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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Dmt to raise psilocybin content? [Re: KThunderland]
    #24170798 - 03/17/17 07:13 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

KThunderland said:
NNDMT, the DMT found in most ayahuasca plants, particularly mimosa hostilis, is in fact an inhibitor of the enyzyme tryptophan decarboxylase which creates the tryptamines necessary in the production of psilocin + psilocybin. And  Dude no one is attacking you, we all thought about this at some point lol




What does that have to do with mushrooms phosphorylating added tryptamines though? If you're converting n,n,dmt into 4-ho-dmt (or 4-po-dmt) then it makes no difference if the metabolic pathway to create typtophan, tryptamine, or any of the other precursors is inhibited or shut down completely, that part of the biosynthesis has already been bypassed completely anyway. All we need to happen is the last step of hydroxylation and/or phosphorylation.

I don't think anyone is attacked me, nor am I attacking anyone else, and I do apologize if I've come across that way, I'm just frustrated by some of the illogical conclusions some are claiming. If it's a logical conclusion to you then please share the information that created that logic so the rest of us can arrive there.

edit: And why would the dmt in mimosa hostilis be anymore inhibiting than any other dmt anyway? N,N,DMT is N,N,DMT no matter the source.

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Invisiblewildernessjunkie
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Re: Dmt to raise psilocybin content? [Re: krypto2000] * 2
    #24170830 - 03/17/17 07:26 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Disclaimer: I'm on my phone, and the green beer is kicking in.

I wasn't attacking you, please don't think that. But any number of claims can be made in regards to mush cult.

Here's how I see it. If there was some secret trick to producing significantly more magic to any substrate, then it wouldn't be a secret for long. And right now, as it stands, the true and actual numbers of potency are more of a mystery than actual science.  (Though I think we have a good idea on yeild.)

Until we can attach actual scientifically derived numbers to any claim of potency...its all subjective.

I'm not saying its not possible. I'm just saying its not proven. Numbers are important.

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OfflineKThunderland
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Re: Dmt to raise psilocybin content? [Re: wildernessjunkie]
    #24170857 - 03/17/17 07:39 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Your implying that what i said implied that any nndmt would be any better, it wouldnt.


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Dmt to raise psilocybin content? [Re: KThunderland]
    #24170892 - 03/17/17 07:56 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

wildernessjunkie said:
Disclaimer: I'm on my phone, and the green beer is kicking in.

I wasn't attacking you, please don't think that. But any number of claims can be made in regards to mush cult.

Here's how I see it. If there was some secret trick to producing significantly more magic to any substrate, then it wouldn't be a secret for long. And right now, as it stands, the true and actual numbers of potency are more of a mystery than actual science.  (Though I think we have a good idea on yeild.)

Until we can attach actual scientifically derived numbers to any claim of potency...its all subjective.

I'm not saying its not possible. I'm just saying its not proven. Numbers are important.




I agree completely, well said.
Quote:

KThunderland said:
Your implying that what i said implied that any nndmt would be any better, it wouldnt.




I'm not sure what you mean? How did I imply that?

All I thought you were implying was that because dmt inhibits decarboxylation that it can't get metabolized into 4-po, which is not the case as decardboxylation and hydroxylation/phosporylation are entirely different steps. If you were not saying that though then how is it relevant in regards to mushrooms metabolizing dmt to psilocybin?

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OfflineKThunderland
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Re: Dmt to raise psilocybin content? [Re: krypto2000]
    #24170922 - 03/17/17 08:07 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Nndmt inhibits the enzyme that the mushroom uses to create psilocin + psilocybin.sorry if i wasnt clear i had to reread it myself, worst case it hurts best case you have wasted dmt... Or tbh increased potency by some yet unknown mechanism.


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OfflineBasilBush
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Re: Dmt to raise psilocybin content? [Re: KThunderland]
    #24171428 - 03/18/17 01:36 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I read this type of post numerous time before and everyone always argues about it, or just like me they havnt got a clue.
That crystal in the petri dish is salt I coloured on with a felt tip pen just for giggles,I've come to the conclusion by pure guessing. Smoking myc piss would be more effective then none scientific noobs and amateurs (like me) putting chemicals in the substrate.

I would piss my self if someone actualy smoked myc piss and was still high from last night.

Sorry all for getting ya hopes up, just my shitty sense of humor finally coming thru.

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Invisibleamidogen
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Re: Dmt to raise psilocybin content? [Re: BasilBush] * 1
    #24171442 - 03/18/17 01:52 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

.


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Edited by amidogen (06/21/18 10:25 AM)

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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Dmt to raise psilocybin content? [Re: KThunderland]
    #24172056 - 03/18/17 11:05 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

KThunderland said:
Nndmt inhibits the enzyme that the mushroom uses to create psilocin + psilocybin.sorry if i wasnt clear i had to reread it myself, worst case it hurts best case you have wasted dmt... Or tbh increased potency by some yet unknown mechanism.




It does not inhibit psilocin or psilocybin production at all though, that is not what your quote says. It inhibits tryptamine production. They are completely unrelated processes. If you are supplying dmt or some other tryptamine to the fungi then it does not matter if the fungi can produce it itself or not, it's already in the substrate because you put it there. There is no mention of dmt inhibiting phosphorylation or hydroxylation which is the only step remaining to convert dmt into a 4 subbed tryptamine, there is nothing to decarboxylate on dmt so it doesn't matter if the dexarcboxylase enzymes are absent.

That argument would be akin to not upgrading your 56k line to fiber internet bc in order to install the fiber they would have to rip out the old phone line. Yah you won't have dial up internet anymore but you'll still have internet, much faster internet.

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OfflineKThunderland
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Re: Dmt to raise psilocybin content? [Re: krypto2000]
    #24172130 - 03/18/17 11:37 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Dmt is a tryptamine, im sorry if you dont u dertsand the science behind ehat im sating but look it up before trying to talk it down, it looks foolish


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Dmt to raise psilocybin content? [Re: KThunderland]
    #24172196 - 03/18/17 12:10 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Haha, you're clearly the one that doesn't understand here. I'm not going to keep repeating it. The very thread you got that information says the same thing that I have kept trying to explain to you if you'd have read it.

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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Dmt to raise psilocybin content? [Re: krypto2000]
    #24172212 - 03/18/17 12:17 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Re anecdotally said he tried it dozens of times. I trust him more than gartz and PF. So what they wrote a piss poor paper with flawed methodology that never once was replicated.

If it worked we would not be in the dark about it

Anyone asking about it should be producing new evidence or compelling research of their own. Otherwise it's just the same shit every few months


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InvisibleKush_Zombie
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Re: Dmt to raise psilocybin content? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #24172215 - 03/18/17 12:20 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

If you're seriously contemplating adding dmt to your substrate for stronger shrooms....

You should do it. :popcorn:


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Use 6500k lights throughout the whole process. When you wake up, turn the light on. When you go to sleep turn the light off. It's as simple as that.

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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Dmt to raise psilocybin content? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #24172335 - 03/18/17 01:20 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
Re anecdotally said he tried it dozens of times. I trust him more than gartz and PF. So what they wrote a piss poor paper with flawed methodology that never once was replicated.





You trust someone who hasn't been a member long, has no credibility, has demonstrated he doesn't even understand the metabolic pathway by repeating that decarboxylase inhibition rhetoric, and above all else will not even write a brief summary of their procedure despite numerous requests over two different people who have published their results? Having tried it multiple times doesn't mean anything, if he did it wrong the first time then repeating it will obviously not produce a new result.

Quote:



Anyone asking about it should be producing new evidence or compelling research of their own. Otherwise it's just the same shit every few months




I agree, but I didn't ask the question.

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Invisiblec10h12n2o
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Re: Dmt to raise psilocybin content? [Re: wildernessjunkie]
    #24186317 - 03/23/17 02:25 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

wildernessjunkie said:
Until we can attach actual scientifically derived numbers to any claim of potency...its all subjective.

I'm not saying its not possible. I'm just saying its not proven. Numbers are important.




:whathesaid: 100%

its kinda silly that anyone would even presume to debate these things when it is so subjective (unless you have a chromatography lab and team handy)... and even then, even when dealing with identical doses of an identical substance, psychedelic trips are STILL subjective by their very nature, no one's experience, brain chemistry, or set & setting is identical

so "stronger" only has meaning when you ground it to something concrete, like active percentages. but even that is complicated, because (as we have been learning in the MMJ industry), the interaction between the various active compounds (as well as non-psychoactive), both agonists and antagonists, affecting our various brains, can have a tremendous impact on the overall perceived "strength" or "effects" (and psychadelics get even more complicated)

for instance, in cannabis there are cannabinoid agonists such as THC, antagonists such as Rimonabant, and at least 483 distinct compounds, only a few of which have been studied at all. not all plants have all the compounds, and their concentrations vary greatly. a plant might have 25% thc but feel less potent than a 13% thc plant because of some other active compounds, or perhaps it could be the interaction between agonists and antagonists (high thc and antagonist in the same sample)

Rimonabant is especially interesting because where THC makes you hungry, happy, sleepy, Rimonabant does the exact opposite, so it was marketed as a diet drug. but these not hungry, not happy, not sleepy people kept killing themselves, so it was pulled from the market. as we learn about these systems and substances that interact with them, it challenges a lot of basic assumptions we tend to make about "potency," especially when dealing with a natural, unrefined product

i think the biggest problem with Stamets & Gartz paper has been the way people misinterpret it and try to apply it as a technique to increase the potency of their crops, rather than seeing it for what it is: an interesting if potentially flawed study that brings up lots of questions, rather than a "potency tek"


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Dmt to raise psilocybin content? [Re: c10h12n2o]
    #24186406 - 03/23/17 03:02 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, I agree. As I recall in the original study they grew the mycilium in a liquid culture or a petri, fed the network with the alkaloids, and found it converted them to their 4-OH and 4-PO counterparts. They may not ever be incorprated into the fruit bodies, and there is some research saying that dmt specifically is not well incorporated even, so feeding them to a substrate would do nothing to make the fruits more potent, but that does not mean that the conversion is not taking place or the paper made false claims. To my knowledge it's never been faithfully reproduced to actually conclude one way or the other. Likewise as was mentioned dmt inhibits tryptamine production so if you added enough dmt to double the alkaloid content but the alkaloid content is halved due to the decreased production of decarboxylase enzymes then you would end up with the exact same potency as if you did nothing.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Dmt to raise psilocybin content? [Re: miksitk]
    #24188383 - 03/24/17 10:10 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

When I was first attempting to grow P. cubensis in 1989, I asked a molecular biologist friend about how to increase potency, and he asked a colleague more familiar with the topic. My friend then sent me some some custom-made agar to which he added the amino acid L-Tryptophan. This was supposed to contribute to the production of psilocybin or psilocin (it's been a while I don't remember). I was new at mushroom growing at the time working exclusively out of Oss & Oeric's (Terrence and Dennis McKenna) little book Psilocybin: Magic Mushroom Growers Guide: A Handbook for Psilocybin Enthusiasts. This was before Paul Stamets published his books. I cannot say whether potency was increased, but the biochemistry of a natural precursor amino acid makes more sense to me than the adding a complete molecule of some foreign form of DMT which cannot be broken down and then reassembled by the mushroom. (I don't usually come to this forum, but I landed here, saw this, and put in my 2¢). :cheers: :bye:


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Dmt to raise psilocybin content? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #24188435 - 03/24/17 10:30 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

It's not foreign though, it's a building block to psilocin and psilocybin but more complete than tryptophan. In cubensis it builds tryptophan, decarboxylates it into tryptamine which is then either phosphylated or hydroxylated and methylated into psilocybin/psilocin. Some other psychedelic mushrooms also produce dmt as an intermediate, but in cubensis I do believe the methylation either happens at the same time as the hydroxylation/phosphorylation or it happens afterward bc afaik there has not been any n,n dmt found in cubes. To put it another way the difference between psilocin and dmt is an oxygen atom added to psilocin, the difference between psilocybin is a phospor atom.

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OfflineEywa_devotee
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Re: Dmt to raise psilocybin content? [Re: krypto2000]
    #24244678 - 04/14/17 08:38 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Nope, the mushies will only absorb so much of the DMT, and can only convert it during the early stages fruiting phase. In short it's a waste. Another way of making potent mushrooms is simply making the mycilium have to fight to stay alive. In response to stress they will make more alkaloids.


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