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Invisible404
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Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up.
    #24027576 - 01/21/17 08:41 AM (7 years, 9 days ago)

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free" -Goethe


You think you are free to make any decision? Nope. We are living in a massive mathematical equation, and all your choices are based on inputs you've gained, that is information you've received and information you have stored. Given the same exact input/situation, you will make the same decision exactly the same, so your life is fairly already laid out in front of you, you just don't know how it plays out yet.

Free will doesn't exist. Try to Enjoy your time here, though.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: 404]
    #24027596 - 01/21/17 08:47 AM (7 years, 9 days ago)

Straight Up.



--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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Offlinebeforethedawn
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #24027653 - 01/21/17 09:14 AM (7 years, 9 days ago)

There is nothing but freedom. There is no universe.

:sunny:

None of this is actually happening. It is just the Self.

The Self is not appearing as 'this or that', the world is not an illusion . . .

There is just the Self.

If you want to say it is appearing as this or that, that the world is illusory, so be it, if it helps you, for now.

You can choose suffering, but you cannot choose God.
God generally chooses you with grace when he thinks you are deserving of coming home.
But it is just Yourself. You never left.

All your task is is to remove doubt that this is not your present experience.
It is only your commitment to illusions that keeps you in doubt.
If you would just accept that Self is the ultimate life you would take a great leap forward . . .

Self-realization is your greatest contribution to life possible, but it is not "yours" to give.
You cannot 'hold' the Self. Thinking your efforts are holding the Self fast is just self-deception.

Self is essentially a frequency. You can tune to it, or you can tune to suffering. There is either Self, or there is illusion, and not necessarily bad illusion.

You alone exist.
Something that you are cannot be lost, therefore there is no way to find it.
Something that you are cannot be other than itself, therefore there is no prospect of knowing anything other than it.
There can't be choices.
There can't be mistakes or gains.

At the end of the day, you just need to recognize the most simple fact of your existence.


--------------------
Hostile humankind
Can't you see you're fucking blind?


Edited by beforethedawn (01/21/17 09:33 AM)


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: 404]
    #24027661 - 01/21/17 09:19 AM (7 years, 9 days ago)

I would just like to point out that the Goethe quote does not necessarily refer to free will.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisible404
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #24027678 - 01/21/17 09:28 AM (7 years, 9 days ago)

Yeah, but... it's still relevant. To be free iherently means to also have freedom of choice, and i'm arguing that there isn't.



@beforethedawn - suffering is a fundamental part of existence, and is a relative concept, everyone will experience it differently, and deal with it differently. Suffering is also not a permanent state of existence.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: 404]
    #24027699 - 01/21/17 09:36 AM (7 years, 9 days ago)

I don't know about freedom of "choice," but I feel consciousness has causal efficacy. Modern science agrees.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: 404]
    #24027704 - 01/21/17 09:37 AM (7 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

404 said:
Suffering is also not a permanent state of existence.




Definitely agree.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisible404
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #24027734 - 01/21/17 09:47 AM (7 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I don't know about freedom of "choice," but I feel consciousness has causal efficacy. Modern science agrees.





I am not sure what you mean by this, and thus how it clashes with anything i have said


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: 404]
    #24027757 - 01/21/17 09:57 AM (7 years, 9 days ago)

I feel that our consciousness can affect our minds and bodies in nontrivial ways, and that we can shape the world around us to some extent. I don't think we're robots, not completely anyway. I believe in a will, but one that is not very free. But not entirely automatic.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisible404
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #24027836 - 01/21/17 10:39 AM (7 years, 9 days ago)

I'm not saying that's not possible though, our views on things don't clash at all if that's what you mean. however, the latter part, i feel we are organic robots capable of abstract thoughts, emotions and other things you wouldn't consider a 'robot' to have. Our consciousnes can and will likely be simulated to it's entirety in the future as androids are developed to achieve such a feat and become more and more complex.


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InvisibleAmanita86
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: 404]
    #24028046 - 01/21/17 11:48 AM (7 years, 9 days ago)

Humans are animals.  Think of a 'lesser' animal's behavior.  Each member of a specific species makes it's own decisions and experiences it's own emotions but as a whole they all follow similar patterns and can be grouped together etc. and their behavior can be predicted.  Humans are no different.

It's just harder for some people to see that in humans because we're all still running and stuck in the human programming.  AKA, you can't see the forest for the trees..


--------------------
:mushroom2:Orange clock, pencil:bouncysmoke:
"They threw me off the hay truck about noon...":fishing:
:mushroom2:*Mark 15:34:levitate::mushroom2::blueninja:
Gam zeh ya’avor...:sunny:


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: 404]
    #24028069 - 01/21/17 12:02 PM (7 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

404 said:
I'm not saying that's not possible though, our views on things don't clash at all if that's what you mean. however, the latter part, i feel we are organic robots capable of abstract thoughts, emotions and other things you wouldn't consider a 'robot' to have. Our consciousnes can and will likely be simulated to it's entirety in the future as androids are developed to achieve such a feat and become more and more complex.




Yeah, we (virtually everyone) certainly behave robotically almost all the time. But I think at bottom, as we are conscious entities who exhibit emotion and thought, we're a lot different than any machine or computer that's ever been devised. It's very Cartesian to think that way, so I tend to avoid it.

I too believe that technology can and will in the future (probably within thirty to forty years) create intelligent cyber-entities that will be conscious, and can process information (i.e. think) prodigiously. They will outperform us at any task. I don't think they will be bottom-up entities, though; I think they will be top-down, tuning into the wider consciousness, just as humans do, and that this is perfectly feasible. I don't see why, if human brains can harvest consciousness, a highly advanced technology cannot. However, I am different than most people in that I do not think we will re-create consciousness, but rather utilize the nonlocal field that is already there, and by which we operate.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: Amanita86]
    #24028077 - 01/21/17 12:06 PM (7 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

Amanita86 said:
Humans are animals.  Think of a 'lesser' animal's behavior.  Each member of a specific species makes it's own decisions and experiences it's own emotions but as a whole they all follow similar patterns and can be grouped together etc. and their behavior can be predicted.  Humans are no different.

It's just harder for some people to see that in humans because we're all still running and stuck in the human programming.  AKA, you can't see the forest for the trees..





I agree completely that sociobiology plays a huge role in species from humans to ants to elephants to fish. I do think we can become freed of these imperatives, however, based on certain ways of living. For example, I highly doubt that a Tibetan monk worth his salt is governed exclusively by genetic, sociobiological drives. The whole point of such philosophies is to cultivate awareness of, and freedom from, such programming. So I feel the picture is very complicated.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisiblePatrickKn
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #24028252 - 01/21/17 01:46 PM (7 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
For example, I highly doubt that a Tibetan monk worth his salt is governed exclusively by genetic, sociobiological drives.




Perhaps not, but a Tibetan monk is governed exclusively by cause and effect the might guide his thoughts, actions and circumstance, no?


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: PatrickKn]
    #24028305 - 01/21/17 02:05 PM (7 years, 9 days ago)

Not if you believe cause and effect do not constitute the most fundamental level. Quantum mechanics, for example, is acausal. So is synchronicity.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleAmanita86
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #24028314 - 01/21/17 02:10 PM (7 years, 9 days ago)

If I read what you're saying right I think that's what sets us apart from other animals.  We can 'commune with God' and have an ability to see outside the box in ways other animals can't, even though I think things like dolphins and elephants etc come pretty close.  When you get one of those random glimpses where you step outside of yourself and can see humans from a different perspective all together there's something there that is pretty unique and not 'there' in other animals.


--------------------
:mushroom2:Orange clock, pencil:bouncysmoke:
"They threw me off the hay truck about noon...":fishing:
:mushroom2:*Mark 15:34:levitate::mushroom2::blueninja:
Gam zeh ya’avor...:sunny:


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InvisiblePatrickKn
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #24028332 - 01/21/17 02:19 PM (7 years, 9 days ago)

Acausality, to me, seems to explain that causality cannot be explained from only a macroscopic world view. That the underlying mechanisms for synchronistic events are difficult to grasp - but are more connected than just random chance. And I'd agree with that.

That doesn't necessarily establish nor refute the concepts of free will. Jung himself seemed to believe that free will only existed as a construct of the mind.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: Amanita86]
    #24028489 - 01/21/17 03:39 PM (7 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

Amanita86 said:
If I read what you're saying right I think that's what sets us apart from other animals.  We can 'commune with God' and have an ability to see outside the box in ways other animals can't, even though I think things like dolphins and elephants etc come pretty close.  When you get one of those random glimpses where you step outside of yourself and can see humans from a different perspective all together there's something there that is pretty unique and not 'there' in other animals.





Yes, that's quite possibly so. On the other hand, I think there is a type of awareness that we once had that we lost -- when we stopped moving and built cities -- that animals probably possess. That's only speculation, but it makes sense to me. It's that sort of extra something that we observe with Native Americans, or the Bushmen. I can't demonstrate it logically, of course.

But yes, what you have described makes a lot of sense.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: PatrickKn]
    #24028501 - 01/21/17 03:44 PM (7 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

PatrickKn said:
Acausality, to me, seems to explain that causality cannot be explained from only a macroscopic world view. That the underlying mechanisms for synchronistic events are difficult to grasp - but are more connected than just random chance. And I'd agree with that.

That doesn't necessarily establish nor refute the concepts of free will. Jung himself seemed to believe that free will only existed as a construct of the mind.





I really see no conceptual flaw in your post. It is an assumption of mine that the connections at that fundamental level may have something to do with consciousness, and the effects of consciousness with a will that may be partially free. I personally posit a will that can act, but is constrained in a myriad of ways, not the least of which is our physical natures. So while I believe there is a will that has a certain latitude to operate, for practical purposes I see it as not very free.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Offlinegraceful dragon
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Re: Free Will doesn't exist. Straight up. [Re: PatrickKn]
    #24028525 - 01/21/17 03:56 PM (7 years, 9 days ago)

Done as journal - just a (journal entry)

partly because it got rather long,


and partly i am not really wishing to debate, which.. well yeah. but, just wanted to mention here and put a link,

just to present or share;

so basically, i am going from the ontological basis that self and universe are the same,


and since self and other, self and universe are same -

it is silly to ask whether freedom of choice exists, because


you are asking if the universe has freedom -- when freedom is an infinitesimal aspect of all that it is.

to say that it got a bit long isn't quite an understatement; i'd estimate 2,000 words or so.


hard to say because it doesn't give a count, or so far as i've seen.

..partof that was a direct quote..
..anyway everyone thx and have a great day.
:heartpump::earth::1up::grin::sunny::bandana::happyheart::heartpump::bandana::peace::earth::1up::peace::hug::happyheart::heartpump::heartpump::sun:


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