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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Yes, I agree that in any case, the human will is just one level, a fairly insignificant one, and that existence goes well beyond it and probably goes on forever.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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graceful dragon
omni-love



Registered: 04/20/15
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-- i ended up writing a little more, after all. --
i.e.,
we say that each thing of the universe is the same as the source,
or each is reflecting every other.
this is seen from the holographic representation of reality as well as the Indra Net description of reality, and nature, from the Avatamsaka, or Great Flower Ornament Sutra,
so each atom or molecule, of matter, each photon, is reflecting the whole; -
and being true to holographic nature, each part, particle or photon contains the information of the whole --
as the division of any amount of a holograph of a rose ( half, contains all the info; therefore, half of half contains it as well ),
contains the same, full, information.
or to use words and linguistic thought rather than physics -- the universe has freedom because freedom is an infinitesimal part of what it is.
the universe is greater than freedom;
again, this perspective is dependant on the non-dual view: that self is the same as other, that the individual is one with the universe.
such a perspective forever wins out to me, logically etc., - and it has experience of illimitable variety to back it up::
ok.
                
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graceful dragon
omni-love



Registered: 04/20/15
Posts: 460
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Last seen: 6 years, 5 months
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(true, yes, agreed, as most always)
How much is human separate from all existence -
the birds, the chipmunks, the air, the trees, the house -
in a word, the environment, the world, the universe, etc -
related, the expression Watts gave - organism/environment.
(cont. the thought above - in relating to that -- all perspectives are true, a gloomy one is "subjectively" true,
an optimistic one is also true as well, and so forth -- and those might seem, qualitative descriptions only,
but the same basic principles can be extended, grown, and such to become a distinction of -
say, depressed, vs., successful - etc., so once again we see how inner states, - and subtle states -
relate to the external results and outward world, and how small things or details relate to larger phenomena.)
(and yeah, those second sentences took less than 2 minutes,..
okay, hehe. ..
have a beautiful night/day.)
beautiful beautiful beautiful beautiful beautiful beautiful beautiful beautiful beautiful beautiful beautiful beautiful
hehe
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Quote:
graceful dragon said: -- i ended up writing a little more, after all. --
i.e.,
we say that each thing of the universe is the same as the source,
or each is reflecting every other.
this is seen from the holographic representation of reality as well as the Indra Net description of reality, and nature, from the Avatamsaka, or Great Flower Ornament Sutra,
so each atom or molecule, of matter, each photon, is reflecting the whole; -
and being true to holographic nature, each part, particle or photon contains the information of the whole --
as the division of any amount of a holograph of a rose ( half, contains all the info; therefore, half of half contains it as well ),
contains the same, full, information.
or to use words and linguistic thought rather than physics -- the universe has freedom because freedom is an infinitesimal part of what it is.
the universe is greater than freedom;
again, this perspective is dependant on the non-dual view: that self is the same as other, that the individual is one with the universe.
such a perspective forever wins out to me, logically etc., - and it has experience of illimitable variety to back it up::
ok.
                 
Absolutely.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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nothing exists
master of fire

Registered: 12/15/10
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said:
Quote:
Amanita86 said: If I read what you're saying right I think that's what sets us apart from other animals. We can 'commune with God' and have an ability to see outside the box in ways other animals can't, even though I think things like dolphins and elephants etc come pretty close. When you get one of those random glimpses where you step outside of yourself and can see humans from a different perspective all together there's something there that is pretty unique and not 'there' in other animals.
Yes, that's quite possibly so. On the other hand, I think there is a type of awareness that we once had that we lost -- when we stopped moving and built cities -- that animals probably possess. That's only speculation, but it makes sense to me. It's that sort of extra something that we observe with Native Americans, or the Bushmen. I can't demonstrate it logically, of course.
But yes, what you have described makes a lot of sense.
the poison of 'good and evil'
freedom is the ability to do the wrong thing
if you need further illustration
google 'triclosan'
and behold the future of earth
-------------------- i like you...
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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My comments have nothing to do with good and evil. Good and bad, maybe.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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LRG
Supernaut

Registered: 04/04/16
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I don't think it's part of the Universe's plan or God's plan or whatever's plan to kill yourself. At the end of the day you can still blow the back of your skull out with a 45.
We have Free Will, we most definitely do. Doesn't mean it's all it's cracked up to be. You could use your Free Will to be a serial rapist or murderer. Heck, you're already a massive piece of shit (not YOU just hypothetically this person,) why not both? Could use it to abduct children and kill them too. Happens every day.
I believe in Free Will and Determinism. If the Universe were nothing calculated clockwork we would be automatons. We aren't. We have imaginations and we can think for ourselves. On the other hand if there were nothing but Free Will the Universe would be total chaos. No parables or apexes in our "graph" of choices, just random, nonsensical choices that made no sense and had zero affect on the Universe because everyone would be making decisions with no sense of responsibility.
-------------------- "I found it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay… small acts of kindness and love.” - Gandalf The Grey. "It is the mark of an educated mind to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle "I like to think of Jesus like with giant eagle's wings, and singin' lead vocals for Lynyrd Skynyrd with like an angel band and I'm in the front row and I'm HAMMERED DRUNK!" - Cal Naughton Jr. AKA The Magic Man. Abracadabra homes! "Each tear is a drop of poison released." - Anonymous "Could it be you're afraid of what your friends might say if they knew you believe in God above? They should realize before they criticize that God is the only way to Love."
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mitmitice1
Stranger
Registered: 07/05/16
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: LRG] 1
#24029861 - 01/22/17 08:28 AM (7 years, 8 days ago) |
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i thnk there is free will. depends who you are and what ur belivs. u can choose go with the darkness or the light. in the end u will see that ur daily life is an judgment for the other side.. you will go to darkness where is hell happens(not sure u will be tourtored or what ever) but its defently not the good side. or by your choises you will go to heaven. place of the light and good. fact if u are and indigo or psychic and you are in this planet. its becouse hell was shitty place and you got another chance. (or u wasnt good enogh to be on heven for ever). or u were in heaven but you felt. couse of reasons. that is the free will. be good or be bad. basicly
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Halayudha
Empath



Registered: 01/02/15
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Loc: fresh air, nature, warm-i...
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: mitmitice1]
#24030015 - 01/22/17 09:34 AM (7 years, 8 days ago) |
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A bit either/or - it brought to mind Sartre,... was thinking - did he write a play called, "Either/Or"? and I searched, the play was called, "No Exit," before I got to that though, there was this one: 'We will freedom for freedom’s sake, in and through particular circumstances. And in thus willing freedom, we discover that it depends entirely upon the freedom of others and that the freedom of others depends upon our own.' (J-P. Sartre), a similar thought is also eloquently expressed in my favorite poem, Ad Olum, by S.- (Call me not rebel, though { here at every word {in what I sing If I no longer hail thee { King and Lord { Lord and King) 'Set free thy slave, thou settest free thyself.'
A couple other nice ones there.. (by the former)
'I construct my memories with my present.'
'The real nature of the present revealed itself: it was what exists, all that was not present did not exist.'
'...painful secret of gods and kings is that men are free, Aegistheus. You know it and they do not.'
Man is condemned to be free; because once thrown into the world, he is responsible for everything he does.
Life has no meaning a priori … It is up to you to give it a meaning, and value is nothing but the meaning that you choose.
J-P. Sartre
-------------------- Call me not rebel, though { here at every word {in what I sing If I no longer hail thee { King and Lord { Lord and King
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404
error


Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 14,539
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: LRG]
#24030065 - 01/22/17 09:58 AM (7 years, 8 days ago) |
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Funny you mention automatons. So did Tesla and descartes i learned
Quote:
This realistic aspect of the perceptible universe, as a clockwork wound up and running down, dispensing with the necessity of a hypermechanical vital principle, need not be in discord with our religious and artistic aspirations -- those undefinable and beautiful efforts through which the human mind endeavors to free itself from material bonds. On the contrary, the better understanding of nature, the consciousness that our knowledge is true, can only be all the more elevating and inspiring.
It was Descartes, the great French philosopher, who in the seventeenth century, laid the first foundation to the mechanistic theory of life, not a little assisted by Harvey's epochal discovery of blood circulation. He held that animals were simply automata without consciousness and recognized that man, though possessed of a higher and distinctive quality, is incapable of action other than those characteristic of a machine. He also made the first attempt to explain the physical mechanism of memory. But in this time many functions of the human body were not as yet understood, and in this respect some of his assumptions were erroneous.
Great strides have since been made in the art of anatomy, physiology and all branches of science, and the workings of the man-machine are now perfectly clear. Yet the very fewest among us are able to trace their actions to primary external causes. lt is indispensable to the arguments I shall advance to keep in mind the main facts which I have myself established in years of close reasoning and observation and which may be summed up as follows:
1. The human being is a self-propelled automaton entirely under the control of external influences. Willful and predetermined though they appear, his actions are governed not from within, but from without. He is like a float tossed about by the waves of a turbulent sea.
2. There is no memory or retentive faculty based on lasting impression. What we designate as memory is but increased responsiveness to repeated stimuli.
3. It is not true, as Descartes taught, that the brain is an accumulator. There is no permanent record in the brain, there is no stored knowledge. Knowledge is something akin to an echo that needs a disturbance to be called into being.
4. All knowledge or form conception is evoked through the medium of the eye, either in response to disturbances directly received on the retina or to their fainter secondary effects and reverberations. Other sense organs can only call forth feelings which have no reality of existence and of which no conception can be formed.
5. Contrary to the most important tenet of Cartesian philosophy that the perceptions of the mind are illusionary, the eye transmits to it the true and accurate likeness of external things. This is because light propagates in straight lines and the image cast on the retina is an exact reproduction of the external form and one which, owing to the mechanism of the optic nerve, can not be distorted in the transmission to the brain. What is more, the process must be reversible, that in to say, a form brought to consciousness can, by reflex action, reproduce the original image on the retina just as an echo can reproduce the original disturbance If this view is borne out by experiment an immense revolution in all human relations and departments of activity will be the consequence.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


Registered: 05/07/04
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Quote:
[...]again, this perspective is dependant on the non-dual view: that self is the same as other, that the individual is one with the universe.[...]
'Universe is me and me is universe' ... all nice and fine. Now ask yourself what is this your 'self' that is not around your influenceable space in universe (yet)...
Edited by BlueCoyote (01/22/17 02:06 PM)
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: BlueCoyote]
#24032431 - 01/23/17 03:04 AM (7 years, 7 days ago) |
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to have free will you first have to posit a stable, unified, lasting, self and dreams and much psychology and many lab experiments throw much cold water on this notion
Relativity shows common sense to be bogus but when it comes to believing we are 'our' personalities the feeling is so strong most ignore the evidence
and without a consistent, autonomous, self, the idea of free will is sort of silly also free will would make all selves separate from the rest of the universe and violate causality also what happens when two free wills are in conflict?
it is basicaly a dualistic idea, and as such simply too simplistic, just like the idea of a self
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graceful dragon
omni-love



Registered: 04/20/15
Posts: 460
Loc: flight
Last seen: 6 years, 5 months
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: laughingdog]
#24032733 - 01/23/17 08:51 AM (7 years, 7 days ago) |
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Quote:
BlueCoyote said:
Quote:
[...]again, this perspective is dependant on the non-dual view: that self is the same as other, that the individual is one with the universe.[...]
'Universe is me and me is universe' ... all nice and fine. Now ask yourself what is this your 'self' that is not around your influenceable space in universe (yet)...

Hello - BC and laughing...
limited/unlimited
bound/free
finite/infinite
etc.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


Registered: 05/07/04
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I mean...if you give some kid a ball... he might be lucky or unlucky and play with the ball and become a footballstar, lol So what separates you from the universe is the change you make...
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KauaiOrca
Waterman

Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: 404] 1
#24033068 - 01/23/17 11:50 AM (7 years, 7 days ago) |
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Quote:
404 said: "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free" -Goethe
Free Will and Freedom are two completely different things. Even in complete slavery under an absolute tyrant, free will exists. One can choose to not cooperate and accept the consequences.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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graceful dragon
omni-love



Registered: 04/20/15
Posts: 460
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: KauaiOrca] 1
#24033087 - 01/23/17 12:08 PM (7 years, 7 days ago) |
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or also,
'I have noticed that even those who assert that everything is predestined and that we can change nothing about it still look both ways before they cross the street.'
~Hawking
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KauaiOrca
Waterman

Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
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Quote:
graceful dragon said:
or also,
'I have noticed that even those who assert that everything is predestined and that we can change nothing about it still look both ways before they cross the street.'
~Hawking
Or .. While we can't choose our parents, we can certainly choose what kind of parents we decide to be and how many, if any, children we decide to have.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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