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OfflineLearyfan
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Ross Perot 1992
    #2402511 - 03/04/04 02:01 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

My blood boils when I think of the fact that Ross Perot got almost 20% of the popular vote in 1992, and STILL wasn't included in televised debates in 1996.

Now I don't care for Perot that much but it makes me very angry to think about this situation. How the fuck do we allow this shit to happen? How can we continue to allow the Republicans and Democrats ONLY, in national debates even after 1 out of 5 Americans voted for another party???

Yet another red flag that we are not at all living in a free country.  :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2:





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Mp3 of the month: BLC - I Don't Wanna Go



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InvisibleXochitl
synchronicitycircuit
Registered: 07/15/03
Posts: 1,241
Loc: the brainforest
Re: Ross Perot 1992 [Re: Learyfan]
    #2402540 - 03/04/04 02:08 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

yes, the powers that be are quite powerful.

I still think it is unwise of third-parties to fight on their turf (i.e. presidential elections). Instead, 3rd parties should focus their attention on offices that can actually be won and use the money/resources/energy saved from not running for president and use that to build up a grassroots movement.

Anything else, today in 2004, is premature and naive.


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As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

-Donald Rumsfeld 2/2/02 Pentagon


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OfflineLearyfan
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Re: Ross Perot 1992 [Re: Xochitl]
    #2402594 - 03/04/04 02:25 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

So you don't think that the Republicans and Democrats should have competition.







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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Ross Perot 1992 [Re: Learyfan]
    #2402604 - 03/04/04 02:29 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I think he's saying that it's unreasonable for them to expect to jump right in and go for the presidency, but I don't agree with that. If Perot got 20% of the vote, it's certainly possible for a third party to win right off the bat.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineLearyfan
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Re: Ross Perot 1992 [Re: Phluck]
    #2402629 - 03/04/04 02:38 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Even if "they can't win" they should be able to debate with the other two parties.

There are issues that both the Dems and Repubs have a vested interest in not discussing. A party that will keep the big two parties honest is very nessessary for this country to stay free.






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InvisibleXochitl
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Re: Ross Perot 1992 [Re: Learyfan]
    #2402649 - 03/04/04 02:45 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

So you don't think that the Republicans and Democrats should have competition.




Oh, most definitely :thumbup: As Phluck pointed out, I think that unless a third party has a massive movement behind them, running for the highest, most powerful office in the world is a futile attempt at reform. Ralph Nader, Harry Browne, etc. and all the other "viable" third-party candidates do not have movement nor funding, therefore they stand no chance against the Democrats or Republicans and the resources that they do have could be better used elsewhere (state, local, county elections as well as activist campaigns/movement building).

The way I see it is, we should all fight battles that we can win and avoid those that we know for sure we'll lose. We then build upon the successes, and move forward with the momentum.

I am not against third-parties running presidential campaigns per se. Quite the opposite. More options, more voices, the better. What I think is unwise is third-parties running for president without any sense of timing or strategy or movement.

Perot received the votes he did because he had movement and funding. He also was allowed to debate as you pointed out. Please note the rules for who debates has been radically changed since 1992.


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As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

-Donald Rumsfeld 2/2/02 Pentagon


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Invisiblemabus
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Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Ross Perot 1992 [Re: Learyfan]
    #2402655 - 03/04/04 02:46 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

They don't like competition do they learyfan.

Quote:

LaRouche - The Night
They Came To Kill Me
From RumorMillNews.com
By Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr.
3-4-4


http://rense.com/general50/laro.htm


On October 6, 1986, a virtual army of more than four hundred armed personnel descended upon the town of Leesburg, Virginia, for a raid on the offices of {EIR} and its associates, and also deployed for another, darker mission.

The premises at which I was residing at that time were surrounded by an armed force, while aircraft, armored vehicles, and other personnel waited for the order to move in shooting.

Fortunately, the killing did not happen, because someone with higher authority than the Justice Department Criminal Division head William Weld, ordered the attack on me called off. The forces readied to move in on me, my wife, and a number of my associates, were pulled back in the morning.

That was the second fully documented case of a U.S. Justice Department involvement in operations aimed at my personal elimination from politics. The first was documented in an FBI internal document dated late 1973.

The first was an internal U.S. operation; the second, of Oct. 6-7, 1986, was international, including the involvement of the Soviet government of General Secretary Mikhail Gorbachev.

To understand the higher level of command behind the way in which the Democratic National Committee bureaucrats have used the Party's nullification of the Voting Rights Act to attempt to exclude me from this election, we must point to the crucial features of the 1973 and 1986 attempts at my personal elimination.
This is not only my cause for complaint. The great majority of Americans are as much the intended victim as I am. They have a right to know what is being done to them in this connection.

read the rest if interested at the link above





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http://www.sacredshrooms.org


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Ross Perot 1992 [Re: Learyfan]
    #2402663 - 03/04/04 02:47 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

My blood boils when I think that Perot got 20% of the vote in '92 and led to the fucking shitbag Clinton being president. It will take another Great Depression for there to be a new party.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Ross Perot 1992 [Re: Learyfan]
    #2402684 - 03/04/04 02:52 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

If third party candidates were able to participate in live televised debates, they would destroy the dualist bigotry that fuels the 2 party system by making both the Republicans and the Democrats looke like idiotic hypocrites.


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peace, pot, and microdot!


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InvisibleXochitl
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Registered: 07/15/03
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Re: Ross Perot 1992 [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2402701 - 03/04/04 02:55 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Yup, hence the changed rules of who can debate.

mabus: can you edit your post? Just post a link :thumbup:


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As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

-Donald Rumsfeld 2/2/02 Pentagon


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OfflineLearyfan
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Re: Ross Perot 1992 [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2402955 - 03/04/04 03:55 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
If third party candidates were able to participate in live televised debates, they would destroy the dualist bigotry that fuels the 2 party system by making both the Republicans and the Democrats looke like idiotic hypocrites.








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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: Ross Perot 1992 [Re: Learyfan]
    #2403139 - 03/04/04 04:37 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

How can we continue to allow the Republicans and Democrats ONLY, in national debates even after 1 out of 5 Americans voted for another party???



Simple. As the debates are not funded by tax dollars, those who do sponser them can select who they wish to include. Which is as it should be. Unless of course you're suggesting more government intervention?



Quote:

Yet another red flag that we are not at all living in a free country.



Actually, it's just the opposite.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,808
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Re: Ross Perot 1992 [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2403144 - 03/04/04 04:39 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

My blood boils when I think that Perot got 20% of the vote in '92 and led to the fucking shitbag Clinton being president.



:thumbup:


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineLearyfan
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Re: Ross Perot 1992 [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2403185 - 03/04/04 04:47 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Simple. As the debates are not funded by tax dollars, those who do sponser them can select who they wish to include. Which is as it should be. Unless of course you're suggesting more government intervention?




You're right, but that's some fucking bullshit.

The only winners of the debates are the companies who are buying the President. FUCK THAT SHIT. People should be outraged.




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Mp3 of the month: BLC - I Don't Wanna Go



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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: Ross Perot 1992 [Re: Learyfan]
    #2403201 - 03/04/04 04:51 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

You're right,



Of course.



Quote:

but that's some fucking bullshit.



Nope. The bullshit would be the government requiring us to associate with those we have no wish to.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXochitl
synchronicitycircuit
Registered: 07/15/03
Posts: 1,241
Loc: the brainforest
Re: Ross Perot 1992 [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2403218 - 03/04/04 04:57 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I think you both are correct. One: the debate commission (cannot recall the name of the organization right now) is a corporate horserace and they limit the debate perimeters. Two: a government-sponsored debate would be just as restrictive.


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As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

-Donald Rumsfeld 2/2/02 Pentagon


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: Ross Perot 1992 [Re: Xochitl]
    #2403225 - 03/04/04 04:59 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I'm not aware of a "debate commision".

Debates are sponsered by (generally) corporations, foundations and news orginizations. They choose who participates.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineLearyfan
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Re: Ross Perot 1992 [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2403286 - 03/04/04 05:13 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Fuck that shit.

We have one more choice than China. You god damn well that that's wrong.




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InvisibleXochitl
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Re: Ross Perot 1992 [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2403310 - 03/04/04 05:19 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Commission on Presidential Debates (CPD). I believe it is a private organization that is in charge of setting debate perimeters. They seem to have a monopoly of how/when/where the candidates debate.

The are private but intertwined with the state like the Federal Reserve.


--------------------
As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

-Donald Rumsfeld 2/2/02 Pentagon


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,808
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Ross Perot 1992 [Re: Learyfan]
    #2403319 - 03/04/04 05:20 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

We have one more choice than China.



Right. And in China how many people run in the primary? And how many parties show up on the ballot as compared to here?


Quote:

You god damn well that that's wrong.



Sorry, but it's not wrong. What would be wrong is the government deciding who private groups must (or must not) include.

Now, I'd love to see more people in the debates. I think that would be good for this country and its people. Not if it means more government involvment.

You letting your emotions affect the quality of your posts.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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