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OfflineTipote
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Re: Is violence against Nazis ok? [Re: qman]
    #24038798 - 01/25/17 02:20 PM (7 years, 5 days ago)

I'm not ignoring anyone except for HU except if i'm desperate to laugh at how moronic he is. :lol:

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Tipote said:
The far right are on the rise, neo nazis are stronger than they have been for a long time, and muslims are the new jews in many ways. Refugee centres and mosques are under attack throughout Europe.







Where are the examples of you 'pointing out Muslims/Blacks doing the same thing to white communities.'?

So are you suggesting that the existence of racism and persecution is proof that cultural diversity has failed?

Did the holocaust also make your case, qman?


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War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: Is violence against Nazis ok? [Re: qman] * 2
    #24038806 - 01/25/17 02:23 PM (7 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Tipote said:
Quote:

Morel Guy said:
Just ignore the silly fucks.




Why?




Ignore MG, he's a self admitted mentally ill person.




And you are Nazi enough to dehumanize someone with an illness.


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Offlinesprinkles
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Re: Is violence against Nazis ok? [Re: Tipote]
    #24038854 - 01/25/17 02:48 PM (7 years, 5 days ago)

yes violence is justified. in many circumstances.


There must be consequences for a person who deliberately inflicts harm on another.  An eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth. Bible also commands us "thou shall not kill."  Turn the page "for those who do shall surely die."


There has to be justice for the victim and their suffering.  Also for their family.  That is the only thing that should matter. Fuck everyone else and their stupid opinions.  They're idiots.


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Invisibleelax420
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Re: Is violence against Nazis ok? [Re: Tipote] * 1
    #24038913 - 01/25/17 03:10 PM (7 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Tipote said:
I agree, but at what point would you say things change? As in, if they are just speaking in the street then thats one thing but I think when they start to act on their beliefs then things change...

How speech is governed in the US and UK is very different. Incitement is a serious thing here so Nazis cross the line earlier.

What do you think about the Spencer punch? Do you consider him a Nazi? Do you see alt-right as synonymous with Nazism?





Ya UK has better laws with shit like this. I was happy when the finally arrested that choudhurry guy.


I mean I wouldn't punch the guy myself as at that moment he wasn't out of line, but I'm not going to cry for a nazi. I think that answers the second question as well :lol:




My outlook is: I'm not gonna physically attack someone for being an idiot, however if they are degrading people spreading hate speech publically and unremorsefully that's when I would act.



I think there is no distinguishable difference between Spencer's ideology and Nazism,




What about you?


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OfflineTipote
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Re: Is violence against Nazis ok? [Re: elax420]
    #24039021 - 01/25/17 03:50 PM (7 years, 5 days ago)

Yes I agree with you and I think you put that bit about the punching quite well.

and yes choudary is a cunt, it was a long time coming.


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Offlinemyc10is
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Re: Is violence against Nazis ok? [Re: Tipote]
    #24039302 - 01/25/17 05:06 PM (7 years, 5 days ago)

It seems the intent of your question is ambiguous. I was trying to feel you out and explore the idea some. What is it that you mean when you say mobilize. Are you speaking of them holding a rally or a protest? Are you speaking of military style mobilization? The GIF is of a specific event where a man was punched over his ideas, while peacefully speaking to reporters. That is what I was basing my response off of.

I guess my position is that in a civil society we have an obligation to allow others to express any idea, no matter how bad. If one accepts violence as an answer to words, then by nature they are accepting the limitation of what can be said through intimidation. If an idea is truly incompatible with civil society the answer is not to stoop to the level of the uncivil, but to debate the idea and prove it wrong through debate and intellectually honest commentary. Violence will only make their position seem more cemented in their world view, and make people sympathetic due to the fact that they are victimized.

If you mean "Should it be OK to fight back against people who are attacking others", the answer is simple. Shoot them in the face. If you are asking if it would be OK if we physically attack members of the Third Reich, should they mobilize again, then the answer is, certainly! But other than that, the only point is to punish someone because they are expressing an idea that is offensive.


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Is violence against Nazis ok? [Re: myc10is]
    #24039718 - 01/25/17 08:17 PM (7 years, 5 days ago)

I have no problem killing nazis, I think it is a right action as it prevents harm to others, kill them all.


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Invisibleelax420
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Re: Is violence against Nazis ok? [Re: Tipote] * 3
    #24039728 - 01/25/17 08:20 PM (7 years, 5 days ago)

I have an authorian side to my political/ideological viewpoints.


Free speech has its limits. When you make a life out of spreading hate and inviting violence, you shouldn't expect the protection of the state or the public.


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OfflineTipote
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Re: Is violence against Nazis ok? [Re: myc10is]
    #24040541 - 01/26/17 07:22 AM (7 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

myc10is said:
It seems the intent of your question is ambiguous. I was trying to feel you out and explore the idea some.



Thank you for your post. Yes the OP was somewhat intentionally vague, I was hoping it would spark debate, get people thinking and its helpful for me to reflect on the direction I take on this.
Quote:

What is it that you mean when you say mobilize. Are you speaking of them holding a rally or a protest? Are you speaking of military style mobilization? The GIF is of a specific event where a man was punched over his ideas, while peacefully speaking to reporters. That is what I was basing my response off of.




Yes, I made a mistake by posting that gif in the same post, my apologies.. I was not making the argument that he should have been punched but rather that I don't give a fuck that he was punched. I realise how I might have confused things with my OP so I took the gif out.

Quote:

I guess my position is that in a civil society we have an obligation to allow others to express any idea, no matter how bad. If one accepts violence as an answer to words, then by nature they are accepting the limitation of what can be said through intimidation. If an idea is truly incompatible with civil society the answer is not to stoop to the level of the uncivil, but to debate the idea and prove it wrong through debate and intellectually honest commentary. Violence will only make their position seem more cemented in their world view, and make people sympathetic due to the fact that they are victimized.




I respect this position, I will post something a friend said recently (in a couple of mins) and I would be interested to hear your take based on what youve said..

Quote:


If you mean "Should it be OK to fight back against people who are attacking others", the answer is simple. Shoot them in the face. If you are asking if it would be OK if we physically attack members of the Third Reich, should they mobilize again, then the answer is, certainly! But other than that, the only point is to punish someone because they are expressing an idea that is offensive.




well said.

I guess i'm trying to eek out other scenarios. Many people ARE saying its ok to punch Nazis even for talking.. That you cannot debate with them. See my next post for a bit more detail..

My position is that when they mobilise in the sense that they act on their beliefs..(but particularly with violence incorporated) the example I gave above was the Armed neo-nazi march that was originally planned in Spencer's mother's town Whitefish. There is a Jewish population there and the Nazis wanted to come to intimidate Jews and those that are ok with Jews. I think this should be utterly squashed but luckily violence was not needed, citizens' organisations in whitefish and the government had been working hard to resist this march for a while now and so far they have succeeded.


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OfflineTipote
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Re: Is violence against Nazis ok? [Re: Tipote]
    #24040551 - 01/26/17 07:25 AM (7 years, 4 days ago)

Ok this is from someone I speak to IRL:

Quote:

On punching fascists and the idea that we should instead fight Nazis through debate and dialogue:

I find these pleas that we "debate" Nazis or involve them in the "discourse" to be at best naive and at worst duplicitous. A debate or dialogue implies not just that you attempt to communicate your ideas to the other side, but that you listen earnestly to their ideas and remain open to the possibility that they could change your mind.
If these people really mean what they say when they implore us to debate Nazis or fascists, they have to admit that they're open to the idea of being convinced that Nazis are in the right. I presume that most people wouldn't go so far as to admit that, so really what they're saying is that we should fight Nazis by explaining to them our views on tolerance, equality, human rights, etc. until they agree with us.

At best that's laughably naive - the Nazis and fascists already know what your views on tolerance and kindness are, and they reject it as part of a degenerate, race-mixing, liberal culture. More importantly, though, is that the Nazis are not going to come to the debate with the same motives of liberals. What a liberal is aiming to do by inviting Nazis into the discussion is demonstrate their commitment to the values they uphold. The fascists, meanwhile, are not really interested in hearing your ideas and they are just as unopen to persuasion to your side as you are to theirs - their purpose in wanting a "discussion" about ethnic cleansing is to make their views seem like ones which are in legitimate dispute.

In that sense, it is far, far more dangerous to invite these sorts of people in for a discussion like they are simply respected members of the community. I don't personally go out and punch fascists, but I don't have an issue with people who do, and I'm sympathetic to the notion that as these people become more and more powerful, such tactics become essential. Furthermore, I certainly would put a great deal of ethical weight behind no-platforming these people and, yes, censoring and shutting them down to an enormous degree.




I welcome any thoughts


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InvisibleBodhi of Ankou
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Re: Is violence against Nazis ok? [Re: Tipote]
    #24040562 - 01/26/17 07:31 AM (7 years, 4 days ago)

This is what I think of your "anti"fascism

https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=W6bNbKN9Cw0


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OfflineTipote
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Re: Is violence against Nazis ok? [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #24040597 - 01/26/17 07:57 AM (7 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
This is what I think of your "anti"fascism

https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=W6bNbKN9Cw0




Can't you express yourself in words? I'm not sure what I'm supposed to gather from a video of 5 people in black getting taken down by police.

Considering you advocate for the murder of politicians you disagree with, I wonder why you are so defensive of Nazis. I guess on some level you are defensive about your Nazi family/beliefs but what do I know?


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Offlineqman
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Re: Is violence against Nazis ok? [Re: Tipote]
    #24040721 - 01/26/17 09:00 AM (7 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Tipote said:
I'm not ignoring anyone except for HU except if i'm desperate to laugh at how moronic he is. :lol:

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Tipote said:
The far right are on the rise, neo nazis are stronger than they have been for a long time, and muslims are the new jews in many ways. Refugee centres and mosques are under attack throughout Europe.







Where are the examples of you 'pointing out Muslims/Blacks doing the same thing to white communities.'?

So are you suggesting that the existence of racism and persecution is proof that cultural diversity has failed?

Did the holocaust also make your case, qman?




What do you call no go zones throughout the EU?  What do you call Muslim marches throughout EU cities?

You're complaining about the dysfunctional aspects of "cultural diversity" while at the same time claiming there's no problems.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Is violence against Nazis ok? [Re: Tipote]
    #24040737 - 01/26/17 09:09 AM (7 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Tipote said:
Ok this is from someone I speak to IRL:

Quote:

On punching fascists and the idea that we should instead fight Nazis through debate and dialogue:

I find these pleas that we "debate" Nazis or involve them in the "discourse" to be at best naive and at worst duplicitous. A debate or dialogue implies not just that you attempt to communicate your ideas to the other side, but that you listen earnestly to their ideas and remain open to the possibility that they could change your mind.
If these people really mean what they say when they implore us to debate Nazis or fascists, they have to admit that they're open to the idea of being convinced that Nazis are in the right. I presume that most people wouldn't go so far as to admit that, so really what they're saying is that we should fight Nazis by explaining to them our views on tolerance, equality, human rights, etc. until they agree with us.

At best that's laughably naive - the Nazis and fascists already know what your views on tolerance and kindness are, and they reject it as part of a degenerate, race-mixing, liberal culture. More importantly, though, is that the Nazis are not going to come to the debate with the same motives of liberals. What a liberal is aiming to do by inviting Nazis into the discussion is demonstrate their commitment to the values they uphold. The fascists, meanwhile, are not really interested in hearing your ideas and they are just as unopen to persuasion to your side as you are to theirs - their purpose in wanting a "discussion" about ethnic cleansing is to make their views seem like ones which are in legitimate dispute.

In that sense, it is far, far more dangerous to invite these sorts of people in for a discussion like they are simply respected members of the community. I don't personally go out and punch fascists, but I don't have an issue with people who do, and I'm sympathetic to the notion that as these people become more and more powerful, such tactics become essential. Furthermore, I certainly would put a great deal of ethical weight behind no-platforming these people and, yes, censoring and shutting them down to an enormous degree.




I welcome any thoughts




How does this person feel about Muslims and their ability to embrace liberal values?  Because they are suggesting there's no point in trying to change people completely set in their beliefs.

I have stated the same thing, Islam doesn't mix with Western culture.

In fact, there's a better chance of changing the mind of a Nazi because it's not a religious belief, trying to change the mind of someone whose family and friends also believe the same religion is almost impossible.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Is violence against Nazis ok? [Re: qman] * 2
    #24040746 - 01/26/17 09:12 AM (7 years, 4 days ago)

Lets not pretend the average Muslim is a bigger sociololitical threat than the average neo nazi..


You always take your arguments to the extreme, makes it so ridiculous to entertain your positions.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Is violence against Nazis ok? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #24040797 - 01/26/17 09:49 AM (7 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Lets not pretend the average Muslim is a bigger sociololitical threat than the average neo nazi..


You always take your arguments to the extreme, makes it so ridiculous to entertain your positions.




Would you consider living in a no go zone extreme behavior? 

Even the police don't have the balls to enter those areas, is that because of the potential threats once you go into that area?  Yes.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Is violence against Nazis ok? [Re: qman] * 1
    #24040801 - 01/26/17 09:52 AM (7 years, 4 days ago)

fuck your strawmen. The average Muslim is less dangerous than the average neo nazi. Period.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Is violence against Nazis ok? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #24040854 - 01/26/17 10:15 AM (7 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
fuck your strawmen. The average Muslim is less dangerous than the average neo nazi. Period.




Do you have anything to back that up, or does stating "Period" make that a fact?  Most people that identify as a Nazi probably did so in prison. :lol:


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Offlinesprinkles
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Re: Is violence against Nazis ok? [Re: qman]
    #24040861 - 01/26/17 10:18 AM (7 years, 4 days ago)

im pretty sure people go where they please.  especially the ones that carry guns and have radios.


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OfflineTipote
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Re: Is violence against Nazis ok? [Re: qman]
    #24040917 - 01/26/17 10:43 AM (7 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

qman said:
How does this person feel about Muslims and their ability to embrace liberal values?  Because they are suggesting there's no point in trying to change people completely set in their beliefs.




He's fine with that, he lives in London - he sees people of a foreign origin embracing liberal values left right and center.

Quote:

I have stated the same thing, Islam doesn't mix with Western culture.



Thats a huge blanket statement

Quote:

In fact, there's a better chance of changing the mind of a Nazi because it's not a religious belief, trying to change the mind of someone whose family and friends also believe the same religion is almost impossible.




there are many different kinds of religion


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