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InvisibleComebackKid
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Re: Foil VS. Lids / CBK bottom watering tek [Re: Adden] * 1
    #24061080 - 02/02/17 07:40 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

Dude no offense but I think you're blowing this waaaaay out of proportion.

Bottom watering is a proven method and is perfectly safe and pleanty benificial for any grow.

From violets tek
Quote:

Violet said:
BOTTOM-WATERING is a solution to balance the water-to-nutrition ratio (can be thought of conceptually as the likes of 1:10 respectively) by gradually feeding water to the grain cake as they draw moisture up into mushrooms.

Fully-colonized substrates can be hydrated with tap water, and mycelium easily move water across substrates to growing mushrooms, so there is no need for any extra steps to provide our grows with the amount of water they require for optimum yield (and no water goes wasted).


It is truly as simple as it sounds.
Once the cake has shrunk enough due to the first flush to pull away from the sides of the container, add water to come up to at least half way up the side of the cake depending on its height.  If there is very little space on the sides, a small amount of water may come almost up to the casing level, which is okay.

The most important time to water is when pins are starting to grow.

You will see it gradually disappear into the cake and ultimately into mushrooms.


If a cake has not drawn up lingering water by 3-4 days after a flush is harvested I often remove that water until the next round of pins is growing since this is usually a sign that the cake has enough water for now and they will not use more until it is being moved to larger forming fruits.


Why does bottom-watering work, and so well?
Colonized sub can hold more water than uncolonized sub material; once it's colonized it can soak it up like a sponge and be just fine. Thus all water does not have to be present in the substrate at colonization.
Dunks are obviously not a sterile procedure. Immediately after "birthing" PF cakes they go straight to a dunk!, because fully-colonized sub is extremely resistant to contamination. Once grains are fully colonized & consolidated you can definitely use non-sterile water without risk.

Therefore, and since mycelium can absorb and migrate moisture:  All water does not have to be present in the substrate for fruiting, either.

Since these cakes are small they have plenty of area to take-in moisture and nowhere that is too far from that moisture as to become anhydrous.


Here are six excellent containers of multi-spore AA+ by Anne:




The cakes can and will flush, flush, flush, & flush again!
They will not stop until contaminating or until they have had enough water to expend their nutrition fruiting.

Just a few photos to give an idea. Will add some more as I can take them.
Some of my first flushes with multi-spore...


3rd flushes from some ok clones...


4th/5th flushes, perhaps even beyond!


Cakes become smushy soggy piles of spent mycelium a fraction of their original size in 4-7 flushes.
Let them keep going and keep the water coming!




The amount of water violet is using in her write-up is almost double the amount I suggest to use in mine. And she even implys that you could be using more than that!

Bacterial cakes are not a symptom caused by bottom watering


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Edited by ComebackKid (02/02/17 07:58 PM)


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Re: Foil VS. Lids / CBK bottom watering tek [Re: ComebackKid] * 1
    #24061102 - 02/02/17 07:50 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

The only instance where I can see bottom-watering being counterproductive is when you add the water way before pinning starts or leave it pooling there once the pins have taken all the water they could use. It's a matter of reading what the mushrooms need.

I see a benefit to bottom watering if the pinset is going to be heavy and it becomes obvious that the water content of the cake will not be able to sustain it.


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Re: Foil VS. Lids / CBK bottom watering tek [Re: Josex] * 1
    #24061147 - 02/02/17 08:05 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

Exactly!
With a heavy pinset on a cake you're going to end up with skinny short fruits unless you can supply enough water.
A dunk and regular misting will not be able to provide enough water no matter what you do.

As long as there are pins you're fine


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InvisibleTheMadHatter420
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Re: Foil VS. Lids / CBK bottom watering tek [Re: ComebackKid] * 1
    #24061646 - 02/02/17 11:51 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

Bottom watering was well worth it for me. Even with, I still could not supply enough water. The cakes in my sig were bottom watered. I lost 2/3 of the pins to aborts, most likely the cake aborted them cause they all could not be supplied with enough water. I was getting like 200+ pins on many of these.

I know someone will give me some shit for saying this. If your woried, put a tiny bit of peroxide in the water. Will fight bacteria and mycelium will be fine. Change water every 12 hrs.


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Re: Foil VS. Lids / CBK bottom watering tek [Re: TheMadHatter420]
    #24061655 - 02/02/17 11:57 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

Peroxide breaks down into water in the presence of light. That's why it comes in a opaque brown bottle. Unless you fruit in the dark the peroxide is plain water very quick.


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InvisibleTheMadHatter420
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Re: Foil VS. Lids / CBK bottom watering tek [Re: Pastywhyte] * 1
    #24062336 - 02/03/17 10:06 AM (7 years, 14 days ago)

This is true pasty, so not very effective the 1st time, but on round 2+ of the bottom wattering, adding just a bit can weaken any bacteria that started to grow in what ever tray you have under your cakes. So when you change the water, it will weaken any bacteria and hopefully keep them weak enough that they don't continue to grow and divide. It will not be an end all on bacteria, but can cause enough damage to slow its life cycle down buying time for us. Kind of like pressure cooking jars doesn't kill everything, but gives us a few week window for the mycelium to take hold.

I am not sure how long it takes the peroxide to break down, you are right though, it is quick though. But hey even if it breakes down in 15 min, it still fucked up most bacteria in there, and constantly changing it brings in fresh peroxide. Think of it like hand sanitizer, kills on contact but don't do much unless reapplied.

At the very least one should wash their bottom watering trays, if you have enough to trade out, or rinse them with the peroxide.

I will stand behind bottom watering and go so far as to say that if it causes contamination, then it was user error. Just changing the water reguarly and rinsing the trays out will go a long way.


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Foil VS. Lids / CBK bottom watering tek [Re: TheMadHatter420]
    #24062364 - 02/03/17 10:19 AM (7 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

TheMadHatter420 said:
Bottom watering was well worth it for me. Even with, I still could not supply enough water. The cakes in my sig were bottom watered. I lost 2/3 of the pins to aborts, most likely the cake aborted them cause they all could not be supplied with enough water. I was getting like 200+ pins on many of these.

I know someone will give me some shit for saying this. If your woried, put a tiny bit of peroxide in the water. Will fight bacteria and mycelium will be fine. Change water every 12 hrs.



You would be far better off using like 100-200ppm of chlorine than peroxide, peroxide is pretty useless.


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Re: Foil VS. Lids / CBK bottom watering tek [Re: bodhisatta]
    #24062381 - 02/03/17 10:26 AM (7 years, 14 days ago)

Most bacteria is pretty harmless to a fully colonized substrate. Bacteria won't bloom in plain water with no nutrition. Adding peroxide to bottom water is an ineffective solution to a non existent problem IMO.


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Re: Foil VS. Lids / CBK bottom watering tek [Re: Pastywhyte] * 1
    #24062414 - 02/03/17 10:47 AM (7 years, 14 days ago)

I guess I am just over cautious. 13 years in food industyr will do that to you. As far as the chlorine I never thaught abut that. Now I wonder how much is in my tap water. Although, chlorine has the issue of evaporating out of water.

Pasty your right, a clean colonized sub should be fine. Please keep in mind your a god, and many of us are mice. We still fuck shit up. Some may spawn a cake a bit to soon.

Good example here. I had 2 pint cakes from 1st round of gettin back into growing. They got bacteria and stalled at about 75%. I said fuck it and used them for an experiment. I slipped the lid and soaked both in full strength 3% peroxide and let sit a couple hours. Then drained and slipped a half inch dry vermiculite in there. Flipped jard upside down so left over peroxide ran down and was captureds by vermiculite. The recovered and fully colonized. I crumbled them into a tray with a pint of coir. Wish I had pic to share.

Yes they triched out but I pulled 3/4 a dry oz off 1st flush. Would have never got it without peroxide, so I don't think it is fully useless, just some people expect it to be a miracle cure, which it is not, BUT it will SLOW bacteria down, NOT knock it out. So if you spawn to soon, noobs, it can help you get something instead of nothing. Those of you who have mastered clean spawn really don't have any use for it.


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Re: Foil VS. Lids / CBK bottom watering tek [Re: TheMadHatter420] * 1
    #24062609 - 02/03/17 12:29 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

First off I'm just a regular guy. I don't even have a flowhood. I am careful with my culture practices but it's not hard to do that. Anyone can do it

Second I'm not convinced that the peroxide has anything to do with you pulling a yield before the bacterial cakes spawned to coir triched out. Sounds quite normal and would be the same result I would expect to see without the peroxide.

Third, the only gods round these parts are stonesun and workman.


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Re: Foil VS. Lids / CBK bottom watering tek [Re: Pastywhyte] * 1
    #24062897 - 02/03/17 03:10 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

The cakes had been stalled for about a week. The peroxide killed/weakened enough bacteria that they started to colonize again and finished. This part would not have happened, in my opinion, without peroxide. I honestly knew they would trich as they were bacterial as fuck, using peroxde I got something instead of nothing.

It is very possible that I am just to worried. I am slowly getting away from peroxide as I work with agar. Peroxide most likely does not have a place in the lab of an experianced grower. When in early days of growing, it can help us correct errros or atleast fight off contamination a little longer to get some fruits. Can meen the difference between getting discouraged and quiting, or going in for another round.

Peroxide may not be needed but I think it gets much unneeded hate.

And with that I really should stop highjacking this thread.

Best wishes to all on any grow!


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Re: Foil VS. Lids / CBK bottom watering tek [Re: TheMadHatter420]
    #24062906 - 02/03/17 03:17 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

Peroxide harms cube mycelium. Anything that harms cube mycelium is a vector for mold.

I know new people want to feel they have safety net. But your best safety net in this hobby is to not need one.


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Re: Foil VS. Lids / CBK bottom watering tek [Re: Pastywhyte] * 1
    #24062929 - 02/03/17 03:30 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

spawn, and the net will appear :mindexpanding:


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Re: Foil VS. Lids / CBK bottom watering tek [Re: spacechildo]
    #24062968 - 02/03/17 03:54 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

Just curious, as its some thing I have considered, what's your take on using antibiotics, specialy in LC? Is it worth it or just overkill?

Also I have had agar plates that visually are clean, but after a bit of time, I can get that faint bacteria smell. What advice can you give? If I smell it is it really there? How can I eliminate what I can not see?


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Re: Foil VS. Lids / CBK bottom watering tek [Re: TheMadHatter420]
    #24063126 - 02/03/17 04:52 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

Antibiotics are only to be used in agar and only if cleaning up wild prints or clones. No reason to need them for anything else.

If you smell bacteria it's probably present. Increase PC times if you suspect contamination.


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Re: Foil VS. Lids / CBK bottom watering tek [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #24063727 - 02/03/17 09:28 PM (7 years, 13 days ago)

Thanks pasty. I always appreciate your input. Guess I am just paranoid and need to learn to trust my skill.

I been doing your EZ agar tk with 1/2 pint jars. The transfers go well, 95% turn out no visable signs of bacteria. Then when close to fully colonizing plate, I can some times get that faint bacteria smell. I PC my plates 30 min at 15psi. Perhaps there will always be a slight smell? I meen I used one to make LC, yes I used lil of that dreded peroxide, it has given me18QT of the best spawn I have ever had. So I'm just kind of lost here. Maybe I am not really smelling bacteria.


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Re: Foil VS. Lids / CBK bottom watering tek [Re: TheMadHatter420]
    #24063856 - 02/03/17 10:17 PM (7 years, 13 days ago)

You will see the bacteria on the surface. I think you are okay.


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Re: Foil VS. Lids / CBK bottom watering tek [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #24064257 - 02/04/17 03:32 AM (7 years, 13 days ago)

I dont understand where the peroxide thing came from fungi are living things peroxide would be bad for them, what started it? Peroxide should be left for eminem wannabees and slutty womens hair.


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Re: Foil VS. Lids / CBK bottom watering tek [Re: mrmazdarx9] * 1
    #24064800 - 02/04/17 10:29 AM (7 years, 13 days ago)

Peroxide became big when people were fruiting in fishtanks and other choke contraptions. Cobweb mold (dactyllium) was a real problem and ran amuck in those high CO2 environments. Because cubes could survive a spraying of H2O2 but it killed dactyllium immediately, it was the best option for controlling those outbreaks.

Time passed, we got better at fruiting design, the cobweb became a contam we never see anymore, and peroxide hung on as a noobs last hope despite having very little actual use.


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Re: Foil VS. Lids / CBK bottom watering tek [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #24064842 - 02/04/17 10:48 AM (7 years, 13 days ago)

:popcorn:

Good stuff.


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