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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Registered: 03/14/04
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Re: Do you really believe the moon exists only when you look at it? [Re: sudly]
    #24032473 - 01/23/17 03:53 AM (7 years, 7 days ago)

the moon is too smart to have beliefs


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: Do you really believe the moon exists only when you look at it? [Re: laughingdog]
    #24032490 - 01/23/17 04:26 AM (7 years, 7 days ago)



--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Registered: 05/07/04
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Re: Do you really believe the moon exists only when you look at it? [Re: sudly]
    #24032939 - 01/23/17 10:29 AM (7 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
As far as I see is, that what made us able to 'reflect' our instincts and so, override our 'fight or flight' mechanism is the development of the neocortex.
It's not in molecules.
Maybe I can hint you to the study of 'duality' by looking at the both hemispheres of the neo cortex, before you deepen your theories of that trichotomy ('Tripartite-Dichotomy')?




Yeah, it's the neocortex and it's full of synaptic networks that utilise neurotransmitters to communicate.





Sure, but the synapses and neurotransmitters are only the on/off switches. They are only a module of the whole.
The secret lies in the construction/structure (departmentalisation) of the brain and the (inter-)connections/branchings of the nerves...

But you are right that the three major brain parts (mammal brain, reptilian brain and neocortex) play a huge role in influencing our consciousness which is primarily located in our neo-cortex. That's why I suggest you look closer at the neo-cortex, because the other two are nor so well consciously graspable, even we understand their function very well (brainstem [reptilian brain]= reflexes, autonomous functions like breathing, body temperature, ..., mammal brain[cerebellum] = fine tuning of motor activity. There are still things inbetween like the diencephalon and the mesencephalon, for example)

It is the neo-cortex where our awareness is located and all the signal try to reach our consciousness there...


Edited by BlueCoyote (01/23/17 10:37 AM)


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: Do you really believe the moon exists only when you look at it? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #24033771 - 01/23/17 05:05 PM (7 years, 7 days ago)

I don't know why I think this but the 'on/off' switch of anything seems pretty important to me.

To me the neocortex is the 'conscious mind' of ethics/ conscience/ qualia/ morality/ sentience, while the heart and gut are the subconscious/unconscious minds :imo:


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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InvisibleKurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
Re: Do you really believe the moon exists only when you look at it? [Re: sudly] * 1
    #24034337 - 01/23/17 07:35 PM (7 years, 7 days ago)

Way too associative. What you are saying is essentially a muddle; you know that right?


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InvisibleKurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
Re: Do you really believe the moon exists only when you look at it? [Re: Kurt] * 1
    #24034542 - 01/23/17 08:59 PM (7 years, 7 days ago)

You are bringing down this forum about three notches Sudly. It is offensive to the forum that you spam this pseudoscience here.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: Do you really believe the moon exists only when you look at it? [Re: Kurt]
    #24034583 - 01/23/17 09:13 PM (7 years, 7 days ago)

Please paste the pseudoscience you see.



--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Edited by sudly (01/23/17 09:23 PM)


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InvisibleKurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
Re: Do you really believe the moon exists only when you look at it? [Re: sudly]
    #24034928 - 01/24/17 12:46 AM (7 years, 7 days ago)

I am not a paste it kind of guy like you, Sudly. If you pay attention to the dialogue and argument you can see what I said fine. I just pointed out where you are essentially muddling psychology, neuroscience, and philosophy together. While these are all legitimate fields of conjecture in their own right, what you have expressed is muddle.

There is a reason for this, in your methods, and in your ways of discussing things (the conceptual language mainly) in general. I already explained this. In your cargo cult of pregiven, borrowed conceptualisms, you make a show of having concepts of the physical world, or concepts of a sense based world. You are not engaged in these discourses in a rigorous way though. Anyone can see, whether they want to sort it out or not.

The conceptual connections you make always end up being too associative, and too muddled, and are generally not connecting with reality. This is because while you make a show of having a theory of a sense based world, making a connection, you are just rationalizing and projecting and associating concepts, and not finding the empirical sense based connection with the world. What you say is mostly nonsense.

It is not a surprise you describe a mirror as a metaphor of sense experience. While you pretend you engage in a correspondence of things, you are only being narcissistic and self referential. You are missing where the sense goes beyond its given data set. That is where you are pseudo-empirical.

Your opposition to fair criticism is also fair to point out, as pseudo-scientific, if you are asking me. Consider your topic title. Nobody here denied physical existence as far as I can see. Let me tell you what I think. I think you reacted to criticism the forum gave you and created a strawman. You ask "Do you really believe the moon exists only when you look at it?" But who said or implied this? You are attacking straw positions. At any rate nobody who criticized you before said this.

What I find somewhat dishonest, is that you seem to go out of the way to contrive misrepresentation of the empiricist position in your rhetoric. You create a strawman to attack, in a subjective idealist. You want to suggest to everyone that people who have said you need to begin with a baseline experience can only be  wrong, as subjective idealists when really what was suggested is you are not empirical enough. You only maintain a semblance and pretense of a sense based, natural philosophy, in metaphysical assumptions, which you are mainly rationalizing.

Anyway, I think you can learn to follow argument. Sorry to be quite critical, but the criticism should be made.


Edited by Kurt (01/24/17 01:17 AM)


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InvisibleKurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
Re: Do you really believe the moon exists only when you look at it? [Re: Kurt]
    #24034964 - 01/24/17 01:07 AM (7 years, 7 days ago)

By the way... Stephen Fry can go fuck himself. :laugh:


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: Do you really believe the moon exists only when you look at it? [Re: Kurt]
    #24034975 - 01/24/17 01:18 AM (7 years, 7 days ago)

Read/paste/explain/discuss.. 
It's a good way of getting information across :imo:

So again you say I'm planning a trap of sorts with you cargo cult idea, but I'm not trying to change you or anyone else, I only want to express some opinions that I value, at least that's what I've been trying to do lately.

Quote:

Kurt said: "It is not a surprise you describe a mirror as a metaphor of sense experience. While you pretend you engage in a correspondence of things, you are only being narcissistic and self referential. You are missing where the sense goes beyond its given data set. That is where you are pseudo-empirical."




Quote:

'If you look into a mirror you will never see your eyes look away from you.'



I'm not trying to pretend to be anything I'm not, I don't know everything and I'm not perfect, it's just an observation that you can't see your pupils if you are not focused on your eyes when looking at a mirror.

The criticisms I receive from some members of this forum are in my opinion often not overly constructive as they don't come with ideas or attempts to refute the anatomical associations I've described.

The title of this post is in relation to the Copenhagen interpretation of the double-slit experiment that suggests a particle can exist as both a wave and a particle. The moon quote was in hopes of providing a different perspective for looking at the experiment.

I don't think there are metaphysical assumptions when discussing the anatomy of the human nervous system.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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InvisibleKurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
Re: Do you really believe the moon exists only when you look at it? [Re: sudly]
    #24035071 - 01/24/17 03:12 AM (7 years, 6 days ago)

How can you claim to want to express an opinion without wanting to change people's opinions?

I don't think that philosophy, psychology and neuroscience relate in the ways you suppose. You are taking the terms of one discourse (one paradigm and conceptual language, and circle of discussion) and associating it broadly with another in a way that doesn't make sense. It comes through your conceptual language which you never break down well enough.

This seems like confusion to me:

Quote:

To me the neocortex is the 'conscious mind' of ethics/ conscience/ qualia/ morality/ sentience, while the heart and gut are the subconscious/unconscious minds




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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: Do you really believe the moon exists only when you look at it? [Re: Kurt]
    #24035082 - 01/24/17 03:32 AM (7 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

ethics/ conscience/ qualia/ morality/ sentience




I just don't see the difference between the meanings of these words. I think they are the tendencies we as humans have to decide between what we think is good and what we think is bad. 

Quote:

Although sensory perception and neurobiology are traditionally investigated one modality at a time, real world behaviour and perception are driven by the integration of information from multiple sensory sources. Mounting evidence suggests that the neural underpinnings of multisensory integration extend into early sensory processing. This article examines the notion that neocortical operations are essentially multisensory.

We first review what is known about multisensory processing in higher-order association cortices and then discuss recent anatomical and physiological findings in presumptive unimodal sensory areas. The pervasiveness of multisensory influences on all levels of cortical processing compels us to reconsider thinking about neural processing in unisensory terms. Indeed, the multisensory nature of most, possibly all, of the neocortex forces us to abandon the notion that the senses ever operate independently during real-world cognition.

Consclusion:
The integration of information from different sensory systems is a fundamental characteristic of perception and cognition – qualitatively different kinds of information from the various sense organs are put together in the brain to produce a unified, coherent representation of the outside world. Traditionally, it has been assumed that the integration of such disparate information at the cortical level was the task of specialized, higher-order association areas of the neocortex. In stark contrast to this assumption, the neurobiological data reviewed here suggest that much, if not all, of neocortex is multisensory. This necessarily forces us to reconsider the validity of probing the brain unimodally and suggests a different perspective when considering other aspects of cognition – from cognitive development to social cognition.

http://www.lemanic-neuroscience.ch/PENSTrainingCenter/articles/Ghazanfar_Schroeder-2006-TICS.pdf




We do have 8 senses and I think our brain uses them all to be able to process our experiences into perceptions.
  • Sight
  • Taste
  • Touch
  • Smell
  • Sound
  • Vestibular (balance)
  • Proprioception (bodies location in space)
  • Stereognosis/Interoception (visualising 3D objects without sight)


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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InvisibleKurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
Re: Do you really believe the moon exists only when you look at it? [Re: sudly]
    #24035930 - 01/24/17 12:30 PM (7 years, 6 days ago)

Those are different words with different meanings. You can maybe use them somewhat interchangibly in some contexts, but in others it does not work.

Qualia as a particular instance in a field of perception, like of the color red, or the feeling of pleasure or pain; and a discussion about the quality of perceptions, is not the same thing as a conscience.

Conscience, as the psychological consideration of what is right and wrong, is not the same as moral values of people.

Morality, as a given instruction or rule of what is right or wrong is not the same as ethics, the way a person practically thinks ans acts in a situation.

Sentience, the capacity of anyone or any living thing to perceive and feel, is not morality or ethic, even if sentient beings are a moral and ethical concern to us.

I can describe a chain of relationships to some extent, but each link is clearly different than the next in this sense, not the same.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: Do you really believe the moon exists only when you look at it? [Re: Kurt]
    #24036869 - 01/24/17 06:20 PM (7 years, 6 days ago)

In my view they are all the capacity to perceive good and bad.

Qualia is a property of being able to perceive an experience, conscience is a persons moral sense of right and wrong, morality is a principle that discerns between right and wrong or good and bad behaviour, ethics are moral principles and sentience is the capacity for an individual to perceive the difference between what they think is good and what they think is bad, or in other words their ability to distinguish between what they think and what they feel. :imo:



--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Edited by sudly (01/24/17 06:42 PM)


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InvisibleKurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
Re: Do you really believe the moon exists only when you look at it? [Re: sudly]
    #24036967 - 01/24/17 06:53 PM (7 years, 6 days ago)

If you were right, why would you have so many words to signify the same thing?

...To each, their own.


Edited by Kurt (01/24/17 06:58 PM)


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: Do you really believe the moon exists only when you look at it? [Re: Kurt]
    #24036979 - 01/24/17 06:58 PM (7 years, 6 days ago)

'ethics/ conscience/ qualia/ morality/ sentience'

I think those words are synonymous in that they mean the same thing, perhaps each as one of many cultural interpretations, diversified by linguistic differences, but all attempting to explain the same thing.

Quote:

Language is malleable. We change the way we use words all the time.




--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Edited by sudly (01/24/17 07:11 PM)


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InvisibleKurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
Re: Do you really believe the moon exists only when you look at it? [Re: sudly]
    #24036996 - 01/24/17 07:03 PM (7 years, 6 days ago)

Yeah, I didn't say that though.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: Do you really believe the moon exists only when you look at it? [Re: Kurt]
    #24037005 - 01/24/17 07:09 PM (7 years, 6 days ago)

That's what I'm saying..
I don't want to change you though, that's just my view.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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InvisibleKurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
Re: Do you really believe the moon exists only when you look at it? [Re: sudly]
    #24037054 - 01/24/17 07:26 PM (7 years, 6 days ago)

Okay I see that after the edit.

What you are saying seems off to me Sudly. I disagree with the statement. How can you take such a loose view of representation when you have an objectivist, moralistic point?

You throw around that just an opinion sign, but you seem to me to have a militant attitude in what you actually say.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: Do you really believe the moon exists only when you look at it? [Re: Kurt]
    #24037140 - 01/24/17 08:09 PM (7 years, 6 days ago)

I prefer to rely on what I perceive as knowledge or theoretical fact rather than to try and rely on faith or gut feelings.

I think it's because I perceive my own experience as a duality of explicit tendencies and implicit relations.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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