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OfflineTravelAgency
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Registered: 12/25/10
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Re: Update [Re: Forrester]
    #24513012 - 07/28/17 12:46 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Classical actually got me into metal :lol:  metal is so baroque.


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InvisibleMushenstein
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Re: Update [Re: Forrester]
    #24513811 - 07/28/17 12:52 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Maybe that's the problem, I just give too much of a shit on how my grows roll. I have my martha zipped up with a cool mist blowing for a half hour 4 times a day. Humidity is at 99% most of the time.
I think I will unzip that fukr and let the cool mist roll on every 2-3 hours. I got more pins coming, but it is not flushing like yours. I have 5 more bags colonizing right now so I have room for err.

I planned on letting them flush until they're exhausted and then wrapping the top back up, cutting the bottom open and trying to fruit the bottom of the bag. Its a theory. :hairmetal:


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Update [Re: Mushenstein]
    #24515019 - 07/28/17 11:19 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mushenstein said:
Maybe that's the problem, I just give too much of a shit on how my grows roll. I have my martha zipped up with a cool mist blowing for a half hour 4 times a day. Humidity is at 99% most of the time.
I think I will unzip that fukr and let the cool mist roll on every 2-3 hours. I got more pins coming, but it is not flushing like yours. I have 5 more bags colonizing right now so I have room for err.

I planned on letting them flush until they're exhausted and then wrapping the top back up, cutting the bottom open and trying to fruit the bottom of the bag. Its a theory. :hairmetal:




Hey, sounds like a good theory/idea, why not try it?  I seem to have had really good "beginners luck" with mushroom growing.  The last few grows I've tried have all triched out, even my SRA... although I think it's laziness after you think you have it "mastered", you get lax in your technique and fuck everything up.  But yeah, keep trying and keep it simple, eventually you'll hit a really good flush. 


But are you absolutely SURE that's the swordbelt strain you're growing with?  Kinda looks like the short, fat stem strain I worked with before that - few pins, usually right against the side of the bag, just like that pic I posted, it's almost like it's a completely different species, but it's not.  Just totally different in presentation.  I remember some discussion on myco-tek about Pioppino strains, there's the long skinny stem type, then there's the short, fat stem type.  The short, fat stem type has never flushed prolifically like the real Swordbelt strain.  I think I got the short fatty strain from TheSporeDepot (could be wrong, my memory sucks), but the actual Swordbelt strain I got from a fellow member here or on myco-tek, and it's what fruited that nice flush.  Maybe you got the wrong strain?  Just thinking out loud here, who knows, it could be conditions, but like I said I didn't really do anything different for both of those bags.

I'm working on downsizing my farm, so hopefully I will have the time to revive some cultures here soon and get growing again.  If I do, Swordbelt will be one of the first, so maybe I can help if I manage to get it revived.


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OfflineTravelAgency
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Re: Update [Re: Forrester]
    #24515265 - 07/29/17 02:35 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

If you do go that route Forrester be sure to hit me up I will send you some cultures- especially this balla  TurkeyTail I've got. I have a master jar of Piopinno, I was a beautiful culture though I doubt it was Swordbelt as it was incredibly slow. Just one of the many species just waiting to be expanded and spawned- I just need my steam sterilizer built and some more space and I'll have a ton going.

@Mushenstein: I still think you may need to up your FAE- while Piopinno doesn't require as much as oysters they still need a good bit. Also, if you are at 99% most of the time you aren't allowing evaporation off of the substrate's surface which is one of the primary pinning triggers, and very few species' optimum rH is that high. I can't remember them all off hand but I believe there is a chart in Stamets' Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms- most oysters like 93-96, and I remember shiitake's optimum is actually in the mid 80's! Try lowering your rH's high point by increasing FAE and then use your timer to let the humidity drop to the mid to high 80's before returning to Piopinno's optimum rH- I think this change may help trigger more pins.


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Update [Re: TravelAgency] * 1
    #24517103 - 07/29/17 11:50 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

For sure, I will, thanks man!

Quote:

TravelAgency said:
@Mushenstein: I still think you may need to up your FAE- while Piopinno doesn't require as much as oysters they still need a good bit. Also, if you are at 99% most of the time you aren't allowing evaporation off of the substrate's surface which is one of the primary pinning triggers, and very few species' optimum rH is that high. I can't remember them all off hand but I believe there is a chart in Stamets' Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms- most oysters like 93-96, and I remember shiitake's optimum is actually in the mid 80's! Try lowering your rH's high point by increasing FAE and then use your timer to let the humidity drop to the mid to high 80's before returning to Piopinno's optimum rH- I think this change may help trigger more pins.




All good advice and I wouldn't argue any of it - but here's where I doubt some of Stamets numbers (other than the nagging feeling that he just completely pulled them out of his ass...).

Ok so you have a room temperature shiitake bag (still sealed, browning), with no heat source lowering humidity - your RH inside that bag is going to be pretty damn close to 99%.  (I know this from leaving egg incubators with water in them but the heat/fan shut off - with no heat and a source of water, ie; your properly hydrated substrate, you're going to have near 99% humidity all the time.  So how can one list Shiitake's "optimum" pinning humidity at 80%?  Yeah I'm sure they'd pin fine there, but IMO humidity has almost nothing to do with shiitake's pinning trigger - it's a cold shock.  I've tested and proven this many, many times - mostly by accident when my bags weren't fully browned but the heater in the house went out and the temp dropped 10f or so, whaddayaknow, all the damn bags pinned, every time, every strain.  So to list a humidity number as "optimum" for pinning of a species who's pinning is triggered by something other than humidity, seems to me kinda... DERP.  I really think he pulled most of the numbers in that book right out of his fucking ass, it's completely useless if you ask me.  I've grown all kinds of species, and fruited them completely out of the ranges he gives in that book.  To me it's entirely useless, and not just because I don't like him - I just think the book is, as I've mentioned, extremely dated and useless.  It's no better than if I tried fruiting some mushrooms, and wrote down the parameters I fruited them in.  Yeah, maybe those temps and humidity ranges worked well for him for the strains he was working with at the time he wrote the book, in the specific environment he was in, but to list them as some kind of standard for every strain of that species for everyone to follow, I think is way off and not helpful at all.  Just my opinion though :shrug:

All the shiitake strains I ever grew pinned at about 99% humidity, since they were still in sealed bags (how you could even get 80% humidity inside a sealed bag I have no idea).  And I've grown cubes in a potted plant by a fucking window in the middle of winter (about 50f and 0% humidity by the window in a Maine winter), and they grew just fine.  (wasn't actually trying to grow them, read that "spent" substrate was good for plants - gave it to my wife for her plants she was starting early, and holy shit did some cubes grow out of those potted plants!)  Yeah the wife was kinda pissed about that one, since it was at her parents house :lol:

But yeah, IMO Stamets' numbers are for the most part just a basic guideline to start with, and are by NO means useful for anything but just that.  There are too many other factors at play to just list "optimum" temps and humidity ranges for all strains of a species.


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OfflineQuadman
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Re: Update [Re: Forrester]
    #24517915 - 07/30/17 01:14 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I hate to blow a hole in your theory . Last two batches of blocks didn't get slapped or cold shocked. Cut bag open soaked in water a couple hours rinsed heavily and fruited at 77° and 90% humidity. Oxygen allows fruit IMHO. These were 3782 which may contribute to success. I believe some shiitake absolutely need the cold shocked.


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Edited by Quadman (07/30/17 01:17 PM)


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OfflineTravelAgency
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Re: Update [Re: Quadman]
    #24518470 - 07/30/17 06:04 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I mostly agree with you Forrester- though Shiitake is different from Piopinno and I would argue these are optimum "Fruiting" rH not "pinning". But I see your point with Stamets pulling stuff out of his ass- you can get away with that when you're the only person to publish a book on cultivating for a couple decades :lol:  his arrogance is pretty astounding and to be honest I think most of his allegories on finding wild species is complete bullshit- but you've got to hand it to the man- he's helped bring Fungi into the mainstream and some of his Medicinal research has been undeniably important for humanity.  I still think upping FAE and allowing fluctuations in rH will help trigger the pins. And yeah you can definitely get some species/strains to pin in almost any environment (especially cubes) but it seems like whatever strain OP has will take a little coxing. I really think you should run your fans 24/7 unless you can't keep the humidity up.


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InvisibleMushenstein
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8/5 Update [Re: TravelAgency]
    #24532847 - 08/05/17 05:31 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Hey fellas, sorry about the long pauses man, I am working over 100 hours a week and I am still trying to get this green house dialed in.
Its either too much and everything is wet, too little and the blocks dry out, uuugggghhh. I did have a bit of luck on one of the blocks, check it out.

The pins were really cool looking.

Turned into some awesome mushrooms. :discodance:

Picked um, cooked them in butter 2 nights ago and had them on a NY strip steak at midnight. Boy they were good.

After this flush I am convenience this is not swordbelt. Suppose we could nickname it the munchkins.

The other bags are, well bags.


The small coffee bag started side and bottom pinning.
I just got 3 off the top that were small and not pic worthy.

All these bags are in my green house, but I can't seem to keep it stable. It just fluctuates too much.

I have some trays of other varieties that need to go in the GH. I really need to get it dialed in before I put them in there. They are kinda finicky.:sporedrop:

I could really use some direction. Should I put this cool mist on the middle shelf? Some people use a filter wick humidifier with a cool mist as well, is this what I am lacking or can this thing work as is???

The last nice flush pictured above was with the GH closed all the way and the cool mist turning on for a half hour four times a day. There wasn't a lot of FAE but it kinda worked. :ignorethetroll:


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OfflineTravelAgency
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Re: 8/5 Update [Re: Mushenstein]
    #24532929 - 08/05/17 06:13 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Nice lookin fruits mate!

:seriousthumbsup:


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InvisibleMushenstein
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Re: 8/5 Update [Re: TravelAgency]
    #24533315 - 08/05/17 08:40 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks Bro. I still think there is more to be had. Imma flip um over in a few days. See how that goes.


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InvisibleMushenstein
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Re: 8/7 kinda Update [Re: Mushenstein]
    #24538163 - 08/08/17 01:03 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

This is just a "check it out" kinda update. That bag that had all the coffee and just about everything I could find in my cupboard finally popped a mushy. No shit, stuck it in the basement, which is 20 degrees colder and it grew a thick, dark ass mushroom. Its still in the bag, I was waiting for more pins. No such luck. Its going in the GH in a day or two. I will get a pic when I cut the bag.
:fuckyeah:I will take a pic when I open the bag. But the cap was as dark as could be. Musta been all the extra nitrogen.

The other pic is one of the 2nd flush bags in the GH. I took this pic because a mushroom decided to push through the bag at the bottom. Pretty cool, but there must have been a hole in the bottom.


I do think there is something to be said for cold shocking stubborn blocks. I don't have my Shiitake strain anymore or I would be growing it out as well. I grew them last year and had a blast with the blocks and pf tek style Shiitake grow. After my grow was done my plate got pitched out with the spent cakes. Either way, I have 5 more AA bags I will post in the next 48 hours or so. They all are going well. The ingredients include animal crackers, dog food and a host of different calcium rich additives. I know, I know, its just for fun. Give me a day or two and I'll post um.
Hey Forester or Travel Agency, if either of you would like to trade out for a Shiitake wedge, I have this Black Poplar plated out. PM if your interested. I also have Bitorquis, but I can't get that damn thing to take to anything but an LC. Isn't that weird. Either way hit me up if you want swap.


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Update [Re: TravelAgency]
    #24538205 - 08/08/17 01:49 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TravelAgency said:
I mostly agree with you Forrester- though Shiitake is different from Piopinno and I would argue these are optimum "Fruiting" rH not "pinning". But I see your point with Stamets pulling stuff out of his ass- you can get away with that when you're the only person to publish a book on cultivating for a couple decades :lol:  his arrogance is pretty astounding and to be honest I think most of his allegories on finding wild species is complete bullshit- but you've got to hand it to the man- he's helped bring Fungi into the mainstream and some of his Medicinal research has been undeniably important for humanity.  I still think upping FAE and allowing fluctuations in rH will help trigger the pins. And yeah you can definitely get some species/strains to pin in almost any environment (especially cubes) but it seems like whatever strain OP has will take a little coxing. I really think you should run your fans 24/7 unless you can't keep the humidity up.




For sure dude - I think Stamets was probably pretty awesome when he wrote those books.  I think it was the fact that he was the only one doing it at the time and the massive recognition he got that made him run into money which, inevitably turned him into a douche.  Happens to a lot of folks :wink: 

But wait - you say his references are for fruiting not pinning - ok.  But... then you say upping FAE and allowing fluctuations in RH will help trigger pins?  There I gotta disagree.  I mean maybe I'm misunderstanding, but that's almost a contradiction.  If those are the conditions for fruiting, not pinning, why expose the block to those conditions trying to get it to pin?  Absolutely no strain of Shiitake needs FAE for pinning.  Or fluctuations in RH.  Most shiitake growers I've ever talked to wait for the block to get fully browned, almost ALWAYS invitro, THEN, (if you're me), just cold shock and it will pin, before you ever open the bag.  If you're RR or some others, yeah you can wait will it's fully browned but has not pinned, and then cold shock it, slap it, and strip the bag, and wait for it to hopefully pin then.  Either way works, but I still say RH/FAE has absolutely nothing to do with pinning triggers for shiitake.

Just my experience though, and reading that of many others :smile:


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OfflineTravelAgency
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Re: Update [Re: Forrester]
    #24538234 - 08/08/17 02:23 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I agree with you but this is Piopinno not Shiitake. From what I understand of the species evaporation from the substrate's surface is a major pinning trigger. And optimum pinning environment is different than optimum Fruiting environment- think King Oysters or Enoki- their pinning temp is lower than their Fruiting temp. And oysters like a higher humidity while pinning than while Fruiting (98% vs 95% on average)


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InvisibleMushenstein
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Re: Update [Re: TravelAgency]
    #24540178 - 08/08/17 11:21 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Is there any value in soaking these blocks? If so how long should I let them soak?


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OfflineTravelAgency
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Re: Update [Re: Mushenstein]
    #24540520 - 08/09/17 01:58 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

That I don't know. I never Soak my oysters. I'll do a dunk on Shiitake though sometimes. I'd say dunk a few don't dunk a few and compare! Keep us apprised.

Also- I think perhaps adding a casing could be beneficial. The physical similarities to cubensis just can't get out of my head- and while I know they are very different I'd be willing to stake that they like similar environments. But once again I'm just kind of thinking out loud as I have not fruited it yet myself.


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OfflineSolipsis
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Re: Update [Re: TravelAgency]
    #24540902 - 08/09/17 10:31 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

? Case where :smile:
The bags seem well protected... What would be the point of a casing layer, say around your block..

I have my ~3 grain jars massively colonized upon returning from vacation. Looking for hardwood sawdust for the substrate as I have only beech chips and softwood pet sawdust right now. (And bran and gypsum)

The myc is definitely not looking like cobweb anymore :wink: but I admit I don't know how cobweb consolidates.


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InvisibleMushenstein
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Re: Quick Update, fruit the bottoms! [Re: Solipsis]
    #24541012 - 08/09/17 11:42 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Damn dog, read the thread. It hasn't looked like cobweb for along time. This is a grow log now. But I appreciate your interest.  :dancingshroom: 


I soaked overnight. I cut the bottom of the bags off and flipped them over. Smelled really good, like mushrooms. TA, I think your right. A casing layer is what is needed. Give me a few hours and I will case the bottom of the bags, or new top surface.


They went into the sink to soak. I believe they should of had enough moisture in them to fruit again without the soak, but the surface kept drying out. So I soaked these two and will soak the others contingent on these results.
I'm definitely casing the new surface. I have some left over Peat/limestone casing that accidently got sterilized. Should be ok, so I will case tonight. :bananahorsey:


There was definitely invitro pinning and growing on the sides and bottom of the bag.


Just a little porn. Nitro bag with coffee and supplements grew a single mushie. It went into the GH as soon as I picked the flush!lol  :mushdance:


The small nitro and coffee bag had a little better first flush, but had a lot of side and bottom pinning. Back in the GH with it.


One mushie went right out the bottom. Maybe it was a really strong mushie?  :strong:


Several had some small leftover mushies, nothing too significant.

:hairmetal:


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InvisibleMushenstein
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Re: Solid Update [Re: Mushenstein]
    #24554296 - 08/14/17 10:06 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Had a decent fruit going on and the new bags started fruiting before the last ones finished.

:mushdance:


After removing the mature fruits there were still numerous small pins that have potential, but I find once I take the big fruits the rest like to abort.
:confused2:


I even had some the pushed through the bottom of the bag, literally. There was no hole in the bag. They definitely muscled they're way through.



This was from one bag. The total haul will go great with steak tomorrow night. :levitate:

The goal is to find a substrate recipe and a fruiting method that will produce a stable amount of mushrooms all year long. I eat a lot of mushrooms....for various reasons.

The two bags I flipped, cut the bottoms open and cased have not shown pins yet but I haven't given up on them. There is definitely no need for a casing while fruiting the top. I figured the only way the bottoms had a shot was through a casing, because the tops were spent.



The new bags are doing much better then the first during the initial flush. One of the bags even had "animal crackers", or cookies as an additive. It will be interesting to see what substrate additive out performs what. Some have dog food, cereal etc. but all have egg shells, bone meal and gypsum.

:freewilly:


:mushdance:
I'm still waiting on a second flush on two bags. If they don't flush well I will know which ingredients to leave out.


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OfflineSolipsis
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Re: Solid Update [Re: Mushenstein]
    #24555070 - 08/15/17 08:37 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

They muscled their way through? Wow..
Nice chestnutty ones again, they remind me a little of Cubensis. (Ah TA said that already ha) and the animal crackers lol.. haven't heard that one before...

How would you describe their taste? Any substrate additives in general that are known to affect flavor noticeably?


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InvisibleMushenstein
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Re: Solid Update [Re: Solipsis]
    #24555238 - 08/15/17 10:39 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

That is a really good point, I don't know. I will let you know after I eat them tonight. Given the first two batches I would say that they definitely get stronger in taste with the additives, but their wonderful. Maybe these will taste like animal crackers. LOL

I tell you what, you and TA are right. These AA's colonize, fruit, sporulate and look like cubensis. I would have to say I haven't got a buzz off of them yet, but the growth parameters are definitely similar as well.

Last night's flush was the culmination of 6 to 8 months of growing. So I think they are a little bit harder to grow than cubes, but not by much.


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