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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Obama vs Trump - Who's better for middle class America???
    #24148711 - 03/09/17 12:05 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

There's been a lot of strong support for Donald Trump in these forums, and I've even been cautiously optimistic about him.

But interestingly, no one came to his defense when I asked how he plans to make Affordable Care better than what Obama's given us, or how any of his policies thus far would economically benefit middle class America.


So I'm starting this thread to see if any Trump supporters can actually tell me what he's specifically doing to make middle class America great again.

:popcorn:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Obama vs Trump - Who's better for middle class America??? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #24148756 - 03/09/17 12:23 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah, apparently the medical establishment -- doctors, hospitals, etc. -- have expressed great dismay over the current health care proposal. Obviously, what that means is that the system would be far too expensive for them. And Fal is right -- there is no indication that Trump is actually going to work hard for the middle class. So far, he has put forth proposals that would not help but in fact hurt quite a lot -- including the health care legislation, among other things. So I too am quite eager to hear from a Trump supporter how much Trump's populist rhetoric is actually going to result in concrete steps to help the middle class. It's not looking so good so far.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Obama vs Trump - Who's better for middle class America??? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 2
    #24148802 - 03/09/17 12:40 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I'll be the first to admit that Obama hasn't done a whole lot for working America outside of Healthcare reform.  But Trump actually appears to be taking from working America so he can give the rich (including himself) more tax cuts, which will have disastrous results for working Americans.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Obama vs Trump - Who's better for middle class America??? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24148849 - 03/09/17 01:03 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

If Trump were actually able to implement economic tariffs, deport illegals, limit legal immigration and have a massive infrastructure program, then yes the middle class would greatly benefit, but none of those things are ever going to happen. :shrug:

We will be left with nothing more than a tax cut for corporations and wealthy individuals who WILL not reinvest the proceeds into a shitty economic environment.

Trump supporters need a good kick in the ass just like Obama supporters got, maybe then and only then will the people wakeup and see the truth. Nobody is going to improve your life by pushing their button in a voting booth, it doesn't work that way.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Obama vs Trump - Who's better for middle class America??? [Re: qman] * 2
    #24148889 - 03/09/17 01:25 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
If Trump were actually able to implement economic tariffs...



He is able to.

Quote:

qman said:
...deport illegals...



He can, and already is, doing that.

Quote:

qman said:
...and have a massive infrastructure program, then yes the middle class would greatly benefit



He'll need some help to get infrastructure spending approved, but I think Congress agrees its a good idea if it can be paid for.  The problem is that Trump wants tax cuts for the rich more than he wants an infrastructure program, so that likely won't happen because of his own greed (that's the problem with electing someone with money - a conflict of interest).

Quote:

qman said:
Nobody is going to improve your life by pushing their button in a voting booth, it doesn't work that way.



It does if you vote for the right people.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Obama vs Trump - Who's better for middle class America??? [Re: qman] * 4
    #24148896 - 03/09/17 01:27 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Obviously Obama, but thats not saying much.


I agree with qman that were Trump able to implement those changes, provided thats actually what he wants and wasnt just campaign rhetoric, it would probably help the middle class.

But this is why I've explained over and over on this subforum, since Bernie dropped out and endorsed Hillary: her getting elected is a better outcome for the nation as a whole, because its the party who runs things (especially in a supermajority), not the person in the oval. Sure, the president guides policy, but nothing gets done without the legislature.

So instead of a red house, blue senate, and Hillary situation (where we probably would've got a slight tax increase on the rich, maybe some public college subsidy program, and a few other scraps) now we get red house red senate and Donald. And despite what Donald might want deep down inside, all the people of the United States will get is higher insurance premiums, more tax cuts for the rich, more money to the military, and a further deregulated corporate industry (which wont create lasting jobs, if any).

The free market has failed. the GOP model has failed. Thats why the voters went for Donald, and kudos to them for not picking an establishment douchelord, but they fucked up and reelected nearly every fucking incumbent on the Hill, so now we get the establishment agenda anyway. Only instead of establishment single payer healthcare, and establishment sane tax policy, we get blatant corporate handout establishment.

And meanwhile, Dems still can't learn their fucking lesson. Probably rigged the DNC vote in favor of Perez, despite every single prominent Dem endorsing Ellison, not to mention dozens of unions and activist groups.

So now we just get to be held down and raped for 4 years. At least. But at least we have funny memes. lol!


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Offlineqman
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Re: Obama vs Trump - Who's better for middle class America??? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24148913 - 03/09/17 01:36 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
If Trump were actually able to implement economic tariffs...



He is able to.

Quote:

qman said:
...deport illegals...



He can, and already is, doing that.

Quote:

qman said:
...and have a massive infrastructure program, then yes the middle class would greatly benefit



He'll need some help to get infrastructure spending approved, but I think Congress agrees its a good idea if it can be paid for.  The problem is that Trump wants tax cuts for the rich more than he wants an infrastructure program, so that likely won't happen because of his own greed (that's the problem with electing someone with money - a conflict of interest).

Quote:

qman said:
Nobody is going to improve your life by pushing their button in a voting booth, it doesn't work that way.



It does if you vote for the right people.




I would have more faith in Trump being able to accomplish economic tariffs, deportation and limited legal immigration IF he had even ONE Congress member supporting those issues, but that's not the case today.

"vote for the right people"

When they bought and paid for like we have today, none of them are "the right people".

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Offlinekoods
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Re: Obama vs Trump - Who's better for middle class America??? [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #24148917 - 03/09/17 01:38 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

His entire premise that trade is what is killing middle class jobs, especially manufacturing, is bullshit. Manufacturing output is at an all time high. 90% of manufacturing jobs since 2000 have been lost to automation. Addressing the increasing obsolescence of human labor would be a refreshing thing to see from a politician.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Obama vs Trump - Who's better for middle class America??? [Re: qman]
    #24148919 - 03/09/17 01:38 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
When they're bought and paid for like we have today, none of them are "the right people".



That's my point.  We need to stop voting for officials who are bought and paid for.  We need to start voting for people like Bernie Sanders.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Obama vs Trump - Who's better for middle class America??? [Re: koods] * 3
    #24148934 - 03/09/17 01:43 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
His entire premise that trade is what is killing middle class jobs, especially manufacturing, is bullshit. Manufacturing output is at an all time high. 90% of manufacturing jobs since 2000 have been lost to automation. Addressing the increasing obsolescence of human labor would be a refreshing thing to see from a politician.




I can agree with you on that issue, the political ramifications for stating the destruction of jobs from technology and automation is a dangerous path for the elite.

They would rather do what they always do- blame labor for labor's problems.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Obama vs Trump - Who's better for middle class America??? [Re: koods]
    #24148945 - 03/09/17 01:45 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Addressing the increasing obsolescence of human labor would be a refreshing thing to see from a politician.



According to the Economic Policy Institute (EPI), whom I've gained a lot of respect for because they're usually right about things, automation isn't the problem.  I've been saying that as well, as we've been automating things since the early 1900's.  According to EPI:

Quote:

We need to give the robot scare a rest. Robots are not leading to mass joblessness and are not the cause of wage stagnation or growing wage inequality. Instead, we should focus on policy choices that lead to things that truly threaten workers and their families like eroding labor standards, declining unionization, elevated unemployment, unbalanced globalization, and declining top tax rates.




--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Obama vs Trump - Who's better for middle class America??? [Re: koods]
    #24149103 - 03/09/17 02:39 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
His entire premise that trade is what is killing middle class jobs, especially manufacturing, is bullshit. Manufacturing output is at an all time high. 90% of manufacturing jobs since 2000 have been lost to automation. Addressing the increasing obsolescence of human labor would be a refreshing thing to see from a politician.




The solutions to the impending jobless economy would be things like a huge increase in corporate taxes, massive expansions of social programs, universal basic income, socialism, or any combination of the above.

Not even Bernie Sanders is bold enough to advocate those solutions to the average American voter.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Obama vs Trump - Who's better for middle class America??? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #24149155 - 03/09/17 03:09 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
The solutions to the impending jobless economy would be things like a huge increase in corporate taxes, massive expansions of social programs, universal basic income, socialism, or any combination of the above.

Not even Bernie Sanders is bold enough to advocate those solutions to the average American voter.



But we're still a LONG way from a jobless economy, which is easily proven by the current low unemployment rate, the fact that the people who are working are working harder than ever, and some other evidence in the link I posted above.

As the EPI article mentions, we should focus on eroding labor standards, declining unionization, elevated unemployment, unbalanced globalization, and declining top tax rates.  These are ALL things Bernie addressed.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Obama vs Trump - Who's better for middle class America??? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24149176 - 03/09/17 03:17 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Of course, I'm not opposed to those measures being taken, just that they are only stop gaps.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Obama vs Trump - Who's better for middle class America??? [Re: The Ecstatic] * 2
    #24149254 - 03/09/17 03:49 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I don't foresee a jobless economy happening in our lifetime.

Even if it does, the solution is very simple; cut the workweek from 40 hours to whatever number we have jobs for, and increase pay accordingly (which will be very easy to do, because companies would still sell the same or more product than they do today).


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Obama vs Trump - Who's better for middle class America??? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #24149520 - 03/09/17 06:10 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

So no support for Trump other than qman saying "none of those things are ever going to happen"???

That's a surprise to me considering how much people said they believed in him.  Actually, it's not a surprise given that I'm personally not aware of Trump doing anything at all for the working class.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Obama vs Trump - Who's better for middle class America??? [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #24149572 - 03/09/17 06:41 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I don't foresee a jobless economy happening in our lifetime.

Even if it does, the solution is very simple; cut the workweek from 40 hours to whatever number we have jobs for, and increase pay accordingly (which will be very easy to do, because companies would still sell the same or more product than they do today).




Noone in America is gonna cut the work week willingly. If we have higher efficiency, then that means I get more labor per dollar, not you get more dollar per hour.

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
So no support for Trump other than qman saying "none of those things are ever going to happen"???

That's a surprise to me considering how much people said they believed in him.  Actually, it's not a surprise given that I'm personally not aware of Trump doing anything at all for the working class.




I see similar silences all over social media. The few people that are still spouting Trump rhetoric all over my facebook feed all make over half a mil a year.

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

koods said:
His entire premise that trade is what is killing middle class jobs, especially manufacturing, is bullshit. Manufacturing output is at an all time high. 90% of manufacturing jobs since 2000 have been lost to automation. Addressing the increasing obsolescence of human labor would be a refreshing thing to see from a politician.




The solutions to the impending jobless economy would be things like a huge increase in corporate taxes, massive expansions of social programs, universal basic income, socialism, or any combination of the above.

Not even Bernie Sanders is bold enough to advocate those solutions to the average American voter.




While I mostly support the sentiment, and have in the past (and likely will in the future) defend these things, I doubt they will work for more than 60-80 years before someone comes up with some loophole that was up until then physically impossible.

Social security was a great idea when it came out, cause people got paid out for five years and died. It was physically impossible to live long enough to make the system not work. Well, modern medicine fixed that little problem, and now social security is a bloated beast of a mess that eats a quarter of the budget but can't be repealed without screwing a few decades worth of people.

I still think this is what's necessary. What is improvement, if not incremental stacking of stop-gaps?

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Obama vs Trump - Who's better for middle class America??? [Re: Kryptos] * 2
    #24149733 - 03/09/17 07:58 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I don't foresee a jobless economy happening in our lifetime.

Even if it does, the solution is very simple; cut the workweek from 40 hours to whatever number we have jobs for, and increase pay accordingly (which will be very easy to do, because companies would still sell the same or more product than they do today).




Noone in America is gonna cut the work week willingly. If we have higher efficiency, then that means I get more labor per dollar, not you get more dollar per hour.



Of course.  Government would have to redefine the work-week and mandate wage adjustments accordingly.

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Social security was a great idea when it came out, cause people got paid out for five years and died. It was physically impossible to live long enough to make the system not work. Well, modern medicine fixed that little problem, and now social security is a bloated beast of a mess that eats a quarter of the budget but can't be repealed without screwing a few decades worth of people.



We simply need to remove the SSI cap and make the rich pay in 6% like everyone else has to pay.  Then Social Security would have a very nice surplus.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Obama vs Trump - Who's better for middle class America??? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24149786 - 03/09/17 08:17 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I don't foresee a jobless economy happening in our lifetime.

Even if it does, the solution is very simple; cut the workweek from 40 hours to whatever number we have jobs for, and increase pay accordingly (which will be very easy to do, because companies would still sell the same or more product than they do today).




Noone in America is gonna cut the work week willingly. If we have higher efficiency, then that means I get more labor per dollar, not you get more dollar per hour.



Of course.  Government would have to redefine the work-week and mandate wage adjustments accordingly.

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Social security was a great idea when it came out, cause people got paid out for five years and died. It was physically impossible to live long enough to make the system not work. Well, modern medicine fixed that little problem, and now social security is a bloated beast of a mess that eats a quarter of the budget but can't be repealed without screwing a few decades worth of people.



We simply need to remove the SSI cap and make the rich pay in 6% like everyone else has to pay.  Then Social Security would have a very nice surplus.




As the recent election demonstrated, most people don't seem to want the government to go ahead and restructure the work week and wage adjustments. Especially now that business magnates are apparently presidential contenders. I'd be less surprised if the government extended the week an additional 20 hours and got rid of overtime pay as a concept.

As for your second point, well, see above.

Again, these are all things that would work in a perfect world, or even any world in which the primary indicator of success isn't how many people you stepped on to get where you were. And it is, zeros in the bank are just a measurement of how hard you put your foot down.

Reminds me of the prisoner's dilemma.

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Re: Obama vs Trump - Who's better for middle class America??? [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #24149987 - 03/09/17 09:45 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

crab mentality


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