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OfflineRoostorf
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Strain isolation questions
    #24029492 - 01/22/17 12:46 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

One thing I am still confused about is how mushrooms reproduce. I know spores lead to new mycelia but are they reproducing sexually or asexually? Do spores need to come in contact with spores from nearby mushrooms the way gametes do in plants and animals to recombine new lines of DNA?  Also when is it appropriate to isolate strains and such?  If one spore germinates does it make more than one strain or is strain isolation required when a multi-spore inoculation occurs and all the spores kinda mix together and you want to separate the most rhizomorphic out of the bunch?


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OfflineMickeyFinn
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Re: Strain isolation questions [Re: Roostorf]
    #24029513 - 01/22/17 01:06 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Obviously the answer can range from very specific, scientific terms to analogies that are "sort of" correct. I'll try to aim for the middle.

Spores grow out into the organism, yes. Fungi *can* reproduce on their own, but from spore they typically need to interact with the growth from another spore to become sexually active, much like animals. Once the mycelium from the two meet, it becomes something of a sexually fertile single organism. This is an oversimplification, but it's the easiest way to say it.

If you take mycelium from a mushroom that's already undergone this process, it has everything it needs from that previous sexual exchange and can be grown into a whole new group of shrooms

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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Strain isolation questions [Re: Roostorf]
    #24029647 - 01/22/17 04:16 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Spores from the same mushroom (like a spore print) can mate and create mycelium.

Each spore is monoploid then when they mate they become diploid (ie two sets of DNA).

Thats the basics. As for strain isolation, its complicated....use the search engine to find threads on the subject.


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Re: Strain isolation questions [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #24029825 - 01/22/17 08:05 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Just to clarify, mating (sexual reproduction)requires genitalia and gametes.


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Re: Strain isolation questions [Re: Mycolorado] * 1
    #24029934 - 01/22/17 09:02 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mycolorado said:
Just to clarify, mating (sexual reproduction)requires genitalia and gametes.



No... It does not

plasmogamy, karyogamy, and meiosis. That's sexual reproduction in cubensis fungi. No genitals

Fungi that make mushrooms reproduce sexually
Fungi like yeast bud to make new cells that's asexual reproduction
Some yeast make spores and reproduce sexually as well as asexually

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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Strain isolation questions [Re: Roostorf]
    #24029951 - 01/22/17 09:10 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Roostorf said:
One thing I am still confused about is how mushrooms reproduce. I know spores lead to new mycelia but are they reproducing sexually or asexually? Do spores need to come in contact with spores from nearby mushrooms the way gametes do in plants and animals to recombine new lines of DNA?  Also when is it appropriate to isolate strains and such?  If one spore germinates does it make more than one strain or is strain isolation required when a multi-spore inoculation occurs and all the spores kinda mix together and you want to separate the most rhizomorphic out of the bunch?



Spores germinate make monokaryotic mycelium

When two monokaryotic hyphae interact successfully(compatible mating type) they will form dikaryotic mycelium

It's nearly impossible to get monokaryotic growth without lab work. A single drop of spore solution has thousands of spores. So youll always be getting dikaryotic growth

You'll actually have thousands of dikaryotic strains in a single grow
A strain is one dikaryotic mating. Theres going to be thousands of these events.

The strains all work together. Theyll fuse via anastomosis largely by the time the first flush happens. You still have all the genetics from multiple strains but this is how they work together.

Rhizomorphic means nothing. Dont look for rhizomorphic growth look for healthy growth.

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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Strain isolation questions [Re: Mycolorado]
    #24029957 - 01/22/17 09:12 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mycolorado said:
Just to clarify, mating (sexual reproduction)requires genitalia and gametes.




Does not apply to the fungi kingdom.

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Re: Strain isolation questions [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #24030031 - 01/22/17 09:44 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

I like thinking ive got loads of plates of mushroom sex porn in the back room


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Re: Strain isolation questions [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #24030247 - 01/22/17 11:14 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Sorry, you're correct in that meiosis has occurred but there are no sexual reproductive structues and no individual sexual gametes as in sperm and egg. Sperm and eggs don't germinate on their own and grow and there is no morphological difference between spores of opposing polarity.  I think you're splitting hairs due to your know-it-all-itis. 

Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
Quote:

Mycolorado said:
Just to clarify, mating (sexual reproduction)requires genitalia and gametes.




Does not apply to the fungi kingdom.




That's just argumentative.  Have you ever seen a mushroom fucking another mushroom?


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Re: Strain isolation questions [Re: Mycolorado]
    #24030345 - 01/22/17 12:04 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Not splitting hairs. Take any mycology course or by any mycology text. There's sexualized fungi and asexual. It's about how genetic information is shared more than penetration

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Re: Strain isolation questions [Re: bodhisatta]
    #24030359 - 01/22/17 12:09 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

I concede that.  Just saying it's not "mating".


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Re: Strain isolation questions [Re: Mycolorado]
    #24030378 - 01/22/17 12:15 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

I'm not the one that called it mating types

I come from working with brewers yeast. They have to be forced into sporulation in the lab. They lost their ability to mate they only really reproduce asexually used in fermentation.

So you would have to do mating studies to make new strains with new properties like alcohol tolerance or flocculation behavior.

So I would say they definitely mate and mating makes a ton of sense genetically speaking

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
they don't have sexes so much as they have mating types. Cubensis is tetrapolar, heterothalic, and bi-factorial.

this basically means that a single mushroom fruit body is able to make spores that can recombine into more mycelium and thus more fruit bodies but each individual spore requires a compatible other kind of spore to mate. the fruit body can make both types. the spores are not self fertile. you get 4 spores that are haploid out of a tetrapolar fungus. there's only two mating factors in cubensis thus 4 mating types.




S.commune has something like thousands of mating types.

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OfflineRoostorf
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Re: Strain isolation questions [Re: bodhisatta]
    #24030895 - 01/22/17 03:28 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Thanks for the info, I was thinking if i saw a few sites of growth after a streak on a petri dish each site was from an individual spore, but from what your saying each site of growth is potentially hundreds of spores?  And a spores from one single mushroom can mate with themselves? But then i would guess there is only ine set of dna unless it came into contact with spores from another muhroom of tbe same species.  Also not exactly what the threat was about but sexual repruduction can most definitely occur without 'genitalia' if your refering to the traditional sense of terms like penis and vagina, and egg and sperm even.  Plants have sex every time the wind blows or every time a pollination occurs, corals have sex by broadcast spawning.  The real purpose of sexual reproduxtion is to recombine new sets of DNA into potentially advantageous traits, i thought that was just common knowledge, not know-it-all-itis or whatever

So are we doing qhen we 'isolate" strains?  Is that extracting mycellium with the healthiest combination of dna from a multigenetic mycellium?


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Edited by Roostorf (01/22/17 03:35 PM)

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Re: Strain isolation questions [Re: Roostorf]
    #24030945 - 01/22/17 03:44 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

I've diluted spores and streaked them and still got dikaryotic growth. You have to do a few dilutions then streak and hopefully get monokaryotic growth that way.

Isolation is getting a single strain. It's largely not done because clones are tried and true and quicker. Do isolation in spare time of you really want.

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OfflineRoostorf
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Re: Strain isolation questions [Re: bodhisatta]
    #24030965 - 01/22/17 03:54 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Been a cannabis culivator for years and i can definately grasp the distinction between clones and untested seed genetics.  I also know from experiance with my plants that one set of genetics tends to work together while different sets can almost compete with eachother detrimenting yeilds, and would assume this is likely true of mushrooms as well.  I just have a really geniuine interest and wanted to play with my wild enoki and cyan sporeprints when my petri dishes come tomorrow.  I have been using small tupperware in the meantime, but i cant wait to actaully be able to see whats going on in there..
Thanks


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Edited by Roostorf (01/22/17 03:56 PM)

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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Strain isolation questions [Re: Roostorf]
    #24030986 - 01/22/17 04:05 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Clones are often made of multiple strains their performance may come from the interactions of the contained genetics.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1271/bbb.67.100
Check page 5

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
there's good strains but strains are the resultant of two spores mating. so you can have good or shit strains of any variety(what a vendor calls a strain) a variety is like GT B+ etc... so really it's up to your agar work to obtain a good strain of any of the available varieties


you might have 100s of strains in a single cake if you injected spores into it. some of the mushrooms are made of more than a few strains themselves.

Quote:

bodhisatta said:


here's some nameko fruits that are displaying some white some red and some mixed. the ones in the middle are strains mixing via a process called anastomosis. the resulting fruits are called chimeric




like these nameko mushrooms with some white some red and some mushrooms spotted as the strains both have some phenotype differences manifesting in the ones with multiple strains 



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