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OfflineTravelAgency
The ongoing "wow"


Registered: 12/25/10
Posts: 4,431
Last seen: 1 year, 23 days
Re: double extract alcohol or hot water first [Re: micelio]
    #24123575 - 02/27/17 12:50 PM (6 years, 11 months ago)

Hey micelio! Good to see you :wave:


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Invisiblemicelio
Song of Silence
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Registered: 04/22/14
Posts: 1,547
Re: double extract alcohol or hot water first [Re: TravelAgency]
    #24124631 - 02/27/17 08:01 PM (6 years, 11 months ago)

Hey... My friend TA.. So nice to see you giving wedges away... Giving is much more gratifying than receiving...  You have a kind heart.... You and others on this site is what makes this site so special.


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OfflineTravelAgency
The ongoing "wow"


Registered: 12/25/10
Posts: 4,431
Last seen: 1 year, 23 days
Re: double extract alcohol or hot water first [Re: micelio]
    #24125316 - 02/28/17 05:45 AM (6 years, 11 months ago)

I would say the same of you my friend! I was really happy to see so many people I knew when I came back from my break- I'm seriously considering trying to go full scale. The restaurant industry is rewarding but taxing. And I'd honestly rather be tending to my mushrooms than dealing with rude people (mostly- there are truly life changing people you will meet in the Service Industry- but you will have to trudge through a ton of shit to get to them- it's worth it- but it takes its toll on your sense of humanity). Thanks for being one of those people who helped cultivate my cultivation curiosity. :smile:


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Invisibleskullphuxxx
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Registered: 05/02/13
Posts: 341
Loc: Smurfs village
Re: double extract alcohol or hot water first [Re: Gr0wer]
    #24125448 - 02/28/17 08:04 AM (6 years, 11 months ago)



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Offlinebeerbellyacher
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Registered: 02/25/17
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Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
Re: double extract alcohol or hot water first [Re: Gr0wer]
    #24125673 - 02/28/17 10:04 AM (6 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Gr0wer said:
I don't think you fully understand how to make a tincture. You would never want to boil the alcohol extraction, it would remove the alcohol that later stabilizes the decoction. Check out some youtube vid's.




Nah, I just think I could use words a little better :smile: I just had my cup of coffee, let's break it down.

It's a chicken or the egg discussion. Which comes first? The question is which extraction do we do first to not only maximize the potential quantity of extracted material, but also to ensure we get a full spectrum extraction and not denature any of the multitude of polysaccharides or triterpenes that we are seeking to extract. The end goal is to have a product that contains the most goodies from both sides of the extraction equation to give us a tincture that has maximum health benefits and is shelf stable.

The water side of this equation picks up the water soluble polysaccharides whereas the alcohol side will grab the triterpenes that are alcohol soluble.

So, do we extract to alcohol then take your mushroom plop and do the water decoction? Or, do we decoct, reserve that decoction that is susceptible to microbial contamination via refrigeration or freezing, and then do the alcohol extraction? Either way at the end, we are combining the two in a form that has enough EtOH to make it "shelf stable".

The question would be does soaking the material in alcohol for 4-6 weeks destroy any of the material we seek to extract via a water decoction? I don't know enough to answer that. Does doing a water decoction first destroy any of the material we seek to gain via the alcohol extraction? I don't know enough to answer that. Since I can't answer those questions, I feel that doing four extractions and combining them is the answer.

It seems that most people are in agreement that, if only for the reason of the resulting end product being more palatable, the alcohol extraction comes first. That's great, I agree. It seems to me that this would be the best way to do it. My science brain is not yet satisfied, tho, knowing that we are still potentially destroying something desired that would we gain from the decoction by soaking in alcohol for 4-6 weeks first.

So, as has previously been suggested, we use fresh mushrooms for both sides of the equation, eliminating the possibility for the two aforementioned problems. Problem solved, right? YEP! Well, kind of. This creates another problem. Waste. We are potentially wasting mushrooms we could have used to make another batch of tincture.

So, here is my suggestion. Why not do four extractions, reduce via evap, then combine those, eliminating any possible waste and potentially doubling the strength of the tincture in the process?

Quote:

You would never want to boil the alcohol extraction, it would remove the alcohol that later stabilizes the decoction.




That is not what I am saying. You will still end up with the same amount of liquid, both water and alcohol, in the end.

I doubt we are dealing with a saturated solution, so we should be able to strengthen the extract on both sides thru reduction. Why not do your alcohol extraction on one batch of mushrooms then take that same batch and do a water decoction, reserve both halves separately. Now (or at the same time) take your other batch of mushrooms, do a decoction first - freeze or use proper sanitary procedures to store this decoction, and then do an alcohol extraction on that second batch of mushrooms. We can then take the alcohol portion and evap it, combining the resulting goo containing all the goodies with the first alcohol extraction. It should dissolve into the alcohol, doubling the strength of the extract, unless the solution is saturated, which i highly doubt it is. We could then take both of the water extracts and boil to reduce by half. This would eliminate the potential degradation of any of any key compounds thru process, and potentially double any that did not get destroyed thru process, leaving you with the same amount of tincture in the end and satisfaction you are not missing a key element thru process error.

Is it more work than it would be worth? Probably, but it will help me sleep at night! After typing this, I feel that one must also assume that if we are combining the alcohol portion with the water portion at the end, anything gained from decocting first that would have been destroyed by the alcohol soak would now start being destroyed in the combined tincture. Regardless, that should double the strength without that much extra work?

I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about.

Thoughts?


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Invisiblemicelio
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Registered: 04/22/14
Posts: 1,547
Re: double extract alcohol or hot water first [Re: skullphuxxx]
    #24125679 - 02/28/17 10:08 AM (6 years, 11 months ago)

Thanks skull

I have allot of respect for Forrester and all his contributions to this site....


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OfflineGr0wer
always improving
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Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 6,056
Loc: El Paso, TX Flag
Last seen: 5 years, 11 months
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Re: double extract alcohol or hot water first [Re: micelio]
    #24127262 - 02/28/17 09:44 PM (6 years, 11 months ago)

I want to say its safe to say some compounds will break down with heat, so its beneficial to do the cold alcohol extraction first. and a normal strength extraction decoction without reduction is more then potent enough for a good dose. Also i cant charge $20 an oz if it was 2x.


On the bottle note, i was able to score some 2oz for less than 50 cents each shipped on amazon, and 1oz for 60 cents. It took a bit of shopping around and checking the deals but i got about 500 bottles at low prices.


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