikaryotic upon germination and are therefore able to produce fruit bodies immediately, Agaricus brunnescens is a good example of a Secondary Homothallic Fungi.

Basically, Homothallism is the ability of a single organism to reproduce sexually.

Also, of interest to you might be the possibility of some higher Fungi to reproduce asexually, the mycelium of many Fungi in the Strophariaceae are capable of producing asexual conidia, I have recently found some evidence of this in Psilocybe galindoi, it has been proven in Hypholoma, Psilocybe, Stropharia, Pholiota and Kuehneromyces species.

I hope my explanation is of use to you, if not do some research on Homothallic Fungi.



"but after a period of growth they become dikaryotic and are capable of forming fruit bodies."
and
"In Secondary Homothallic Fungi the spores have one nucleus of each mating type and are dikaryotic upon germination and are therefore able to produce fruit bodies immediately, Agaricus brunnescens is a good example of a Secondary Homothallic Fungi."

so pan bisporus would have multinucleate mycelium anyway ?


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Edited by bodhisatta (03/12/17 01:56 PM)

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