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OfflineSkagitHunter
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Religion's negative effect on mental health
    #24123021 - 02/27/17 09:08 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

A friend of mine recently passed away. He had an aneurism after a long battle with alcoholism, I'm not sure if they are related, but that's not relative to the discussion. He was troubled. And deeply religious. At his funeral the pastor told us how Tony used to say he had demons inside of him. The pastor sat and prayed and cried with him.

I can't help but think the "demons" were actually mental illness he needed help with. Not some BS let's say some words. I think having someone to talk to was good, but that's where it stops. Counseling only goes so far before you need to see a real doctor to get either actual therapy or medication. I know this from my own experience of being manic depressive.

My brother in law also suffered from mental illness when he passed. Actually he was killed by the state patrol during a psychotic episode. He had been diving deeper into Christianity and I think that gave him an outlet that enabled his delusions.

As a bipolar person I can imagine "feeling Gods light" during a manic episode and feeling the weight of the guilt of my sins during a depression. So many people with mental health problems don't get treatment because of whatever reasons. I think a lot of them go to church.

I didn't make this to bait Christians or even really ask a question. I am just angry. Angry at what Christians keep doing to people I love.

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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: SkagitHunter]
    #24123056 - 02/27/17 09:21 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

it's not always the same christians, but if you are in a christian town, with christian acquaintances in a christian network then, yeah, the zealots have a contagious christian meme, which masquerades as light.

I get the odd glimmer from time to time, but I hardly foist it on others. (not a christian type of thing either, but I can see how people get cuckoo)


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24123149 - 02/27/17 10:03 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

I have a second cousin who is older than me.  She is bipolar lr whatever.  She never did drugs or drink/smoke other than meds.  Most of this side of the family is sorta stupid and totally into fox news and bible banging.  She has religious themed delusions.  Seems to think God can heal and that there is a plan by God.

I have enlightened past that.  No need to realize there are complex plans other than by man.  Nothing to get excited about.


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OfflineLucisM
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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: SkagitHunter]
    #24123216 - 02/27/17 10:26 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

If someone has a mental health issue, they will find something to "feel the light from", might be a deity, might be the neighbors dog telling them to go out and kill like Sam Berkowitz.


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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: Lucis]
    #24123292 - 02/27/17 10:46 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

That makes sense to me OP. 

Mental illness is tackled scientifically.  And we are having the expected success in helping people as you might expect from science. 

Whereas religion tries to take preconceived notions, thousands of years preconceived, and use that explain the world.  Obviously this causes all sorts of negative effects generally including on how religion sees mental illness i.e. Demons.  But that's what you get when you don't use critical thinking and skepticism.  Superstition.  And as Mr Wonder said, when you believe in things you can't understand you suffer.

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OfflineLucisM
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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: Hippocampus]
    #24123308 - 02/27/17 10:51 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

But what about people that are suffering from mental illness that become that way from losing their religion, and can only be made whole again when they come back to it?


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: Lucis]
    #24123352 - 02/27/17 11:04 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

That is a very intriguing phenomenon. Will have to think on that longer.

What do you see when it comes to that?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: Lucis]
    #24123489 - 02/27/17 12:04 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

I do not know of cracked people being made whole.
at best the cracks become part of the journey


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OfflineSkagitHunter
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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: Lucis]
    #24123524 - 02/27/17 12:20 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Fennario said:
But what about people that are suffering from mental illness that become that way from losing their religion, and can only be made whole again when they come back to it?



Serious mental illness; bipolar, schizophrenia, ie have genetic roots, not environmental. Your question supports my theory about a way of thinking that is hurting people. Religion is not a treatment or a cause. It does however interfere with treatment and, I believe, enable someone's illness to progress.

Edited by SkagitHunter (02/27/17 12:22 PM)

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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: SkagitHunter]
    #24123534 - 02/27/17 12:24 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Genetics are in and of the environment, but I understand your point.  Just figured  I would throw that in for a good measure.


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Edited by The Blind Ass (02/27/17 12:25 PM)

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OfflineSkagitHunter
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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #24123540 - 02/27/17 12:26 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
Genetics are in and of the environment.



Semantics

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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: SkagitHunter]
    #24123541 - 02/27/17 12:27 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

No actually, not semantics.  Fact.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #24123542 - 02/27/17 12:28 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

The expression of genes in an organism can be influenced by the environment, including the external world in which the organism is located or develops, as well as the organism's internal world, which includes such factors as its hormones and metabolism.


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OfflineSkagitHunter
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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #24123544 - 02/27/17 12:29 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Thanks for derailing an otherwise on topic thread.

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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: Lucis]
    #24123547 - 02/27/17 12:30 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Fennario said:
But what about people that are suffering from mental illness that become that way from losing their religion, and can only be made whole again when they come back to it?





I think that feeling of comfort that some creator is watching over/ eternal reward/ explain the meaning of life is very powerful.  Indeed, it is the very reason religion exists.  And I agree that there is a deep seated need in humanity that religion is covering. 

When people are brought up to have a religious worldview it is like an upside down pyramid where everything in life rests on that one brick of belief in God.  It is very psychologically difficult for folks to overcome that.  But also, some people just can't stand to have such existential crises and religion plugs up that hole.  There is no doubt in my mind that people who drink the religion Kool-aide can experience psychological benefit.  Most people are not rational, as much as I wish they were.  Illogical, made up BS is gulped down by the masses, much to my dismay.  But different strokes I guess.  I mean, placebo works 33% of the time across the board in medicine!  If someone believes religion will work/is working to protect them from mental illness, then that belief alone can be enough to make it happen.  And good for those little people.  I accept that people are like that but I see it as a problem with humanity.  Maybe when I'm ruler of the universe I'll repress religion of all kinds, see if we can eradicate the "I need God" genes and end up with a better, more rational humanity.  Probably have to send billions to the gulag, but don't we need to get rid of a lot of people before we burn down the planet?

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OfflineSkagitHunter
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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: Hippocampus]
    #24123551 - 02/27/17 12:32 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

That is an interesting perspective hippo, with the placebo. That actually gives me some comfort. Thank you

Edited by SkagitHunter (02/27/17 12:34 PM)

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: SkagitHunter]
    #24123588 - 02/27/17 01:03 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

often people do need a hug
god is not exactly the same thing

getting a dog might be better than getting a god


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24123602 - 02/27/17 01:15 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

amen to that


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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #24123609 - 02/27/17 01:21 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

i think this is a dumb thread. this is like saying, shrooms are bad and negatively affect mental health, i know cuz my brother took shrooms and went crazy.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: SkagitHunter] * 2
    #24123612 - 02/27/17 01:25 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Sorry for your loses, I feel ya and I feel for you. I went through a long Christian phase of life beginning with leaving the fold of my Reformed Jewish family, none of whom were religious (if you know anything about Reform Judaism, it's pretty close to being totally secular and cultural). I received a Catholic catechism and baptism after graduating from college with a degree in philosophy, alienating much of my family. My Zionist uncle refused to attend my Messianic Jewish wedding, for example. Unwilling to become a monk, I entered a United Methodist seminary to earn a Masters of Theological Studies degree before heading off to a PhD program in Human Development & Clinical Psychology.

I wanted to help people, but the words belonging to the Bible never really changed me, nor did ancient mythology give me comfort best reserved for young children. Only literalist, fundamentalist Christians who imagine 'going' to Heaven to live in a perpetual church picnic with all of their ancestors can take solace from myth in this way. I would surmise that such people constitute the more than 50% of the U.S. population whose cognitive development has not attained to what developmental psychologist Jean Piaget called Formal Operational Thought. Lots of chronologically adult men and women continue to live with Concrete Operational Thinking. There IS logic, but it is limited and flawed. I sometimes see that such adults still fail at thinking they should have transcended decades earlier, like Piaget's notion of conservation. Some adults will STILL mistake certain perception. The example usually given for not having attained conservation is the example a tall slender glass perceived as holding more water than a short, squat glass (because they've focused on the dimension of height, not circumference). This MAY actually be the case for some people, but what I mean is that their logic is sub-standard, ESPECIALLY when it is applied to religious ideas. Eternal Life is not personal immortality, for example. Eternity is not identical with unending duration in time. In the absence of space and time, form cannot exist. But if you try to explain this to fundamentalist believers (including Muslim fundamentalists where only men get to have 72 celestial virgins in heaven  :rolleyes:), the attempt to correct their thinking usually results in being ignored or/and hostility.

I do not mean to digress from your plight, I only want to clarify what I have perceived of religious believers, and WHY there is damage done to and by believers. The transcendental ideas that are not grasped as myth, metaphor, mysticism and metaphysics will be misunderstood by much less comprehending minds. Based on literal and non-transcendental ideas that are too lofty for some people, even though their intentions are good, their attempts to help are as misguided as the surgeons who knew nothing about germ-theory and the disinfection of wounds, hands and instruments. Good intentioned, grossly lacking in necessary knowledge.

You are quite right that both hypermanic and depressive conditions can both assume titanic proportions in Bipolar Disorder, and that knowledge of religious language can easily color the highs and lows with religious tinges. The thing to remember is the same for interpreting any state of consciousness - the religious meanings can only be approximates of our experienced Heavens and Hells, NOT the actual hypothesized conditions. We are free to imagine that whatever we are experiencing must be a taste or a glimpse of what ancient authors imagined to be Heaven or Hell, but that we are not IN the actual Heavens and Hells we have heard/read about. Again, Heaven and Hell are not in time and neither is the self that is said to experience them after death. So it is a mistake to assume that we are in an eternal condition, especially when it is painful. It will cease, so the suffering of a Bipolar depression which can elicit suicidal ideation and attempts NEEDS to be ameliorated with the understanding that it is not eternal perdition that one has entered into.

Religious myths are best used to lend meaning to our existence, not to overlay our pain with guilt and fear nor falsely promise some Happy Hunting Grounds that reward us with unending time. Time, like space, are created, and as such will have some kind of end. Regardless, Eternity or Eternal Life will be a radically different ontological condition than any of the pleasures and pains experienced in our existence. Therefore, remember the Hindu response to whatever our earthly ego is experiencing and falsely believing to be Ultimate Reality: "Neti, Neti!" - Not This, Not This! By this admonition, we remain transcendentally above the snares of our temporary existential plights. :peace:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #24123697 - 02/27/17 02:20 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Mark the Gnostic, you are as abnormal as I am, and you were finding magic in your life at every turn.
This you/we still do.

However, it is not what the majority of people find: For us it makes little difference if we discover a toad in the garden, a Messiah in the hall, or a thousand dollar discarded lottery ticket. We find things, and they are encouraging to us. it is our way.

People have to find their own way, and most of magic and religion is not functional, not poetic, does not work, and merely disappoints people.

The good stuff is in people themselves already, the way to finding that ranges wildly.


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OfflineSkagitHunter
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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: Peyote Road]
    #24123894 - 02/27/17 03:16 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Peyote Road said:
i think this is a dumb thread. this is like saying, shrooms are bad and negatively affect mental health, i know cuz my brother took shrooms and went crazy.



Your analogy is flawed. Billions of people are not force fed mushrooms since birth as they are with religion.

Also, the examples I gave were not meant to be proof of my theory but examples of a destructive way of thinking.

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OfflineSkagitHunter
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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #24123909 - 02/27/17 03:20 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Thank you for your response Gnostic.

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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: Lucis]
    #24124058 - 02/27/17 04:15 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Fennario said:
But what about people that are suffering from mental illness that become that way from losing their religion, and can only be made whole again when they come back to it?






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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24124282 - 02/27/17 05:45 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

So, I read from your response RGV that the magick is already within some people? Well, I agree that it a matter of Realization that it is already within our nature, not a matter of importing something from without ourselves. So, as BE HERE NOW put it, paraphrasing, 'After you've meditated for years, vibrated your spine, and ants have eaten your arms and legs, you realize that you've always been Here & Now.' And the book further says, 'It's such a cosmic joke, your struggling to get Here.'

My response to the OP was to clarify to a small extent why religion is harmful. It is powerful medicine, but it is like a machine gun in the hands of a chimp, or the nuclear suitcase in the hands of Donald J[erkoff] Trump. My other intention was to acknowledge the additional difficulty that religious trips can have on the highs and lows of Bipolar Disorder. If one's Here is colored by extremes, the basic tendency is to flee pain and pursue pleasure, but the judicious thing is to live between pleasure and pain (paraphrasing yogi Hari Dass Baba). I endeavor to alleviate suffering if I can, even on these forums. I may not always be successful (here or elsewhere), but what else is there to do with one's life when one is not taking care of one's ordinary daily requirements? :shrug:


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OfflineSkagitHunter
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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #24124325 - 02/27/17 06:05 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

"...the basic tendency is to flee pain and pursue pleasure..."
Nail on the head

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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: SkagitHunter]
    #24125293 - 02/28/17 05:24 AM (7 years, 30 days ago)

I think religion can have a terrible effect of 'mental health'. I think the 'mental health movement' can have terrible effect on 'mental health' also. Read this book The Manufacture of Madness; A Comparative Study of the Inquisition and the Mental Health Movement, by Dr Thomas Szasz

You will see how BOTH myths are for the intention of social engineering. Many people that these times are somehow more enlightened, but actually the 'mental illnesses' so defined in the DSM ('Bible) have no actual medical scientific basis. They are labels meant to suppress dissent, however such dissent/'heresy' manifests. As long as cultures can call you 'possessed by the Devil' and/or 'suffering from mental illness' then they are OFF THE HOOK. The energy and attention needed to look at the rotten causes OF dis-ease is diverted away to blaming its victims as being 'sinners' or 'defective'.

I recently saw this very revealing vlog from this young dude who seems quite intelligent but a Dawkins devotee, and so would defo not agree with any critique against the mental health movement. However he shows how deep the negative effect of religion can go, even when the person has 'dropped it' and is now 'rational and scientific':


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: zzripz]
    #24125370 - 02/28/17 06:42 AM (7 years, 30 days ago)

Socially calling someone mentally ill is used to make them irrelevant. 

Seems some religions have drank the cool-aid.  Literately mass suicide.  Whatever the belief.

Mild religion people draw strength and encouragement.  Mental health usually has little effect on religion.  It's just a person telling you about your beliefs.


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OfflineDuncan Rowhl
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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24126640 - 02/28/17 05:47 PM (7 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

SkagitHunter said:
A friend of mine recently passed away. He had an aneurism after a long battle with alcoholism, I'm not sure if they are related, but that's not relative to the discussion. He was troubled. And deeply religious. At his funeral the pastor told us how Tony used to say he had demons inside of him. The pastor sat and prayed and cried with him.

I can't help but think the "demons" were actually mental illness he needed help with. Not some BS let's say some words. I think having someone to talk to was good, but that's where it stops. Counseling only goes so far before you need to see a real doctor to get either actual therapy or medication. I know this from my own experience of being manic depressive.

My brother in law also suffered from mental illness when he passed. Actually he was killed by the state patrol during a psychotic episode. He had been diving deeper into Christianity and I think that gave him an outlet that enabled his delusions.

As a bipolar person I can imagine "feeling Gods light" during a manic episode and feeling the weight of the guilt of my sins during a depression. So many people with mental health problems don't get treatment because of whatever reasons. I think a lot of them go to church.

I didn't make this to bait Christians or even really ask a question. I am just angry. Angry at what Christians keep doing to people I love.





People can believe in and claim to have demons without following any specific religion.  They can also believe it God.

A 'demon' is just a label and it's not exclusive to any religion or religion as a whole.  There are atheists far and wide who subscribe to the existence of supernatural forces which possess and oppress.

You yourself have identified that depressive moments can spawn simply from being 'bipolar' and needless to day, that term is just a label too.

His religion may have actually have been a deep comfort to him which may have actually prolonged his life with church functioning as a solace.

In fairness and respect to you having lost a friend and brother in law, it does appear like you've added two and two together and came up with five. It looks like you've just blamed something you don't like (seemingly from lack of knowledge of it) as a means to yield reason.

I'm not a Christian but I'm fully aware of the indoctrination imposed upon people to blindly revolt against it and so, in this case, it looks to be the go-to scapegoat.

Edited by Duncan Rowhl (02/28/17 06:23 PM)

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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: SkagitHunter]
    #24127404 - 02/28/17 10:38 PM (7 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

SkagitHunter said:

I can't help but think the "demons" were actually mental illness he needed help with.




Because someone harms themselves and/or others doesn't mean they're possessed by evil deities.

To presume demons cause violence, child abuse, suicide, addiction, depression, is to ignore the actual motivations.

Blaming demons for harmful behavior is method of making excuses to not look at the real reasons.

That said, we all have within us a voice that sometimes encourages us to go against our better judgment.

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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: SkagitHunter]
    #24127589 - 03/01/17 12:32 AM (7 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

SkagitHunter said:
Quote:

Peyote Road said:
i think this is a dumb thread. this is like saying, shrooms are bad and negatively affect mental health, i know cuz my brother took shrooms and went crazy.



Your analogy is flawed. Billions of people are not force fed mushrooms since birth as they are with religion.

Also, the examples I gave were not meant to be proof of my theory but examples of a destructive way of thinking.




yeah sorry my response was not very well thought out. i meant that i dont think religion has inherent negative effects on mental health, its in how its applied. as markos stated, i have found many religious people are good intentioned, sincere people but seriously lacking in the necessary knowledge to be spiritual guides to others. this is one way religion ends up hurting people, another way is the religious leaders who are not so well intentioned and use religion to control others.

still, certain attitudes found in religion can be beneficial to mental health, at least in comparison to the prevailing attitudes of modern society. when you say religion, i think that has to include pretty much all religious literature and if you actually the writings of ancient saints and mystics for example, they are often filled with spiritual wisdom, which if actually applied to one's life, can be of great practical value. at least this has been my experience with religion. i also understand the negative side.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #24127762 - 03/01/17 05:25 AM (7 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:

SkagitHunter said:

I can't help but think the "demons" were actually mental illness he needed help with.




Because someone harms themselves and/or others doesn't mean they're possessed by evil deities.

To presume demons cause violence, child abuse, suicide, addiction, depression, is to ignore the actual motivations.

Blaming demons for harmful behavior is method of making excuses to not look at the real reasons.

That said, we all have within us a voice that sometimes encourages us to go against our better judgment.




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OfflineSkagitHunter
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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
    #24128063 - 03/01/17 09:23 AM (7 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Duncan Rowhl said:
Quote:

SkagitHunter said:
A friend of mine recently passed away. He had an aneurism after a long battle with alcoholism, I'm not sure if they are related, but that's not relative to the discussion. He was troubled. And deeply religious. At his funeral the pastor told us how Tony used to say he had demons inside of him. The pastor sat and prayed and cried with him.

I can't help but think the "demons" were actually mental illness he needed help with. Not some BS let's say some words. I think having someone to talk to was good, but that's where it stops. Counseling only goes so far before you need to see a real doctor to get either actual therapy or medication. I know this from my own experience of being manic depressive.

My brother in law also suffered from mental illness when he passed. Actually he was killed by the state patrol during a psychotic episode. He had been diving deeper into Christianity and I think that gave him an outlet that enabled his delusions.

As a bipolar person I can imagine "feeling Gods light" during a manic episode and feeling the weight of the guilt of my sins during a depression. So many people with mental health problems don't get treatment because of whatever reasons. I think a lot of them go to church.

I didn't make this to bait Christians or even really ask a question. I am just angry. Angry at what Christians keep doing to people I love.





People can believe in and claim to have demons without following any specific religion.  They can also believe it God.

A 'demon' is just a label and it's not exclusive to any religion or religion as a whole.  There are atheists far and wide who subscribe to the existence of supernatural forces which possess and oppress.

You yourself have identified that depressive moments can spawn simply from being 'bipolar' and needless to day, that term is just a label too.

His religion may have actually have been a deep comfort to him which may have actually prolonged his life with church functioning as a solace.

In fairness and respect to you having lost a friend and brother in law, it does appear like you've added two and two together and came up with five. It looks like you've just blamed something you don't like (seemingly from lack of knowledge of it) as a means to yield reason.

I'm not a Christian but I'm fully aware of the indoctrination imposed upon people to blindly revolt against it and so, in this case, it looks to be the go-to scapegoat.




I am not blaming religion for their problems. I am saying their problems were not related to religion and were medical. Thus treating them with religion is counterproductive.

Also, although I don't like to respond to ad hominem's I would like to point out that not only did I go to a Christian school, but I've read the bible (Zondervan's NASB) in its entirety as an adult.

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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: SkagitHunter]
    #24128091 - 03/01/17 09:41 AM (7 years, 29 days ago)

Patience is still a virtue (and to be human is to investigate, i.e. see for yourself), so reading the bible is an honorable thing.


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OfflineDuncan Rowhl
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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: SkagitHunter] * 1
    #24128723 - 03/01/17 02:04 PM (7 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:


I am not blaming religion for their problems. I am saying their problems were not related to religion and were medical. Thus treating them with religion is counterproductive.




With respect, that's not what is stated.

The title of the thread in itself states the focus of your blame, before we even go on to read the rest.

If you want to explore the reality of the situation, I'd suggest you actually properly consider and raise awareness of the depression and alcohol, the firearm, the aneurism, which thus far, have been mere accessory in the hypothesis which claims that Christians, are, in a large part, responsible for these circumstances:

'Angry at what Christians keep doing to people I love.'


Edited by Duncan Rowhl (03/01/17 02:18 PM)

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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: SkagitHunter]
    #24129881 - 03/01/17 09:06 PM (7 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

SkagitHunter said:
Quote:

Duncan Rowhl said:
Quote:

SkagitHunter said:
A friend of mine recently passed away. He had an aneurism after a long battle with alcoholism, I'm not sure if they are related, but that's not relative to the discussion. He was troubled. And deeply religious. At his funeral the pastor told us how Tony used to say he had demons inside of him. The pastor sat and prayed and cried with him.

I can't help but think the "demons" were actually mental illness he needed help with. Not some BS let's say some words. I think having someone to talk to was good, but that's where it stops. Counseling only goes so far before you need to see a real doctor to get either actual therapy or medication. I know this from my own experience of being manic depressive.

My brother in law also suffered from mental illness when he passed. Actually he was killed by the state patrol during a psychotic episode. He had been diving deeper into Christianity and I think that gave him an outlet that enabled his delusions.

As a bipolar person I can imagine "feeling Gods light" during a manic episode and feeling the weight of the guilt of my sins during a depression. So many people with mental health problems don't get treatment because of whatever reasons. I think a lot of them go to church.

I didn't make this to bait Christians or even really ask a question. I am just angry. Angry at what Christians keep doing to people I love.





People can believe in and claim to have demons without following any specific religion.  They can also believe it God.

A 'demon' is just a label and it's not exclusive to any religion or religion as a whole.  There are atheists far and wide who subscribe to the existence of supernatural forces which possess and oppress.

You yourself have identified that depressive moments can spawn simply from being 'bipolar' and needless to day, that term is just a label too.

His religion may have actually have been a deep comfort to him which may have actually prolonged his life with church functioning as a solace.

In fairness and respect to you having lost a friend and brother in law, it does appear like you've added two and two together and came up with five. It looks like you've just blamed something you don't like (seemingly from lack of knowledge of it) as a means to yield reason.

I'm not a Christian but I'm fully aware of the indoctrination imposed upon people to blindly revolt against it and so, in this case, it looks to be the go-to scapegoat.




I am not blaming religion for their problems. I am saying their problems were not related to religion and were medical. Thus treating them with religion is counterproductive.

Also, although I don't like to respond to ad hominem's I would like to point out that not only did I go to a Christian school, but I've read the bible (Zondervan's NASB) in its entirety as an adult.





What do you mean "medical"? Are you saying physical problems cannot have origin in the mind or cannot be healed through a change in mental attitude?

I'd argue that Christianity was originally a spiritual healing system which taught people how to heal each other. Over the centuries the church lost this ability and many fake "faith healers" emerged but there is real powerful healing ability in religion and not just for "spiritual" problems. I'd recommend reading the following books:

The Science of Well Being by Wallace Wattles
Divine Healing by Andrew Murray
Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures by Mary Baker Eddy

These three books all contain information on how to heal oneself and they have helped me more than any doctor. Doctors actually often butcher and poison people. In today's age medicine kills more people than religion in my opinion. In fact, taking someone to a psychiatrist and drugging them for example, in my view is just imposing another form of religion on them. The religion of modern psychiatry. That's not to say there aren't decent psychiatrists out there who do great service to people. It's just to point out that the field or arena isn't what matters. You can find good healers in religion and bad healers in psychiatry and vice versa.


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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: Peyote Road]
    #24132569 - 03/02/17 11:45 PM (7 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Peyote Road said:

I'd argue that Christianity was originally a spiritual healing system which taught people how to heal each other.




Christ's heaven and hell weren't locations people go after death.

They're descriptions of different ways of life, here on Earth. 

Underneath it all, The Bible shows us the source of our misery.

Such as the Biblical passage, "You are your own worst enemy."

We must look within to find our devil that causes our suffering.

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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #24132950 - 03/03/17 07:03 AM (7 years, 27 days ago)

There was no psychology back in the day, only there was religion.  Yet today it seems psychology pretty much isn't interested in higher experience.

To me religion complicates.  Most people keep the religion for their ego and aren't interested in something more profound.  They leave it up to a higher being which they claim to have experienced, yet I doubt it.

Swedenborg talked about the schizophrenia of Christianity.  He was a christian mystic.


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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: Morel Guy]
    #24132971 - 03/03/17 07:18 AM (7 years, 27 days ago)

our job then is to filter through tons of crap and find our own way of understanding the unknown universe.

as long as we delegate our understanding to "experts" each of which has only a fragmentary idea of what was happening, we will continue to be ignorant fools holding bouquets of dying flowers picked by others.

What I don't like about religion is that we are supposed to accept things on faith (from the "experts"). That kills curiosity, and that suppresses life.


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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24134414 - 03/03/17 07:15 PM (7 years, 27 days ago)

generally religions claim to have a special status beyond that of other cultural customs,
but a little study of anthropology shows them all to be nothing but instances of cultural custom, (that actually help the rest of the culture function).

Even Buddhism takes on the trappings of culture.
One has only to compare the
Japanese, Tibetan, Chinese, and Thai versions to see big differences
that correspond to the various cultures

So to take any of them as 'gospel' (pun intended) is naive,
'from the word go' they deceive, (at the least in, the claims they make about their own specialness)
and deception is generally understood to be counterproductive
to mental health

of course the most extreme modern examples go even further with the pedophilia of the christians and terrorism of the muslims and suicides among some cults.

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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: Morel Guy] * 1
    #24134463 - 03/03/17 07:47 PM (7 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Morel Guy said:
Yet today it seems psychology pretty much isn't interested in higher experience.




The problem is that the cult of materialism has corrupted the sciences to such a degree that a person cannot be taken seriously by "serious scientists" unless they are also a member of the cult.

The cult has been so effective in twisting the academic system to its worldview that you have posters in this forum who conflate materialism and science, so that if you attack materialism they will react as if you attacked science itself.

Psychology has been influenced by biology and medicine, and most people in these fields are die-hard materialist cultists.


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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: viktor]
    #24134573 - 03/03/17 08:52 PM (7 years, 27 days ago)

too bad the ritual of experimentation and documentation is so meaningless to you that you think it is a cult.
protect your babies I guess.
you don't want them to accidentally become doctors or anything


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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: redgreenvines] * 2
    #24134628 - 03/03/17 09:27 PM (7 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
too bad the ritual of experimentation and documentation is so meaningless to you that you think it is a cult.
protect your babies I guess.
you don't want them to accidentally become doctors or anything




The irony here is that you are doing exactly what viktor was saying, you are conflating  materialism with experimentation and documentation, as though one must be a materialist in order to experiment and document or recognize the value in it. 

In our culture we now have a major split between religion, spirituality and science with the latter focusing almost exclusively with what can be perceived by the five physical senses as though nothing else was worthy of our attention.


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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: Peyote Road]
    #24135021 - 03/04/17 01:03 AM (7 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Peyote Road said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
too bad the ritual of experimentation and documentation is so meaningless to you that you think it is a cult.
protect your babies I guess.
you don't want them to accidentally become doctors or anything




The irony here is that you are doing exactly what viktor was saying, you are conflating  materialism with experimentation and documentation, as though one must be a materialist in order to experiment and document or recognize the value in it. 

In our culture we now have a major split between religion, spirituality and science with the latter focusing almost exclusively with what can be perceived by the five physical senses as though nothing else was worthy of our attention.




really so you want a doctor who ignores experimental evidence?
you prefer witch doctors and vodoo -- because they include a 'spiritual dimension',
as opposed to MRIs PET scans,Xrays, genetic testing, etc etc ? (which you believe have no "spiritual dimension"), glad I'm not your kid.

Edited by laughingdog (03/04/17 01:06 AM)

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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: SkagitHunter]
    #24135039 - 03/04/17 01:13 AM (7 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

SkagitHunter said:
A friend of mine recently passed away. He had an aneurism after a long battle with alcoholism, I'm not sure if they are related, but that's not relative to the discussion. He was troubled. And deeply religious. At his funeral the pastor told us how Tony used to say he had demons inside of him. The pastor sat and prayed and cried with him.

I can't help but think the "demons" were actually mental illness he needed help with. Not some BS let's say some words. I think having someone to talk to was good, but that's where it stops. Counseling only goes so far before you need to see a real doctor to get either actual therapy or medication. I know this from my own experience of being manic depressive.

My brother in law also suffered from mental illness when he passed. Actually he was killed by the state patrol during a psychotic episode. He had been diving deeper into Christianity and I think that gave him an outlet that enabled his delusions.

As a bipolar person I can imagine "feeling Gods light" during a manic episode and feeling the weight of the guilt of my sins during a depression. So many people with mental health problems don't get treatment because of whatever reasons. I think a lot of them go to church.

I didn't make this to bait Christians or even really ask a question. I am just angry. Angry at what Christians keep doing to people I love.





I am a christian and I agree with you.


It is strange how many people believe they are posessed by demons.  it is ridiculous.  Sometimes I think they are using it as an excuse to justify their bizarre, strange, or unusual behavior. Similiar to an alcoholic who drinks too much that has very poor self control.. Other times I think they are schizo or crazy.

meh I guess I should just be grateful I'm not crazy. Hello btw.  Sorry to hear about your friend. how sad. Hope you're doing alright.


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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: sprinkles]
    #24135125 - 03/04/17 03:30 AM (7 years, 26 days ago)

the current political climate in the USA
and it's antagonism to science
and alignment with religion
is another example of the harm done by religion
the result will not just be to harm mental health but to the prosperity
and international standing of the country

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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: laughingdog]
    #24135191 - 03/04/17 05:09 AM (7 years, 26 days ago)

important questions:

was (and is) religion hijacked?

& was (and is) science hijacked?

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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: zzripz]
    #24135207 - 03/04/17 05:25 AM (7 years, 26 days ago)

humanity hasnt even reached the first stage of advanced beings of the universe.  if there are three stages humans are at .5  We have not even at reached level 1 yet.  We have not even figured out where we come from.


that being said my brain is hijacked.



science and religion dont discredit or disprove the another.  Those of you who know or have heard Deepak chopra talk about consciousness and how science and religion actually have much more in common than in difference get what im saying.


anyway thats what i love about stuff and things is all the mystery and all the things we dont know yet.  its so amazing and wonderful.  i love it so hard, just like these birds


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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: Peyote Road]
    #24135214 - 03/04/17 05:29 AM (7 years, 26 days ago)

excuse me for lumping psychology into science.
Only part of it is actually science.

BTW science is well beyond 5 senses. Many things that we do not directly perceive at all are:
1. detectable (using tools).
2. understandable (with examination and effort).
3. reproducible when following consistent methods.
4. help to predict what will happen in similar circumstances after you fit them together with the results of other methodical efforts.

I personally spend & have spent a lot of time with Tarot cards which I use both for symbolic idea relations and occasionally for reading. They are not good for prediction.

I also spend & have spent a lot of time in meditation which is not normally considered "materialism" oriented, so maybe I am being improperly pegged by some people here.

I avoid making up theories that require god or magic and have learned to face the dark unknown (and listen to the silence)  without  comforting myself with such psychedelic teddy bears to squeeze.

Thanks laughingdog, I would be so outnumbered without you barking up a storm.


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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24135231 - 03/04/17 05:47 AM (7 years, 26 days ago)

If I have 'violent concepts'...? You seem mixed up?

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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24135244 - 03/04/17 06:00 AM (7 years, 26 days ago)

The bible says not to rely on our own human understanding.  Because our perception and ability to understand is limited.  we only use 10% of our brains after all.  The bible states "Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding." -proverbs  and  "do not be wise in your own eyes"


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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: sprinkles]
    #24135282 - 03/04/17 06:25 AM (7 years, 26 days ago)

we do not use just 10% of our brain, where did you discover that false factoid?
anyway here is a fine description of why people believe what is not necessarily true
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/03/opinion/sunday/why-we-believe-obvious-untruths.html?_r=0

for those who have lost patience or who have begun to hate holders of opposing beliefs this will be a good thing to re-read and read again.

it insults nobody


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OfflineDuncan Rowhl
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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #24135546 - 03/04/17 08:36 AM (7 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:

Peyote Road said:

I'd argue that Christianity was originally a spiritual healing system which taught people how to heal each other.




Christ's heaven and hell weren't locations people go after death.

They're descriptions of different ways of life, here on Earth. 

Underneath it all, The Bible shows us the source of our misery.

Such as the Biblical passage, "You are your own worst enemy."

We must look within to find our devil that causes our suffering.




:thumbup:

We can swing a life of Swizzles or a Parmaviolet Hell.

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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24135568 - 03/04/17 08:45 AM (7 years, 26 days ago)

shup up and be quiet. :ifyoucanawe:  you'll look at the pictures of the birds if you know whats good for ya :ifyoucanawe:


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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24135587 - 03/04/17 08:50 AM (7 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
we do not use just 10% of our brain, where did you discover that false factoid?
anyway here is a fine description of why people believe what is not necessarily true
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/03/opinion/sunday/why-we-believe-obvious-untruths.html?_r=0

for those who have lost patience or who have begun to hate holders of opposing beliefs this will be a good thing to re-read and read again.

it insults nobody




Errrm, obviously tthis same 'irrational ignorance' same doesn't apply to your cognitive scienist, and professor of marketing, ey, who seems to patronizingly inform us what IS the truth from the fake? he quickly gets in this, without any supporting evidence:
Quote:

Plenty of liberals believe, counter to scientific consensus, that G.M.O.s are poisonous



  However doesn't mention this worthwhile news/info : University Scientists Caught Conspiring with Monsanto to Manipulate Public Opinion on GMOs

he labels all people against Monsanto 'Liberals'. Does this include Indigenous Mayans who also want nothing to do with Monsanto's eviltoxic BS:
Quote:

Indigenous Mayans Win Stunning Repeal of Hated ‘Monsanto Law’
Criminalizing Small Farmers

Monsanto spends untold resources suing family farms for patent infringement. Farmers are forbidden from saving patented seeds year to year. Additionally when Monsanto’s GM seeds pollute neighboring farms, Monsanto sues those farms too.

    According to information from Food Democracy Now, a grassroots community for sustainable food system, Monsanto’s GMO Roundup Ready soybeans, the world’s leading chemical and biotech seed company, admits to filing 150 lawsuits against America’s family farmers, while settling another 700 out of court for undisclosed amounts.

Farmers in countries where sale of Monsanto’s GM seeds are legal face the same repercussions. The Monsanto Law in Guatemala meant that farmers would not be allowed to grow food from natural seeds. They would have to license patented seeds from transnational companies such as Monsanto, and pay patent fees even if GM seeds got mixed with their natural crop as a result of pollination or wind.




the 'cognitive scientist, and professor of marketing' one talking down to us, the 'rationally irrationally ignorant', doesn't mention that does he?




Hey, guess what?? I am a fortune teller? I bet £100 that if you asked this know-it-all cognitive scientist if he believed the official story of 9/11 he would say a resounding 'yes'! and would label you an ignoramus liberal conspiracy theorist if you questioned it!

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: zzripz]
    #24135747 - 03/04/17 10:03 AM (7 years, 26 days ago)

anything on topic about that?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_percent_of_the_brain_myth

why don't you just use wikipedia a bit more, just to embarrass yourself a bit less.


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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24135965 - 03/04/17 11:29 AM (7 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
anything on topic about that?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_percent_of_the_brain_myth

why don't you just use wikipedia a bit more, just to embarrass yourself a bit less.




it was actually very on topic and a good example of exposing some smart-ass academic talking down to others from his ivory tower :wink:

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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: zzripz]
    #24136057 - 03/04/17 12:15 PM (7 years, 26 days ago)

certainly puts me in my place again, mamma!


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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24136463 - 03/04/17 03:09 PM (7 years, 26 days ago)

Well it is really just questioning. And that includes those who seem to think they know and you don't know because they have some fancy letters after their name etc. The more authority they have the more influence they often have over people. Why else do the advertising industry rely on authority figures, and celebrities to push what they selling?



Your not meant to question authority. That is the point.

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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: zzripz]
    #24136498 - 03/04/17 03:27 PM (7 years, 26 days ago)

just blink it away


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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: Peyote Road]
    #24137323 - 03/04/17 09:28 PM (7 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Peyote Road said: In our culture we now have a major split between religion, spirituality and science with the latter focusing almost exclusively with what can be perceived by the five physical senses as though nothing else was worthy of our attention.




Such science, no focus beyond 5 physical senses..


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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: SkagitHunter]
    #24137528 - 03/04/17 11:56 PM (7 years, 26 days ago)

you can


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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: sprinkles]
    #24137557 - 03/05/17 12:34 AM (7 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

sprinkles said:

It is strange how many people believe they are posessed by demons.  it is ridiculous.




As a Christian you believe the concept of Satan or evil spirits is ridiculous?

Many people do harmful things they would really rather not do. Yet they do it anyway.

Many people are greatly conflicted and seek to find an explanation for this conflict.

The word "demons" reveals the inner-conflict and negative destructive brain messages they receive.

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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: SkagitHunter]
    #24137564 - 03/05/17 12:42 AM (7 years, 26 days ago)

It smooths out to the end. :tongue2:



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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: viktor]
    #24137573 - 03/05/17 12:48 AM (7 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

viktor said:

Psychology has been influenced by biology and medicine, and most people in these fields are die-hard materialist cultists.





How about cognitive psychology or cognitive behavioral therapy? CBT is successfully utilized on a huge scale.

There's much research on the effects of human patterns of thinking, and corresponding emotional disturbances and harmful behavior.

We can dissect the irrational and distorted thinking habits of someone who commits suicide, or shoots randomly into crowds.
I wouldn't call the relationship between thinking habits and human neurosis and disturbed behavior "materialist".

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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #24137606 - 03/05/17 01:18 AM (7 years, 26 days ago)

No, neither would I.

Science can legitimately be materialist when it has to be. Materialism is, however, a tool, not a worldview (or at least not a good one).

Only if you're as confused as OrgoneConclusion are science and materialism even close to the same thing.


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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: viktor]
    #24137615 - 03/05/17 01:31 AM (7 years, 26 days ago)

OrgoneConclusion aside, I confess I'm confused as to what you mean by materialism.

The perspective I've taken is like this part of one definition...

"...that matter is the fundamental substance in nature, and that all phenomena, including mental phenomena and consciousness, are results of material interactions."

For example, I don't think 9/11 had as much to to with molecules as other factors.

Please feel free to address my ignorance.

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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #24137723 - 03/05/17 03:20 AM (7 years, 25 days ago)

The definition you gave is pretty much what I considered materialism to be :shrug:

In particular there is the delusion that upon the death of your physical body, your consciousness will somehow disappear or be exterminated because your brain magically created consciousness out of some amazing fantastical property it has, and so when your brain dies so do you.

This delusion is so widespread that it appears to be the default mindset of every pleb out there. Even on this forum for people who have seen beyond there are many still believing it.


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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #24137740 - 03/05/17 03:53 AM (7 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:

viktor said:

Psychology has been influenced by biology and medicine, and most people in these fields are die-hard materialist cultists.





How about cognitive psychology or cognitive behavioral therapy? CBT is successfully utilized on a huge scale.

There's much research on the effects of human patterns of thinking, and corresponding emotional disturbances and harmful behavior.

We can dissect the irrational and distorted thinking habits of someone who commits suicide, or shoots randomly into crowds.
I wouldn't call the relationship between thinking habits and human neurosis and disturbed behavior "materialist".




the history of 'psychology' as this modern culture knows it begins with Wilhelm Wundt and his so-called 'experimental psychology'. Summarized he, 'advanced' Rene Descartes belief that animals were machines to include us humans. According to Wundt we were merely eclectro-chemical machines. This concept completely contradicts they very meaning of the term 'psychology':


Quote:


psychology (n.) Look up psychology at Dictionary.com
    1650s, "study of the soul," from Modern Latin psychologia, probably coined mid-16c. in Germany by Melanchthon from Latinized form of Greek psykhe- "breath, spirit, soul" (see psyche) + logia "study of" (see -logy). Meaning "study of the mind" first recorded 1748, from Christian Wolff's "Psychologia empirica" (1732); main modern behavioral sense is from early 1890s.




So yes, 'psychology' and its therapies like 'CBT' are very materialist. The 'psychologists' are like the new gatekeeping priests of this materialist paradigm which forbid people experience themselves as far deeper than the limitations of materialism would have us believe.

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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: SkagitHunter]
    #24137743 - 03/05/17 03:56 AM (7 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

ultra said:
Religious programming has had a very negative impact on my health, I'm certain of that much.

I wish that I could find some sort of "religion-less religion."




Can you elaborate how it has negatively affected you? I think your sharing this will be healing for others who feel the same but cannot articulate it, for whatever reason.

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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: viktor]
    #24138074 - 03/05/17 08:26 AM (7 years, 25 days ago)

so, it's about not letting go of the idea of a soul.

Why not keep our soul, and don't worry about consciousness being a brain based thing. the confusion is about what is a soul vs what is consciousness. Making them into the same thing is causing you too much grief.

A soul can be a separate entity with no material interface. your belief in it is the only material aspect it has. but if you believe in it constructively, i.e. morally it can have material impact that subtends from your thinking about it.


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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: zzripz]
    #24138505 - 03/05/17 11:44 AM (7 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:

So yes, 'psychology' and its therapies like 'CBT' are very materialist.




When someone experiences road rage to the extent they murder another driver, how are the
cognitive distortions they embraced, which fueled their behavior, "materialistic"? I don't get it.

If someone claims road rage is a mental illness, and requires drugs to correct, that would be materialistic.

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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: SkagitHunter]
    #24138512 - 03/05/17 11:47 AM (7 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

ultra said:

Religious programming has had a very negative impact on my health, I'm certain of that much.

I wish that I could find some sort of "religion-less religion."




There are spiritual practices focused on abandoning all forms of "programming".

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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #24138936 - 03/05/17 02:39 PM (7 years, 25 days ago)

those who think religion is good for their mental health
and materialism the work of the devil
would have really enjoyed the middle ages and dark ages in Europe
or course the USA is headed in that direction again
so they may get what they want soon

however anyone who sees beyond
all these made up categories and beliefs
like for instance
little children
won't be troubled by so called grownup
'sophisticated' debates like this

ok
what's inside the next fortune
cookie

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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #24139015 - 03/05/17 03:14 PM (7 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:

zzripz said:

So yes, 'psychology' and its therapies like 'CBT' are very materialist.




When someone experiences road rage to the extent they murder another driver, how are the
cognitive distortions they embraced, which fueled their behavior, "materialistic"? I don't get it.

If someone claims road rage is a mental illness, and requires drugs to correct, that would be materialistic.




well the very lingo of that is materialistic, to me anyway:
Quote:

the
cognitive distortions they embraced, which fueled their behavior



:what2:

They may be having a real shitty life. VERy complex problems, interweaved with the whole culture, and rat race of it all. But the CBT 'expert' will just see them as an erratic troublesome deviant person-machine that needs his 'expert' cognitive tweaking. No doubt it may even help, but the underlying sht carries on, because this is all shallow and materialistic having lost its soul.

here's a small example of a CBT session , what do you think?


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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: SkagitHunter]
    #24139029 - 03/05/17 03:21 PM (7 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

SkagitHunter said:
A friend of mine recently passed away. He had an aneurism after a long battle with alcoholism, I'm not sure if they are related, but that's not relative to the discussion. He was troubled. And deeply religious. At his funeral the pastor told us how Tony used to say he had demons inside of him. The pastor sat and prayed and cried with him.

I can't help but think the "demons" were actually mental illness he needed help with. Not some BS let's say some words. I think having someone to talk to was good, but that's where it stops. Counseling only goes so far before you need to see a real doctor to get either actual therapy or medication. I know this from my own experience of being manic depressive.

My brother in law also suffered from mental illness when he passed. Actually he was killed by the state patrol during a psychotic episode. He had been diving deeper into Christianity and I think that gave him an outlet that enabled his delusions.

As a bipolar person I can imagine "feeling Gods light" during a manic episode and feeling the weight of the guilt of my sins during a depression. So many people with mental health problems don't get treatment because of whatever reasons. I think a lot of them go to church.

I didn't make this to bait Christians or even really ask a question. I am just angry. Angry at what Christians keep doing to people I love.




Quote:

The phrase “Camel through the eye of a needle” appears in Matthew 19:24, (also in Mark 10:25 and Luke 18:25...)

"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God"






Quote:

When we talk of “higher” things, we tend to think in terms of our own point of view, a bigger version of ourselves, an expansion of ourselves. It is like looking at ourselves in a magnifying mirror... I am here, He is there. And the only way to communicate is trying to ask His help. We may feel we are making contact at certain times, but somehow we never communicate this way.

We can never achieve union with God, because there is a fixed concept, a prefabricated conclusion, which we have already accepted, and we are merely trying to put that great thing into a small container. One cannot drive a camel through the eye of a needle. So we have to find some other means. The only way is to come back to the sheer simplicity of examining ourselves.

Chogyam Trungpa




Edited by Kurt (03/05/17 03:33 PM)

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OfflineDuncan Rowhl
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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: SkagitHunter]
    #24140015 - 03/05/17 09:45 PM (7 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

ultra said:
I wish that I could find some sort of "religion-less religion."




It's called personal belief and it's yours to utilise whenever you start. :thumbup:

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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
    #24140417 - 03/06/17 06:07 AM (7 years, 24 days ago)

you really mean that any rubber tube can be inflated with spirit (pneuma - breath - prana)

In that way you are a balloon king to your flock of holy party-ers.


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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24140439 - 03/06/17 06:25 AM (7 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
you really mean that any rubber tube can be inflated with spirit (pneuma - breath - prana)

In that way you are a balloon king to your flock of holy party-ers.




The inner tube is inflated with spirit, the tire rolls through life until it wears out and develops a leak.  Eventually the inner tube squeezes out from the lifeless tire that has a flat and the spirit escapes out of a black hole which creates a spirit in the sky.



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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #24140455 - 03/06/17 06:39 AM (7 years, 24 days ago)

that's wheely how it is


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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24140490 - 03/06/17 07:06 AM (7 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
that's wheely how it is




look we can keep going round and round out of balance and bouncing down the road of life.  or we can pull into the gas station and take a leak in their filthy bathroom.  your call.


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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #24140505 - 03/06/17 07:17 AM (7 years, 24 days ago)

how bad you have to go?
take some tissue with.
just sayin'...


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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24141037 - 03/06/17 11:51 AM (7 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
When someone experiences road rage to the extent they murder another driver, how are the
cognitive distortions they embraced, which fueled their behavior, "materialistic"? I don't get it.

If someone claims road rage is a mental illness, and requires drugs to correct, that would be materialistic.




The work of 'Lower Level' brain function perhaps?

The lower mind is expressed in all manners and could just be summed up too as problems with the self, demons of inferiority and discomfort in aesthetic or sexual difference - anything which put the phsyche at dis-ease. The projection of the suffering is the process by which the ego is re-assuring the host that they must win over any circustance, whilst the fight actually deteriorates the subject and fuels the destructive loop.

You fight on the cobbles, you live in the lane. :thumbup:

The person with road rage might be seen as 'materialistic' for having valued their car above that of the life and soul of a human being?

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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: SkagitHunter]
    #24145170 - 03/07/17 11:25 PM (7 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

SkagitHunter said:
Thank you for your response Gnostic.




:cheers:


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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
    #24150333 - 03/10/17 01:22 AM (7 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Duncan Rowhl said:

The person with road rage might be seen as 'materialistic' for having valued their car above that of the life and soul of a human being?




Unsure if you are joking here. I think they valued their anger more than all else.

Their rage didn't originate from a chemical origin, right?

People who are enraged do have altered chemical levels in their blood.

But, just like people in love, the chemistry change is secondary. Or no?

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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #24150419 - 03/10/17 02:49 AM (7 years, 20 days ago)

Road rage is a biological response to external, material stimuli.  Both are interconnected and non exclusive.  One is the action formed by a cause and a cause is not an action.

Pressing for correctness on a forum for instance, would render the forum the 'material' which reflects the need imposed by the chemical which makes one feel like everyone should conform to ones wishes. The forum then, holds the importance. :wink:

We are judged upon the intermediate, adjudication of the higher mind.  The chemical is no more to blame than the Mother.  However far out the line is drawn to the cause is directly proportionate to our perception of personal responsibility.

Edited by Duncan Rowhl (03/11/17 10:13 AM)

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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: SkagitHunter]
    #24150436 - 03/10/17 03:11 AM (7 years, 20 days ago)

I'm sorry to hear about ur friend


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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
    #24150591 - 03/10/17 06:28 AM (7 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Duncan Rowhl said:
Road rage is a biological response to external, material stimuli.  Both are interconnect and non exclusive.  One is the action formed by a cause and a cause is not an action.

Pressing for correctness on a forum for instance, would render the forum the 'material' which reflects the need imposed by the chemical which makes one feel like everyone should conform to ones wishes. The forum then, holds the importance. :wink:

We are judged upon the intermediate, adjudication of the higher mind.  The chemical is no more to blame than the Mother.  However far out the line is drawn to the cause is directly proportionate to our perception of personal responsibility.



Interestingly, road rage pertains to conduct on the road.
This is analogous to the way, or the path.
Choosing one's route, or the way usually precedes inserting the key into the ignition; even if one says they did not plan their route, they are denying that they knew where they were going, but it was a route they knew (before).

As with most issues in our life path, some decision is made at some time that impacts future decision making, in future contexts - we know this and rely on it to support our "care free life styles".

On the short term one picks a route at some point in time, but on the long term, the route once chosen (in the past), and many other behaviors (learned in the past) collude in our care-free path to create the road rage challenges that confront all of us in our cars and our lives.

If we do not understand the layered complexity of decision making and practice/routines, then we are not being responsible.

The chemistry of rage, of fear, of chaotic thinking is not a separate actor, it is part of the path one should expect to encounter.

This means we need to be more familiar with it, and how to manage our vehicle (self/body/mind) when we are in that zone. We need to restore our awareness in the face of chaos, and we need to practice techniques that can use it to improve the situation. Notice the rage, channel it safely. Avoid damage or harm. It has to be considered and practiced and it has to complement the care-free approach we expect.

This is much more about Jekyll and Hyde than anything in the bible.
drug forum,
I expect some Mr. Hyde here


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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24151310 - 03/10/17 12:21 PM (7 years, 20 days ago)

It's a good analogy and elaboration.

The pure cyclists take the brunt of the thorns. :wink:

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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
    #24151350 - 03/10/17 12:37 PM (7 years, 20 days ago)

:crankeyclaus: (Hyde)
I am concerned that he has become pickled by experience.


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Edited by The Blind Ass (03/10/17 12:38 PM)

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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
    #24151508 - 03/10/17 01:47 PM (7 years, 20 days ago)

who is a pure cyclist these days?
lots of thorn honking in the city.


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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24151532 - 03/10/17 01:59 PM (7 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
who is a pure cyclist these days?
lots of thorn honking in the city.




Those who ride the path without the need to roar? :thumbup:

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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
    #24151710 - 03/10/17 03:23 PM (7 years, 20 days ago)

well I think that is not a good representation, in fact I am convinced you should remove the word "pure" from your vocabulary, because it actually means something that is not applicable to mind, thinking, life and being human; because all of what we are is composite, and that is my point in the previous post:
expect to be composite and cultivate a good mix.

avoid any pretense of purity especially a so called purity combined with a care-free approach.

at best you may get 99.999% purity when dealing with chemical reagents or table salt - otherwise the word "pure" is very unhappy holdover from medieval philosophies (the age of alchemy).


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24152499 - 03/10/17 08:54 PM (7 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:

This means we need to be more familiar with it, and how to manage our vehicle (self/body/mind) when we are in that zone. We need to restore our awareness in the face of chaos, and we need to practice techniques that can use it to improve the situation. Notice the rage, channel it safely. Avoid damage or harm. It has to be considered and practiced and it has to complement the care-free approach we expect.





I think what's often lacking is a clear understanding of the motivation for harmful behavior.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #24153034 - 03/11/17 02:24 AM (7 years, 20 days ago)

a defensive reaction triggers rage which wakes us up from complacency
triggering extreme defensive territorial behavior


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OfflineDuncan Rowhl
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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24153227 - 03/11/17 07:23 AM (7 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
a defensive reaction triggers rage which wakes us up from complacency
triggering extreme defensive territorial behavior




Ones perpetual demonstration is indeed a first hand blessing. :thumbup:

Edited by Duncan Rowhl (03/11/17 07:29 AM)

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
    #24153248 - 03/11/17 07:38 AM (7 years, 19 days ago)

unintelligible


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24153287 - 03/11/17 08:05 AM (7 years, 19 days ago)

its a fortune
you know?
found in a cookie

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OfflineDuncan Rowhl
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Re: Religion's negative effect on mental health [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24153305 - 03/11/17 08:25 AM (7 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
unintelligible




Alas, the very substance of its effectiveness.

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