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CubeSteakPoo
Stranger


Registered: 04/27/16
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Breaking up Grain Bags
#24081893 - 02/11/17 10:23 AM (7 years, 11 months ago) |
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Hey Guys
So I've been letting a grain bag colonize for about a month now and its gone really slow ( most likely due to my lower temps). And yesterday i decided to break them up as a tek has suggested when you want to speed up growth.
The tek did specify to be careful when breaking them up as to not damage the mycelium, and although i did my best to break it up carefully, some of the mycelium has turned a dark dark blue almost a black. I assume its just heavy bruising, but if the mycelium turns black, does that mean its been too damaged and is now dead?
If it is damaged too badly, will the mycelium network be able to recover as it starts to regrow? or will these dark black spots stay black and the healthy mycelium unable to grow over it?
Pics Below

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Josh.0
ConnoissurOfSorts


Registered: 11/25/13
Posts: 553
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Is this pic right after you broke it up? What was the innocculent used? What's the temp like? It Should be straight as long as myc is the sole tendent in your bag. Neading a bag is the same as shaking up a jar..I doubt it will slow down or not recolonize Your Using rye correct? When I would use whole brown rice it would blue like crazy(contrasts well against a off-white grain) The tubs that were made from it turnout just fine I doubt you killed your bag
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



Registered: 02/15/12
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Re: Breaking up Grain Bags [Re: Josh.0]
#24081947 - 02/11/17 10:51 AM (7 years, 11 months ago) |
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I shake the bejeesus out of grain jars and never get bruising like that.
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CubeSteakPoo
Stranger


Registered: 04/27/16
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Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
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Re: Breaking up Grain Bags [Re: Josh.0]
#24082017 - 02/11/17 11:27 AM (7 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Josh.0 said: Is this pic right after you broke it up? What was the innocculent used? What's the temp like? It Should be straight as long as myc is the sole tendent in your bag. Neading a bag is the same as shaking up a jar..I doubt it will slow down or not recolonize Your Using rye correct? When I would use whole brown rice it would blue like crazy(contrasts well against a off-white grain) The tubs that were made from it turnout just fine I doubt you killed your bag
This pic was taken like the next day, I used a spore syringe, the temperature was around 66-68 degrees, but i recently move it into an area of my house that gets it to 70 degrees stable.
Yes I am using Rye.
On a side not, while this thing was colonizing before i broke it up, i was handling it a decent amount. I would pick the bag up out of the cupboard to look at it, and in the process my fingers were touching colonized portions of the bag, and once i did that there was very minor and slight bruising afterwards.
I almost think that it go so dark because it had already been PREVIOUSLY bruised, and when i actually broke it up, the already bruised mycelium got much darker.
Any more thoughts?
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CubeSteakPoo
Stranger


Registered: 04/27/16
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Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
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Quote:
Psilosopherr said: I shake the bejeesus out of grain jars and never get bruising like that.
I also shook my grain jars i had, and did not get bruising like the bag, but again, I think that the bags being already slightly bruised contributed to such dark bruising. does this seem like a fair assumption?
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CapnZ
Dimensional explorer



Registered: 12/22/16
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I've broken up a lot of grain bags, pretty enthusiastically and never got bruising like that. Nowhere close. Possibly bacteria. Watch how quickly the bag recovers.
-------------------- Deep into the darkness peering, long I stood there wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before...
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CubeSteakPoo
Stranger


Registered: 04/27/16
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Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
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Re: Breaking up Grain Bags [Re: CapnZ]
#24082176 - 02/11/17 12:55 PM (7 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
CapnZ said: I've broken up a lot of grain bags, pretty enthusiastically and never got bruising like that. Nowhere close. Possibly bacteria. Watch how quickly the bag recovers.
If this is bacteria, should it have a strong smell? and if the black starts to fade back to white that should tell me that it was indeed heavy bruising correct? Does Mycelium recover from bruising? ( in respect to turning white again)
And in respect to your many grain bags that you have broken up, were any of them already previously bruised?
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Brain Fart
Mushroom Nerd



Registered: 12/19/07
Posts: 2,538
Loc: Your Mom
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That is bacteria/mold.
I have shaken, beat, slammed, and roughly handled grain bags.the slow colonization is due to contamination.
That is not bruising.. shakong grain you don't need to wory about damaging myc.
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CapnZ
Dimensional explorer



Registered: 12/22/16
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Re: Breaking up Grain Bags [Re: Brain Fart]
#24082413 - 02/11/17 02:54 PM (7 years, 11 months ago) |
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None of my grain bags ever bruised.
-------------------- Deep into the darkness peering, long I stood there wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before...
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CubeSteakPoo
Stranger


Registered: 04/27/16
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Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
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Re: Breaking up Grain Bags [Re: CapnZ]
#24082698 - 02/11/17 05:02 PM (7 years, 11 months ago) |
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Ok I think im gonna toss it out, MY grain jars dont have this issue at all, and when i got these from **** there were some negatives reviews on the bags in particular, so im not surprised it got contaminated.
Im just surprised because it appeared to be a clean colonization before i broke it up, but i guess that contamination was in the middle of the grains and thats how it got exposed
Edited by Prisoner#1 (02/11/17 07:18 PM)
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CapnZ
Dimensional explorer



Registered: 12/22/16
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Totally possible.
-------------------- Deep into the darkness peering, long I stood there wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before...
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Brain Fart
Mushroom Nerd



Registered: 12/19/07
Posts: 2,538
Loc: Your Mom
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**** is awesome. Bags in general are just trickier than jars IME. I only use bags to g2g to from jars before spawning to bulk.
Mike at Out-Grow is the man. His products are great. I'm gonna have to say the error was probably on your end
Edited by Prisoner#1 (02/11/17 07:19 PM)
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CubeSteakPoo
Stranger


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Re: Breaking up Grain Bags [Re: Brain Fart]
#24082980 - 02/11/17 06:52 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Brain Fart said: Out Grow is awesome. Bags in general are just trickier than jars IME. I only use bags to g2g to from jars before spawning to bulk.
Mike at ...... is the man. His products are great. I'm gonna have to say the error was probably on your end 
Well the only thing that I could think of on my end that would be in error would hypothetically be my sterile technique. But my sterile technique with every single other substrate method (jars, BRF cakes) have been absolutely fine. no contamination. I take excessive sterile technique precautions. And seeing as how i did my jars and grain bag at the same time, it makes little sense that my inoculation procedure was the cause of contamination. Especially considering all the bad reviews of this specific product.
Edited by Prisoner#1 (02/11/17 07:19 PM)
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seventy7
not quite 78


Registered: 01/10/17
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Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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I started with bags (unsuccessfully) before jars after reading bags were 'easier'. And I know now they're easier but they pose different challenges than jars. The biggest difference I found: when you handle or pick up the bag in any way, it changes the volume of the bag, which pushes air in/out of the filter as the bag changes shape. Also, the walls of the bag press on the grain when you pick up the bag. That's not to say bags are bad, but I feel like excessive handling of bags can be bad for these reasons (TCs shut me up if Im wrong )
These problems dont exist when using jars as the glass holds its shape and keeps everything still. I would reccomend trying a jar run, as a beginner it felt a lot easier.
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Brain Fart
Mushroom Nerd



Registered: 12/19/07
Posts: 2,538
Loc: Your Mom
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I incoculated a bag and jar same syringe.
Bag went bad. Jar is fine. Bags are just not ideal for inoculating without selfhealing inoc ports imo. I use them for g2g only
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blindingleaf
blue collar underworld


Registered: 07/19/13
Posts: 22,008
Loc: sub-surface unseen
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Re: Breaking up Grain Bags [Re: Brain Fart]
#24083912 - 02/12/17 07:23 AM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
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well im standing next to my spawn bag....and I break it up with the edge of my hand.
I mix up all the pieces with some substrate, I might not even have to mist and fan
-------------------- A few thoughts on cultivation
MICROBIAL HUSBANDRY!!!!
The whole is greater than the sum of its parts
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Brain Fart
Mushroom Nerd



Registered: 12/19/07
Posts: 2,538
Loc: Your Mom
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Quote:
blindingleaf said: well im standing next to my spawn bag....and I break it up with the edge of my hand.
I mix up all the pieces with some substrate, I might not even have to mist and fan 
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CubeSteakPoo
Stranger


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Re: Breaking up Grain Bags [Re: seventy7]
#24084234 - 02/12/17 10:08 AM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
seventy7 said: I started with bags (unsuccessfully) before jars after reading bags were 'easier'. And I know now they're easier but they pose different challenges than jars. The biggest difference I found: when you handle or pick up the bag in any way, it changes the volume of the bag, which pushes air in/out of the filter as the bag changes shape. Also, the walls of the bag press on the grain when you pick up the bag. That's not to say bags are bad, but I feel like excessive handling of bags can be bad for these reasons (TCs shut me up if Im wrong )
These problems dont exist when using jars as the glass holds its shape and keeps everything still. I would reccomend trying a jar run, as a beginner it felt a lot easier.
That Makes a lot of sense, Do you think that by changing the volume and pushing air in/out of the bag by constant handling, somehow compromised the filter?
I mean ultimatley 1 of 2 things have happened, either this bag wasnt properly sterilized or the contamination happened at some point during colonization. I mean this bad was colonizing for about a month, and it almost covered half the bag, and there seemed to be no contamination, everything was a nice white with little bits of blue from where i was touching them. Only when i broke them up did the black become exposed.
Anyway I'm glad i got the bag for free because there was a mix up with my order and OUTGROW gave me my grain jars for free. I think I'm always going to use jars they just seem much more fool proof.
Can you dump contaminated grains into nature (outside) and if they fruit would that mean that they have kind of filtered themselves out of the contaminant? is it worth to just throw these outside and see what happenes? or is it possible for like the mushroom to absorb the contaminant and create a poisonous mushroom?
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Brain Fart
Mushroom Nerd



Registered: 12/19/07
Posts: 2,538
Loc: Your Mom
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Quote:
CubeSteakPoo said:
Quote:
seventy7 said: I started with bags (unsuccessfully) before jars after reading bags were 'easier'. And I know now they're easier but they pose different challenges than jars. The biggest difference I found: when you handle or pick up the bag in any way, it changes the volume of the bag, which pushes air in/out of the filter as the bag changes shape. Also, the walls of the bag press on the grain when you pick up the bag. That's not to say bags are bad, but I feel like excessive handling of bags can be bad for these reasons (TCs shut me up if Im wrong )
These problems dont exist when using jars as the glass holds its shape and keeps everything still. I would reccomend trying a jar run, as a beginner it felt a lot easier.
That Makes a lot of sense, Do you think that by changing the volume and pushing air in/out of the bag by constant handling, somehow compromised the filter?
I mean ultimatley 1 of 2 things have happened, either this bag wasnt properly sterilized or the contamination happened at some point during colonization. I mean this bad was colonizing for about a month, and it almost covered half the bag, and there seemed to be no contamination, everything was a nice white with little bits of blue from where i was touching them. Only when i broke them up did the black become exposed.
Anyway I'm glad i got the bag for free because there was a mix up with my order and OUTGROW gave me my grain jars for free. I think I'm always going to use jars they just seem much more fool proof.
Can you dump contaminated grains into nature (outside) and if they fruit would that mean that they have kind of filtered themselves out of the contaminant? is it worth to just throw these outside and see what happenes? or is it possible for like the mushroom to absorb the contaminant and create a poisonous mushroom?
Mike at outgrow is awesome..great vendor.
You also could easily have introduced contamination at the time of inoculation regardless of how sterile you think you were.
Sure put it outside. Bury the grains with a thin amount of earth or jiffy mux and keep moist (as long as it is warm outside)
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CubeSteakPoo
Stranger


Registered: 04/27/16
Posts: 95
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
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Re: Breaking up Grain Bags [Re: Brain Fart]
#24084392 - 02/12/17 10:53 AM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Brain Fart said:
Quote:
CubeSteakPoo said:
Quote:
seventy7 said: I started with bags (unsuccessfully) before jars after reading bags were 'easier'. And I know now they're easier but they pose different challenges than jars. The biggest difference I found: when you handle or pick up the bag in any way, it changes the volume of the bag, which pushes air in/out of the filter as the bag changes shape. Also, the walls of the bag press on the grain when you pick up the bag. That's not to say bags are bad, but I feel like excessive handling of bags can be bad for these reasons (TCs shut me up if Im wrong )
These problems dont exist when using jars as the glass holds its shape and keeps everything still. I would reccomend trying a jar run, as a beginner it felt a lot easier.
That Makes a lot of sense, Do you think that by changing the volume and pushing air in/out of the bag by constant handling, somehow compromised the filter?
I mean ultimatley 1 of 2 things have happened, either this bag wasnt properly sterilized or the contamination happened at some point during colonization. I mean this bad was colonizing for about a month, and it almost covered half the bag, and there seemed to be no contamination, everything was a nice white with little bits of blue from where i was touching them. Only when i broke them up did the black become exposed.
Anyway I'm glad i got the bag for free because there was a mix up with my order and OUTGROW gave me my grain jars for free. I think I'm always going to use jars they just seem much more fool proof.
Can you dump contaminated grains into nature (outside) and if they fruit would that mean that they have kind of filtered themselves out of the contaminant? is it worth to just throw these outside and see what happenes? or is it possible for like the mushroom to absorb the contaminant and create a poisonous mushroom?
Mike at outgrow is awesome..great vendor.
You also could easily have introduced contamination at the time of inoculation regardless of how sterile you think you were.
Sure put it outside. Bury the grains with a thin amount of earth or jiffy mux and keep moist (as long as it is warm outside)
Is it possible to bury them deep enough into the ground to where they can insulate themselves and stay dormant until the warmer months come around?
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



Registered: 02/15/12
Posts: 12,283
Last seen: 19 days, 22 hours
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maybe baby. Buried water tanks don't freeze, or so I hear anyway
they may suffocate down there? dunno
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seventy7
not quite 78


Registered: 01/10/17
Posts: 62
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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From what I've heard the filters on the bags work just fine... but my gut reaction is that the extra air pushed thru the filter either compromises it or forces bacteria through. 17/18 bags used contaminated vs 0/12 jars using the same LC. As a beginner it's hard to say for sure what the problem was but all of the problems that were happening with bags stopped immediately when using jars. In my opinion, it feels like bags are something that shouldn't be disturbed until it's time to shake or spawn, and as a beginner it's only natural to want to pick up and inspect grain to make sure everything is going well.
My best educated guess based on my own experiences.
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CubeSteakPoo
Stranger


Registered: 04/27/16
Posts: 95
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
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Re: Breaking up Grain Bags [Re: seventy7]
#24084965 - 02/12/17 01:55 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
seventy7 said: From what I've heard the filters on the bags work just fine... but my gut reaction is that the extra air pushed thru the filter either compromises it or forces bacteria through. 17/18 bags used contaminated vs 0/12 jars using the same LC. As a beginner it's hard to say for sure what the problem was but all of the problems that were happening with bags stopped immediately when using jars. In my opinion, it feels like bags are something that shouldn't be disturbed until it's time to shake or spawn, and as a beginner it's only natural to want to pick up and inspect grain to make sure everything is going well.
My best educated guess based on my own experiences.
thats a very good analysis thanks for the input, thats what i think as well
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blindingleaf
blue collar underworld


Registered: 07/19/13
Posts: 22,008
Loc: sub-surface unseen
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just to clarify in case someone reads this thread in the future- not sure about anything bigger than .5 micron bags, but .2 and .5, if properly sealed, won't have any air pushed out if squeezed. maybe u can smell mycelium from the filter, but the amount of air coming out is negligible. if u DO feel air when u squeeze a bag, u need to check the seal, it probably failed. in this case, if the bag was squeezed a lot, contamination was probably sucked in from the failed seal, and the bag is then compromised a few days later.
I agree tho thats jars are much easier and more fool proof
-------------------- A few thoughts on cultivation
MICROBIAL HUSBANDRY!!!!
The whole is greater than the sum of its parts
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Scared newbie
Cautiously Scarry


Registered: 04/17/20
Posts: 7
Loc: Michigan
Last seen: 4 years, 6 months
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I just broke up my green bags and spawned to bulk. As soon as I was done mixing the bag everything turns blue! Will my trays still grow??? Somebody anybody please help!! Am I okay?
-------------------- Scared Newbie, just trying to soak up all the skills I can while learning the trade... Sorry in advance for all my questions! I'm sure plenty are to follow...
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