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Invisible404
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Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up.
    #24027576 - 01/21/17 08:41 AM (7 years, 9 days ago)

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free" -Goethe


You think you are free to make any decision? Nope. We are living in a massive mathematical equation, and all your choices are based on inputs you've gained, that is information you've received and information you have stored. Given the same exact input/situation, you will make the same decision exactly the same, so your life is fairly already laid out in front of you, you just don't know how it plays out yet.

Free will doesn't exist. Try to Enjoy your time here, though.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: 404]
    #24027596 - 01/21/17 08:47 AM (7 years, 9 days ago)

Straight Up.



--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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Offlinebeforethedawn
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #24027653 - 01/21/17 09:14 AM (7 years, 9 days ago)

There is nothing but freedom. There is no universe.

:sunny:

None of this is actually happening. It is just the Self.

The Self is not appearing as 'this or that', the world is not an illusion . . .

There is just the Self.

If you want to say it is appearing as this or that, that the world is illusory, so be it, if it helps you, for now.

You can choose suffering, but you cannot choose God.
God generally chooses you with grace when he thinks you are deserving of coming home.
But it is just Yourself. You never left.

All your task is is to remove doubt that this is not your present experience.
It is only your commitment to illusions that keeps you in doubt.
If you would just accept that Self is the ultimate life you would take a great leap forward . . .

Self-realization is your greatest contribution to life possible, but it is not "yours" to give.
You cannot 'hold' the Self. Thinking your efforts are holding the Self fast is just self-deception.

Self is essentially a frequency. You can tune to it, or you can tune to suffering. There is either Self, or there is illusion, and not necessarily bad illusion.

You alone exist.
Something that you are cannot be lost, therefore there is no way to find it.
Something that you are cannot be other than itself, therefore there is no prospect of knowing anything other than it.
There can't be choices.
There can't be mistakes or gains.

At the end of the day, you just need to recognize the most simple fact of your existence.


--------------------
Hostile humankind
Can't you see you're fucking blind?


Edited by beforethedawn (01/21/17 09:33 AM)


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: 404]
    #24027661 - 01/21/17 09:19 AM (7 years, 9 days ago)

I would just like to point out that the Goethe quote does not necessarily refer to free will.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisible404
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #24027678 - 01/21/17 09:28 AM (7 years, 9 days ago)

Yeah, but... it's still relevant. To be free iherently means to also have freedom of choice, and i'm arguing that there isn't.



@beforethedawn - suffering is a fundamental part of existence, and is a relative concept, everyone will experience it differently, and deal with it differently. Suffering is also not a permanent state of existence.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: 404]
    #24027699 - 01/21/17 09:36 AM (7 years, 9 days ago)

I don't know about freedom of "choice," but I feel consciousness has causal efficacy. Modern science agrees.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: 404]
    #24027704 - 01/21/17 09:37 AM (7 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

404 said:
Suffering is also not a permanent state of existence.




Definitely agree.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisible404
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #24027734 - 01/21/17 09:47 AM (7 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I don't know about freedom of "choice," but I feel consciousness has causal efficacy. Modern science agrees.





I am not sure what you mean by this, and thus how it clashes with anything i have said


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: 404]
    #24027757 - 01/21/17 09:57 AM (7 years, 9 days ago)

I feel that our consciousness can affect our minds and bodies in nontrivial ways, and that we can shape the world around us to some extent. I don't think we're robots, not completely anyway. I believe in a will, but one that is not very free. But not entirely automatic.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisible404
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #24027836 - 01/21/17 10:39 AM (7 years, 9 days ago)

I'm not saying that's not possible though, our views on things don't clash at all if that's what you mean. however, the latter part, i feel we are organic robots capable of abstract thoughts, emotions and other things you wouldn't consider a 'robot' to have. Our consciousnes can and will likely be simulated to it's entirety in the future as androids are developed to achieve such a feat and become more and more complex.


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InvisibleAmanita86
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: 404]
    #24028046 - 01/21/17 11:48 AM (7 years, 9 days ago)

Humans are animals.  Think of a 'lesser' animal's behavior.  Each member of a specific species makes it's own decisions and experiences it's own emotions but as a whole they all follow similar patterns and can be grouped together etc. and their behavior can be predicted.  Humans are no different.

It's just harder for some people to see that in humans because we're all still running and stuck in the human programming.  AKA, you can't see the forest for the trees..


--------------------
:mushroom2:Orange clock, pencil:bouncysmoke:
"They threw me off the hay truck about noon...":fishing:
:mushroom2:*Mark 15:34:levitate::mushroom2::blueninja:
Gam zeh ya’avor...:sunny:


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: 404]
    #24028069 - 01/21/17 12:02 PM (7 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

404 said:
I'm not saying that's not possible though, our views on things don't clash at all if that's what you mean. however, the latter part, i feel we are organic robots capable of abstract thoughts, emotions and other things you wouldn't consider a 'robot' to have. Our consciousnes can and will likely be simulated to it's entirety in the future as androids are developed to achieve such a feat and become more and more complex.




Yeah, we (virtually everyone) certainly behave robotically almost all the time. But I think at bottom, as we are conscious entities who exhibit emotion and thought, we're a lot different than any machine or computer that's ever been devised. It's very Cartesian to think that way, so I tend to avoid it.

I too believe that technology can and will in the future (probably within thirty to forty years) create intelligent cyber-entities that will be conscious, and can process information (i.e. think) prodigiously. They will outperform us at any task. I don't think they will be bottom-up entities, though; I think they will be top-down, tuning into the wider consciousness, just as humans do, and that this is perfectly feasible. I don't see why, if human brains can harvest consciousness, a highly advanced technology cannot. However, I am different than most people in that I do not think we will re-create consciousness, but rather utilize the nonlocal field that is already there, and by which we operate.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: Amanita86]
    #24028077 - 01/21/17 12:06 PM (7 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

Amanita86 said:
Humans are animals.  Think of a 'lesser' animal's behavior.  Each member of a specific species makes it's own decisions and experiences it's own emotions but as a whole they all follow similar patterns and can be grouped together etc. and their behavior can be predicted.  Humans are no different.

It's just harder for some people to see that in humans because we're all still running and stuck in the human programming.  AKA, you can't see the forest for the trees..





I agree completely that sociobiology plays a huge role in species from humans to ants to elephants to fish. I do think we can become freed of these imperatives, however, based on certain ways of living. For example, I highly doubt that a Tibetan monk worth his salt is governed exclusively by genetic, sociobiological drives. The whole point of such philosophies is to cultivate awareness of, and freedom from, such programming. So I feel the picture is very complicated.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisiblePatrickKn
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #24028252 - 01/21/17 01:46 PM (7 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
For example, I highly doubt that a Tibetan monk worth his salt is governed exclusively by genetic, sociobiological drives.




Perhaps not, but a Tibetan monk is governed exclusively by cause and effect the might guide his thoughts, actions and circumstance, no?


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: PatrickKn]
    #24028305 - 01/21/17 02:05 PM (7 years, 9 days ago)

Not if you believe cause and effect do not constitute the most fundamental level. Quantum mechanics, for example, is acausal. So is synchronicity.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleAmanita86
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #24028314 - 01/21/17 02:10 PM (7 years, 9 days ago)

If I read what you're saying right I think that's what sets us apart from other animals.  We can 'commune with God' and have an ability to see outside the box in ways other animals can't, even though I think things like dolphins and elephants etc come pretty close.  When you get one of those random glimpses where you step outside of yourself and can see humans from a different perspective all together there's something there that is pretty unique and not 'there' in other animals.


--------------------
:mushroom2:Orange clock, pencil:bouncysmoke:
"They threw me off the hay truck about noon...":fishing:
:mushroom2:*Mark 15:34:levitate::mushroom2::blueninja:
Gam zeh ya’avor...:sunny:


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InvisiblePatrickKn
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #24028332 - 01/21/17 02:19 PM (7 years, 9 days ago)

Acausality, to me, seems to explain that causality cannot be explained from only a macroscopic world view. That the underlying mechanisms for synchronistic events are difficult to grasp - but are more connected than just random chance. And I'd agree with that.

That doesn't necessarily establish nor refute the concepts of free will. Jung himself seemed to believe that free will only existed as a construct of the mind.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: Amanita86]
    #24028489 - 01/21/17 03:39 PM (7 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

Amanita86 said:
If I read what you're saying right I think that's what sets us apart from other animals.  We can 'commune with God' and have an ability to see outside the box in ways other animals can't, even though I think things like dolphins and elephants etc come pretty close.  When you get one of those random glimpses where you step outside of yourself and can see humans from a different perspective all together there's something there that is pretty unique and not 'there' in other animals.





Yes, that's quite possibly so. On the other hand, I think there is a type of awareness that we once had that we lost -- when we stopped moving and built cities -- that animals probably possess. That's only speculation, but it makes sense to me. It's that sort of extra something that we observe with Native Americans, or the Bushmen. I can't demonstrate it logically, of course.

But yes, what you have described makes a lot of sense.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: PatrickKn]
    #24028501 - 01/21/17 03:44 PM (7 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

PatrickKn said:
Acausality, to me, seems to explain that causality cannot be explained from only a macroscopic world view. That the underlying mechanisms for synchronistic events are difficult to grasp - but are more connected than just random chance. And I'd agree with that.

That doesn't necessarily establish nor refute the concepts of free will. Jung himself seemed to believe that free will only existed as a construct of the mind.





I really see no conceptual flaw in your post. It is an assumption of mine that the connections at that fundamental level may have something to do with consciousness, and the effects of consciousness with a will that may be partially free. I personally posit a will that can act, but is constrained in a myriad of ways, not the least of which is our physical natures. So while I believe there is a will that has a certain latitude to operate, for practical purposes I see it as not very free.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Offlinegraceful dragon
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: PatrickKn]
    #24028525 - 01/21/17 03:56 PM (7 years, 9 days ago)

Done as journal - just a (journal entry)

partly because it got rather long,


and partly i am not really wishing to debate, which.. well yeah. but, just wanted to mention here and put a link,

just to present or share;

so basically, i am going from the ontological basis that self and universe are the same,


and since self and other, self and universe are same -

it is silly to ask whether freedom of choice exists, because


you are asking if the universe has freedom -- when freedom is an infinitesimal aspect of all that it is.

to say that it got a bit long isn't quite an understatement; i'd estimate 2,000 words or so.


hard to say because it doesn't give a count, or so far as i've seen.

..partof that was a direct quote..
..anyway everyone thx and have a great day.
:heartpump::earth::1up::grin::sunny::bandana::happyheart::heartpump::bandana::peace::earth::1up::peace::hug::happyheart::heartpump::heartpump::sun:


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: graceful dragon]
    #24028543 - 01/21/17 04:04 PM (7 years, 9 days ago)

Yes, I agree that in any case, the human will is just one level, a fairly insignificant one, and that existence goes well beyond it and probably goes on forever.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Offlinegraceful dragon
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: graceful dragon] * 1
    #24028546 - 01/21/17 04:05 PM (7 years, 9 days ago)

-- i ended up writing a little more, after all. --

i.e.,

we say that each thing of the universe is the same as the source,

or each is reflecting every other.


this is seen from the holographic representation of reality as well as the Indra Net description of reality, and nature, from the Avatamsaka, or Great Flower Ornament Sutra,


so each atom or molecule, of matter, each photon, is reflecting the whole; -

and being true to holographic nature, each part, particle or photon contains the information of the whole --


as the division of any amount of a holograph of a rose ( half, contains all the info; therefore, half of half contains it as well ),

contains the same, full, information.

or to use words and linguistic thought rather than physics --  the universe has freedom because freedom is an infinitesimal part of what it is.

the universe is greater than freedom;


again, this perspective is dependant on the non-dual view: that self is the same as other, that the individual is one with the universe.


such a perspective forever wins out to me, logically etc., - and it has experience of illimitable variety to back it up::


ok.

:heartpump::earth::1up::grin::sunny::bandana::happyheart::heartpump::bandana::peace::earth::1up::peace::hug::happyheart::heartpump::heartpump::sun:


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Offlinegraceful dragon
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #24028554 - 01/21/17 04:08 PM (7 years, 9 days ago)

(true, yes, agreed, as most always)

How much is human separate from all existence -

the birds, the chipmunks, the air, the trees, the house -

in a word, the environment, the world, the universe, etc -

related, the expression Watts gave - organism/environment.



(cont. the thought above - in relating to that -- all perspectives are true, a gloomy one is "subjectively" true,

an optimistic one is also true as well, and so forth -- and those might seem, qualitative descriptions only,


but the same basic principles can be extended, grown, and such to become a distinction of -

say, depressed, vs., successful - etc., so once again we see how inner states, - and subtle states -

relate to the external results and outward world,  and how small things or details relate to larger phenomena.)


(and yeah, those second sentences took less than 2 minutes,..

okay, hehe. ..



have a beautiful night/day.)


beautiful beautiful beautiful beautiful
beautiful beautiful beautiful beautiful
beautiful beautiful beautiful beautiful


hehe



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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: graceful dragon]
    #24028582 - 01/21/17 04:19 PM (7 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

graceful dragon said:
-- i ended up writing a little more, after all. --

i.e.,

we say that each thing of the universe is the same as the source,

or each is reflecting every other.


this is seen from the holographic representation of reality as well as the Indra Net description of reality, and nature, from the Avatamsaka, or Great Flower Ornament Sutra,


so each atom or molecule, of matter, each photon, is reflecting the whole; -

and being true to holographic nature, each part, particle or photon contains the information of the whole --


as the division of any amount of a holograph of a rose ( half, contains all the info; therefore, half of half contains it as well ),

contains the same, full, information.

or to use words and linguistic thought rather than physics --  the universe has freedom because freedom is an infinitesimal part of what it is.

the universe is greater than freedom;


again, this perspective is dependant on the non-dual view: that self is the same as other, that the individual is one with the universe.


such a perspective forever wins out to me, logically etc., - and it has experience of illimitable variety to back it up::


ok.

:heartpump::earth::1up::grin::sunny::bandana::happyheart::heartpump::bandana::peace::earth::1up::peace::hug::happyheart::heartpump::heartpump::sun:





Absolutely. :thumbup:


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Offlinenothing exists
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #24028586 - 01/21/17 04:21 PM (7 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

Amanita86 said:
If I read what you're saying right I think that's what sets us apart from other animals.  We can 'commune with God' and have an ability to see outside the box in ways other animals can't, even though I think things like dolphins and elephants etc come pretty close.  When you get one of those random glimpses where you step outside of yourself and can see humans from a different perspective all together there's something there that is pretty unique and not 'there' in other animals.





Yes, that's quite possibly so. On the other hand, I think there is a type of awareness that we once had that we lost -- when we stopped moving and built cities -- that animals probably possess. That's only speculation, but it makes sense to me. It's that sort of extra something that we observe with Native Americans, or the Bushmen. I can't demonstrate it logically, of course.

But yes, what you have described makes a lot of sense.



the poison of 'good and evil'


freedom is the ability to do the wrong thing

if you need further illustration

google 'triclosan'

and behold the future of earth


--------------------
i like you...


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: nothing exists]
    #24028617 - 01/21/17 04:33 PM (7 years, 9 days ago)

My comments have nothing to do with good and evil. Good and bad, maybe.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #24028698 - 01/21/17 05:14 PM (7 years, 9 days ago)

I don't think it's part of the Universe's plan or God's plan or whatever's plan to kill yourself. At the end of the day you can still blow the back of your skull out with a 45.

We have Free Will, we most definitely do. Doesn't mean it's all it's cracked up to be. You could use your Free Will to be a serial rapist or murderer. Heck, you're already a massive piece of shit (not YOU just hypothetically this person,) why not both? Could use it to abduct children and kill them too. Happens every day. 

I believe in Free Will and Determinism. If the Universe were nothing calculated clockwork we would be automatons. We aren't. We have imaginations and we can think for ourselves. On the other hand if there were nothing but Free Will the Universe would be total chaos. No parables or apexes in our "graph" of choices, just random, nonsensical choices that made no sense and had zero affect on the Universe because everyone would be making decisions with no sense of responsibility.


--------------------
"I found it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay… small acts of kindness and love.” - Gandalf The Grey.

"It is the mark of an educated mind to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle

"I like to think of Jesus like with giant eagle's wings, and singin' lead vocals for Lynyrd Skynyrd with like an angel band and I'm in the front row and I'm HAMMERED DRUNK!" - Cal Naughton Jr. AKA The Magic Man. Abracadabra homes!

"Each tear is a drop of poison released." - Anonymous

"Could it be you're afraid of what your friends might say if they knew you believe in God above? They should realize before they criticize that God is the only way to Love."


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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: LRG] * 1
    #24029861 - 01/22/17 08:28 AM (7 years, 8 days ago)

i thnk there is free will.
depends who you are and what ur belivs.
u can choose go with the darkness or the light.
in the end u will see that ur daily life is an judgment for the other side..
you will go to darkness where is hell happens(not sure u will be tourtored or what ever) but its defently not the good side.
or by your choises you will go to heaven. place of the light and good.
fact if u are and indigo or psychic and you are in this planet. its becouse hell was shitty place and you got another chance.
(or u wasnt good enogh to be on heven for ever).
or u were in heaven but you felt. couse of reasons.
that is the free will. be good or be bad. basicly


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OfflineHalayudha
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: mitmitice1]
    #24030015 - 01/22/17 09:34 AM (7 years, 8 days ago)

A bit either/or - it brought to mind Sartre,... was thinking - did he write a play called, "Either/Or"?  and I searched, the play was called, "No Exit," before I got to that though, there was this one: 'We will freedom for freedom’s sake, in and through particular circumstances. And in thus willing freedom, we discover that it depends entirely upon the freedom of others and that the freedom of others depends upon our own.' (J-P. Sartre), a similar thought is also eloquently expressed in my favorite poem, Ad Olum, by S.- (Call me not rebel, though { here at every word
                          {in what I sing
If I no longer hail thee  { King and Lord
                          { Lord and King)
'Set free thy slave, thou settest free thyself.'

A couple other nice ones there.. (by the former)

'I construct my memories with my present.'

'The real nature of the present revealed itself: it was what exists, all that was not present did not exist.'

'...painful secret of gods and kings is that men are free, Aegistheus. You know it and they do not.'

Man is condemned to be free; because once thrown into the world, he is responsible for everything he does.

Life has no meaning a priori … It is up to you to give it a meaning, and value is nothing but the meaning that you choose.

J-P. Sartre


--------------------
Call me not rebel, though { here at every word
                          {in what I sing
If I no longer hail thee  { King and Lord
                          { Lord and King


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Invisible404
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: LRG]
    #24030065 - 01/22/17 09:58 AM (7 years, 8 days ago)

Funny you mention automatons. So did Tesla and descartes i learned

Quote:


This realistic aspect of the perceptible universe, as a clockwork wound up and running down, dispensing with the necessity of a hypermechanical vital principle, need not be in discord with our religious and artistic aspirations -- those undefinable and beautiful efforts through which the human mind endeavors to free itself from material bonds. On the contrary, the better understanding of nature, the consciousness that our knowledge is true, can only be all the more elevating and inspiring.

It was Descartes, the great French philosopher, who in the seventeenth century, laid the first foundation to the mechanistic theory of life, not a little assisted by Harvey's epochal discovery of blood circulation. He held that animals were simply automata without consciousness and recognized that man, though possessed of a higher and distinctive quality, is incapable of action other than those characteristic of a machine. He also made the first attempt to explain the physical mechanism of memory. But in this time many functions of the human body were not as yet understood, and in this respect some of his assumptions were erroneous.

Great strides have since been made in the art of anatomy, physiology and all branches of science, and the workings of the man-machine are now perfectly clear. Yet the very fewest among us are able to trace their actions to primary external causes. lt is indispensable to the arguments I shall advance to keep in mind the main facts which I have myself established in years of close reasoning and observation and which may be summed up as follows:

1. The human being is a self-propelled automaton entirely under the control of external influences. Willful and predetermined though they appear, his actions are governed not from within, but from without. He is like a float tossed about by the waves of a turbulent sea.

2. There is no memory or retentive faculty based on lasting impression. What we designate as memory is but increased responsiveness to repeated stimuli.

3. It is not true, as Descartes taught, that the brain is an accumulator. There is no permanent record in the brain, there is no stored knowledge. Knowledge is something akin to an echo that needs a disturbance to be called into being.

4. All knowledge or form conception is evoked through the medium of the eye, either in response to disturbances directly received on the retina or to their fainter secondary effects and reverberations. Other sense organs can only call forth feelings which have no reality of existence and of which no conception can be formed.

5. Contrary to the most important tenet of Cartesian philosophy that the perceptions of the mind are illusionary, the eye transmits to it the true and accurate likeness of external things. This is because light propagates in straight lines and the image cast on the retina is an exact reproduction of the external form and one which, owing to the mechanism of the optic nerve, can not be distorted in the transmission to the brain. What is more, the process must be reversible, that in to say, a form brought to consciousness can, by reflex action, reproduce the original image on the retina just as an echo can reproduce the original disturbance If this view is borne out by experiment an immense revolution in all human relations and departments of activity will be the consequence.





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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: graceful dragon]
    #24030646 - 01/22/17 02:01 PM (7 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

[...]again, this perspective is dependant on the non-dual view: that self is the same as other, that the individual is one with the universe.[...]



'Universe is me and me is universe' ... all nice and fine.
Now ask yourself what is this your 'self' that is not around your influenceable space in universe (yet)...
:fairy:


Edited by BlueCoyote (01/22/17 02:06 PM)


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #24032431 - 01/23/17 03:04 AM (7 years, 7 days ago)

to have free will
you first have to posit a stable, unified, lasting, self
and dreams
and much psychology and many lab experiments
throw much cold water on this notion

Relativity shows common sense to be bogus
but when it comes to believing we are 'our' personalities the feeling is so strong
most ignore the evidence

and without a consistent, autonomous, self, the idea of free will is sort of silly
also free will would make all selves separate from the rest of the universe
and violate causality
also what happens when two free wills are in conflict?

it is basicaly a dualistic idea, and as such simply too simplistic, just like the idea of a self


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Offlinegraceful dragon
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: laughingdog]
    #24032733 - 01/23/17 08:51 AM (7 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Quote:

[...]again, this perspective is dependant on the non-dual view: that self is the same as other, that the individual is one with the universe.[...]



'Universe is me and me is universe' ... all nice and fine.
Now ask yourself what is this your 'self' that is not around your influenceable space in universe (yet)...
:fairy:




Hello - BC and laughing...

limited/unlimited

bound/free

finite/infinite

etc.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: graceful dragon]
    #24033059 - 01/23/17 11:43 AM (7 years, 7 days ago)

I mean...if you give some kid a ball... he might be lucky or unlucky and play with the ball and become a footballstar, lol
So what separates you from the universe is the change you make...
:jointsmile:


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: 404] * 1
    #24033068 - 01/23/17 11:50 AM (7 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

404 said:
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free" -Goethe






Free Will and Freedom are two completely different things.  Even in complete slavery under an absolute tyrant, free will exists.  One can choose to not cooperate and accept the consequences.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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Offlinegraceful dragon
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: KauaiOrca] * 1
    #24033087 - 01/23/17 12:08 PM (7 years, 7 days ago)

:sun:

or also,

'I have noticed that even those who assert that everything is predestined and that we can change nothing about it still look both ways before they cross the street.'

~Hawking


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: graceful dragon]
    #24033135 - 01/23/17 12:33 PM (7 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

graceful dragon said:
:sun:

or also,

'I have noticed that even those who assert that everything is predestined and that we can change nothing about it still look both ways before they cross the street.'

~Hawking




Or .. While we can't choose our parents, we can certainly choose what kind of parents we decide to be and how many, if any, children we decide to have.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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