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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,646
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: qman]
    #24022759 - 01/19/17 11:55 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Why do you always deflect to the neoliberals?

Their base (people like me and fal) damn near derailed the Clinton train and forced in a real progressive. We never liked her, stomached Obama, and despised Bill. Where are the true conservatives? Are there any?

"Get your govt hands off my healthcare, but also regulate vaginas."

"As an evangelical, god is important to me, so ill be voting for the abrasive divorcee liberal billionaire who doesnt even belong to a church."


Just like the lefties who fell behind Hillary in the primaries, because they thought she was the only chance in the general, righties are abdicating their values for a chance to snub the other party. Why even be partisan at that point? Theres no moral high ground to be had, just a cheap "haha you lost." Now what? Trump is kicking his own voters off their healthcare plans.

I digress. Where are the true conservatives? The people who advocate for a small, accountable government who works within the powers enumerated by the Constitution? Are they all libertarians now?




"Where are the true conservatives?"

I ask myself that question all the time, they're missing in action as much if not more than the "true liberals".

With that being said, I think the Brexit and Trump results did bring in some much needed nationalism which does please the true conservatives.




Thats true. :thumbup:


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca] * 1
    #24022951 - 01/19/17 01:36 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
It's important for you to understand that in the post WW2 world, a lot of global manufacturing in Europe and Japan was destroyed.



I understand that.  That gave us a small spike in exports from 1945-1950:



Yet the middle class continued to grow for the next 30 years before the policies above were destroyed in the 80s.



1) The impact on WW2 on the Global economy and the USA's ability to capitalize on our manufacturing strength in its aftermath was an enormous economic driver for the US through the 50's and into the 60's.



I just showed a graph proving that US exports only spiked from 1945 to 1950.  Please tell us how "the USA's ability to capitalize on our manufacturing strength in its aftermath was an enormous economic driver" if it didn't drive exports any higher?

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
by the mid 70's, those competitive advantages were disappearing fast with Japanese cars, Europe really surging and cheap labor all over the planet coming online.



According to the graph I just posted, exports didn't dip until the 80's.  And our GDP never took a hit, so money continued to roll in for US corporations.  It just shifted from the working class to the elite.



(no response)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
We began losing our quality advantage which eroded our pricing advantages and then the new global economy started rooting after Nixon's efforts (Britton Woods) and the factors that enabled the kind of tax rates in the 60's were gone.



We know for a fact that corporations and the rich are making more than ever today.  Why can't we tax them the same as before?  :wtf:



(no response)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Our economy was struggling ... interest rates soared to near 20% ...

That's when big changes started happening.  You increase taxes to 80%  TODAY and it would absolutely destroy our economy.  Companies and wealthy people would leave like never before.



The US taxes its citizens regardless of where they live.  And if they want to give up their citizenship they'll have to pay a massive expatriation tax.  Why do you think they would they leave today but not in the 60's?



2) The reason so many wealthy people DID NOT leave the US when taxes were high is that the US was a much better place to live.  3rd world, developing nations were simply not that attractive for most and Americans, then even more than now, had an extreme USA-Centric view of the world.  Globalism has changed that a lot and there are a lot of very nice places around the world for extreme capitalists to live and thrive that didn't exist in the 60's.



You completely ignored the fact that citizens who leave still have to pay taxes.  You also ignored the fact that people who renounce their citizenships have to pay a massive expatriation tax.  I'll address your point about other countries being more developed today.  That may or may not make it more attractive to live there.  I know the less developed a country is, the more they treat me like a king, so if I were move I'd prefer to move where my dollar gets me the most.  Again, the money that I'd be trying to save would be taken from me with the expatriation tax anyway, so it might not be worth moving in the first place.

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
We need a tax plan that incentivizes shrinking the pay gap and we need labor to have seats on the board instead of  unions.



Who do you think unions represent if not labor?  :wtf:



(no response)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
We need better profit sharing plans and incentives and lower taxes.



How does lowering taxes on the super rich benefit the middle class?  :wtf:



(no response)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
3) Globalism changed things at least as much as any policy changes brought on by Reagan.  Global competition, to be specific.  You're somehow missing that and it's an enormous factor.



No, I'm not missing that.  I know the world is a more global place.  You're failing to explain why that contradicts any my arguments.  I've previously argued that we need to do things to protect American jobs, like tariffs and/or trade regulations.

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
4) There are much better ways to reduce the wealth and income gap(s) than returning personal income tax to 80%  levels including corporate tax options that reward voluntarily shrinking the pay gap, labor getting corporate board seats, new tax laws on short term trading, corporate taxes on jobs that burden the Taxpayer with providing basic benefits, etc.



Those are all fine too.  But why would anyone voluntarily shrink the pay gap unless it's to offset a crazy high tax rate like they had in the 50's and 60's?  Corporations aren't going to shrink the pay gap just because they're nice guys.

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
5) Enormous technology changes are coming fast including genetic engineering of the Human Species, nano manufacturing and advanced energy production systems.  Some BIG wildcards that will change things more than the internet and smart phones did.



I know technology is changing.  I live in the Silicon Valley which is the heart of where many of these changes are occurring, and I work for a high tech company that is changing the world.  That technology is creating hundreds of thousands of good paying jobs.  What's your point about new technologies?

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
6) Poor parenting that enables poorly educated and disciplined children to grow up continues to be the number one driver of poverty and lack of opportunity.  We are living in the era of extreme addiction.  That is, IMHO, more than any other factor, what is holding more people back from realizing more of their potential and opportunity.



You sound just like a billionaire trying to convince the country that the reason they're not doing as well as they used to isn't because the rich changed the rules in their favor (which they clearly have as explained above), but because people aren't producing enough.  I can present evidence showing you're incorrect:



--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: Prem. Kissoff]
    #24022958 - 01/19/17 01:39 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Prem. Kissoff said:
Some people are smarter and work harder than others, theyre all self made men, no help from others, if they had been born in the jungles of the Congo they still would have risen to the top of the world!



Empirical evidence proves you wrong.  People born to rich families are FAR more successful.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24023016 - 01/19/17 02:00 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

You sound just like a billionaire trying to convince the country that the reason they're not doing as well as they used to isn't because the rich changed the rules in their favor (which they clearly have as explained above), but because people aren't producing enough.  I can present evidence showing you're incorrect:






Do you truly believe that one little chart you showed tells the entire story of global manufacturing in the aftermath of Japan and Europe being destroyed in WW2? Seriously?  That chart tells the story of the quality revolution in Japan and their auto industry surging in the late 70's?  Of globalism, out-sourcing and the computer age?  Really?

This is a subject that has been studied extensively.  WW2 transformed America ... brought women into the workforce, sparked the baby boomer generation, dramatically improved our manufacturing capabilities ... enabled us to become a global super power ...

And you've got a little export graph you're hanging your hat on?  Come on, man.

I'm not for the billionaire class at all and started this thread because of my concern about the wealth gap. I've put up a lot of serious ideas on how to fix it.  I'm not defending Trump or any of the ultra wealth and think it's a very serious problem.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master

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Offlineqman
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Registered: 12/06/06
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #24023066 - 01/19/17 02:19 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-01-19/trump-will-act-on-nafta-tpp-very-shortly-spokesman-says

Lets see what Trump wants to do with NAFTA.

http://www.plata.com.mx/Mplata/articulos/articlesFilt.asp?fiidarticulo=304

Here's a piece by Hugo Salinas Price on the declining international reserves and the ramifications if Trump gets his way with his trade deals.  Opinions?

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca] * 1
    #24023093 - 01/19/17 02:29 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:




Do you truly believe that one little chart you showed tells the entire story of global manufacturing in the aftermath of Japan and Europe being destroyed in WW2? Seriously?  That chart tells the story of the quality revolution in Japan and their auto industry surging in the late 70's?  Of globalism, out-sourcing and the computer age?  Really?



That graph shows nothing more than the story of US imports and exports.  Now I'll ask again:

HOW DO ANY OF YOUR OTHER POINTS MATTER IF THEY DIDN"T INCREASE US EXPORTS BEYOND 1950?

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
This is a subject that has been studied extensively.  WW2 transformed America ... brought women into the workforce, sparked the baby boomer generation, dramatically improved our manufacturing capabilities ... enabled us to become a global super power ...

And you've got a little export graph you're hanging your hat on?  Come on, man.



I'm not disagreeing with anything you just said.  WWII brought women into the workforce, improved manufacturing capabilities, and enabled us to become a superpower.  Did women leave the workforce in the 80's?  Did we lose our ability to manufacture in the 80s?  Did we lose our superpower status in the 80s?  If not, then what relevance do any of those points have on what happened in the 80's to increase income inequality?

What happened in the 1980's was serious trickle down economics, the purpose of which was to increase the wealth of the rich (with the false promise that in doing so that wealth would 'trickle down' to everyone else).

I'm saying we need to reverse trickle down, because we still have women in the workforce, we still have manufacturing capability, and we still are a superpower.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Registered: 08/12/08
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24023371 - 01/19/17 04:18 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

HOW DO ANY OF YOUR OTHER POINTS MATTER IF THEY DIDN"T INCREASE US EXPORTS BEYOND 1950?




it's a chart we'd have to look at in relation to many factors, obviously.  Which import / export sectors were growing and declining.  What was actual GDP growth itself in the  years you're referring to. 

My point is simple and remains the same, the advantages we gained in the aftermath of WW2 gave America enormous economic benefits and, of course our demographic structural elements had a lot to do with what groups can pay what tax rates and how that impact the golden goose.

Reaganomics was conceived when Interest rates were up near 20% ... severe inflation ... an economy that seemed stuck and an explosion of competition along with the early stages of what we now think of as globalization.  After having read Reagan's diaries I definitely do NOT think he thought of his lower tax policies as designed to enrich the rich more, even if we, today, do think that was one of the outcomes. 

I think the real reasons for global, not just US, super wealth has to do with lending and trading practices that evolved as the new global economy emerged after unpegging to the gold standard and other measure, but in particular, moving off of the Glass Steagall Act and our new trade policies, often designed to give us more control of our energy imports. 

The US economic woes were hidden in the 90's and first half of the 00's because of Americans ability to access new mega sources of credit through home equity lending that fueled huge spending to buy, fix up homes and re-finance debt that was great as long as real estate prices were climbing.  The 08/09.

But as both sides will scream from the mountains, perceived prosperity and wages grew under Reagan and Clinton with those severely lowered tax policies.

It's more complicated, I believe, than you are projecting and yes, I get that you want to blame it all on Reagan and trickle down.  That's just not the case.  The middle class has gotten squeezed more because of globalism and competition for lower prices along with a global share ownership class that brutally punishes corporate ownership if it doesn't return extreme numbers in dividends and stock valuations ... There is an ultra imbalance right now between the value of capital and labor and Reaganomics has virtually nothing to do with it.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #24023411 - 01/19/17 04:36 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Falc:

Without going to the effort of quoting and dissecting your post(s) here are some thoughts:

1) The impact on WW2 on the Global economy and the USA's ability to capitalize on our manufacturing strength in its aftermath was an enormous economic driver for the US through the 50's and into the 60's.

2) The reason so many wealthy people DID NOT leave the US when taxes were high is that the US was a much better place to live.  3rd world, developing nations were simply not that attractive for most and Americans, then even more than now, had an extreme USA-Centric view of the world.  Globalism has changed that a lot and there are a lot of very nice places around the world for extreme capitalists to live and thrive that didn't exist in the 60's.

3) Globalism changed things at least as much as any policy changes brought on by Reagan.  Global competition, to be specific.  You're somehow missing that and it's an enormous factor. 

4) There are much better ways to reduce the wealth and income gap(s) than returning personal income tax to 80%+ levels including corporate tax options that reward voluntarily shrinking the pay gap, labor getting corporate board seats, new tax laws on short term trading, corporate taxes on jobs that burden the Taxpayer with providing basic benefits, etc.

5) Enormous technology changes are coming fast including genetic engineering of the Human Species, nano manufacturing and advanced energy production systems.  Some BIG wildcards that will change things ore than the internet and smart phones did.

6) Poor parenting that enables poorly educated and disciplined children to grow up continues to be the number one driver of poverty and lack of opportunity.  We are living in the era of extreme addiction.  That is, IMHO, more than any other factor, what is holding more people back from realizing more of their potential and opportunity.




I don't think your post was in response to me, was it? Anyway, I like your post, and would say I generally agree with it. Especially point #6. I think shitty parenting and poor education has also lead to half the posters in the political forum being half-wits. I don't really want to see Keynesianism, I want to see a workers revolution. Government policy that democratizes the workplace, or encourages the creation of worker cooperatives. Our ideas about how the workplace ought to function must evolve.

I would ask for that above anything else.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy

Edited by Bigbadwooof (01/19/17 04:58 PM)

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #24023449 - 01/19/17 04:54 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
It's more complicated, I believe, than you are projecting and yes, I get that you want to blame it all on Reagan and trickle down.  That's just not the case.  The middle class has gotten squeezed more because of globalism and competition for lower prices along with a global share ownership class that brutally punishes corporate ownership if it doesn't return extreme numbers in dividends and stock valuations ... There is an ultra imbalance right now between the value of capital and labor and Reaganomics has virtually nothing to do with it.




A case can certainly be made that Reagan's union busting efforts were a significant contributor to the devaluation of labor. I think Clinton is largely responsible for many of our economic woes today. I don't think Falcon is just trying to simply, or exclusively 'blame Reagan', or 'Reaganomics', either. He understands that Clinton, GWB, and Obama have all played their part, along with globalization.

As sad as it is for me to say, Trump may be the first president in a long time to throw a wrench in the machine that is destroying the American middle class. At least he is adamantly against unfettered trade.

If Trump truly does lower Corporate taxes to 15%, and increases tariffs/stifles free trade, your points will be put to the test. We will have Reagan style tax policy, and simultaneously slow down the impact of globalization.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy

Edited by Bigbadwooof (01/19/17 05:01 PM)

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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #24023513 - 01/19/17 05:27 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
It's more complicated, I believe, than you are projecting and yes, I get that you want to blame it all on Reagan and trickle down.  That's just not the case.  The middle class has gotten squeezed more because of globalism and competition for lower prices along with a global share ownership class that brutally punishes corporate ownership if it doesn't return extreme numbers in dividends and stock valuations ... There is an ultra imbalance right now between the value of capital and labor and Reaganomics has virtually nothing to do with it.




A case can certainly be made that Reagan's union busting efforts were a significant contributor to the devaluation of labor. I think Clinton is largely responsible for many of our economic woes today. I don't think Falcon is just trying to simply, or exclusively 'blame Reagan', or 'Reaganomics', either. He understands that Clinton, GWB, and Obama have all played their part, along with globalization.

As sad as it is for me to say, Trump may be the first president in a long time to throw a wrench in the machine that is destroying the American middle class. At least he is adamantly against unfettered trade.

If Trump truly does lower Corporate taxes to 15%, and increases tariffs/stifles free trade, your points will be put to the test. We will have Reagan style tax policy, and simultaneously slow down the impact of globalization.




Hi BBW ... How's 2017 so far?  Any luck with those spores?


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #24023616 - 01/19/17 06:01 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Hi BBW ... How's 2017 so far?  Any luck with those spores?




Honestly, I haven't started them yet. I have a bunch of edibles coming from the works on Saturday. I'm going to start at least 10 different species of mushrooms, hopefully this weekend. I intend to start those SA's also!!! Very excited! I have 500 sterile petri dishes on their way right now!

This year is gonna be epic! :vibin:

How have you been buddy? Any new pursuits in mushroom cultivation? By the way, if I remember correctly, I think you said you were interested in some medicinal species? I think I'll have something for ya tomorrow or the next day, if you would like.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy

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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #24023645 - 01/19/17 06:07 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Hi BBW ... How's 2017 so far?  Any luck with those spores?




Honestly, I haven't started them yet. I have a bunch of edibles coming from the works on Saturday. I'm going to start at least 10 different species of mushrooms, hopefully this weekend. I intend to start those SA's also!!! Very excited! I have 500 sterile petri dishes on their way right now!

This year is gonna be epic! :vibin:

How have you been buddy? Any new pursuits in mushroom cultivation? By the way, if I remember correctly, I think you said you were interested in some medicinal species? I think I'll have something for ya tomorrow or the next day, if you would like.




That would be FANTASTIC ... I think you told me Reishi's are easy and what other medicinals do you think are within my skill range?


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #24023696 - 01/19/17 06:21 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
That would be FANTASTIC ... I think you told me Reishi's are easy and what other medicinals do you think are within my skill range?




You could do cordyceps on sorghum. You don't fruit it, just let it consolidate for an extended period of time, and then extract from the sorghum. There's a way to do it, I can help you find it, if you are interested.

You could do black poplar/piopino mushrooms. I have an LC of that in my culture fridge. Don't know about it's medicinal benefits, you may want to consult pubmed. What are you interested in? I'm sure you could figure out how to do anything you want. You should start working on building a GH setup!


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca] * 1
    #24023751 - 01/19/17 06:34 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
My point is simple and remains the same, the advantages we gained in the aftermath of WW2 gave America enormous economic benefits



WHAT ECONOMIC BENEFITS???

I get all the points you brought up about WWII, but I don't get how any of them provided economic benefit.

How did Europe and Japan being destroyed help us economically if our net exports didn't go up?

How did the US becoming a world superpower help us economically if our net exports didn't go up?

How did women entering the workforce help us economically?

I'm agreeing with all your points, except you're not able to explain how any of these points helped us economically.

The obvious reasons we did so well after WWII are:
-We forced companies to pay people more (minimum wage).
-We ensured companies share profits fairly with workers (pro union policies)
-other New Deal Policies

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Reaganomics was conceived when Interest rates were up near 20% ... severe inflation ... an economy that seemed stuck and an explosion of competition along with the early stages of what we now think of as globalization.



Please explain how anything Reagan did led to a reduction in inflation (serious question).  The reduction in inflation was engineered by Paul Volcker as a result of the Federal Reserve Reform Act of 1977.

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
I think the real reasons for global, not just US, super wealth has to do with lending and trading practices that evolved as the new global economy emerged after unpegging to the gold standard and other measure, but in particular, moving off of the Glass Steagall Act and our new trade policies, often designed to give us more control of our energy imports.



And I agree.  What does that have to do with the economic benefits of WWII, and why didn't that new corporate wealth get shared with the people in the corporations that earned it?

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
The US economic woes were hidden in the 90's and first half of the 00's because of Americans ability to access new mega sources of credit through home equity lending that fueled huge spending to buy, fix up homes and re-finance debt that was great as long as real estate prices were climbing.  The 08/09.

But as both sides will scream from the mountains, perceived prosperity and wages grew under Reagan and Clinton with those severely lowered tax policies.



Again, I agree, but what does that have to do with the economic benefits of WWII and the end of shared prosperity in the 80s?

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
It's more complicated, I believe, than you are projecting and yes, I get that you want to blame it all on Reagan and trickle down.  That's just not the case.  The middle class has gotten squeezed more because of globalism and competition for lower prices along with a global share ownership class that brutally punishes corporate ownership if it doesn't return extreme numbers in dividends and stock valuations



I don't think Falcon is just trying to simply, or exclusively 'blame Reagan', or 'Reaganomics', either. He understands that Clinton, GWB, and Obama have all played their part, along with globalization.



Absolutely!  They kept Reagan's policies intact, and even took some further (repeal of Glass Steagal).


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24023781 - 01/19/17 06:46 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Yes, and Clinton was more to blame for 2008 than any other president. Also, Clinton is responsible for NAFTA.


--------------------
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #24023835 - 01/19/17 07:07 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

:whathesaid:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24024064 - 01/19/17 08:23 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

We all agree ... it's been a lot of policies and a number of presidents that have participated in enabling a giant division between the ultra wealth classes and everyone else. 

Reagan > GHWB > Clinton > GWB > Obama ... they all pushed globalist, economic and freedom for banks to use unheard amounts of leverage to generate personal wealth out of thin air.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master

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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #24024602 - 01/20/17 12:55 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
We all agree ... it's been a lot of policies and a number of presidents that have participated in enabling a giant division between the ultra wealth classes and everyone else.

Reagan > GHWB > Clinton > GWB > Obama



On this we do agree.


What we disagree on is whether WWII had a significant impact on the wealth of the middle class after 1950.  You told me a lot of great things that happened as a result of WWII (which I agree with), but failed to explain how any of those things generated wealth after 1950; particularly wealth for the middle class.

On the other hand, it's clear that higher minimum wages and stronger unions shifted wealth from the rich to the working class from the 40's through the 70's until those policies were reversed around 1980, shifting money back to the upper class.  This can be shown with empirical evidence:



While I do agree that globalism plays a role in shrinking incomes, the export import graph below shows globalism didn't begin the 80's, and there wasn't a significant increase in globalism during the 80s to cause the sudden income shift back to the rich that happened during the 80s.



--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #24026648 - 01/20/17 07:54 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

qman said:
It's funny that during this political campaign these "conservative" talking heads were trying to spew to Republicans what true conservatism was in the first place, they were ALL full of shit.

William Buckley would be turning over in his grave.




Buckley was closer to a Libertarian than any traditional GOP conservative I've seen in my lifetime.




Conservatives are supposed to be, the reason youve never seen it is because republicans have taken. To acting like democrats

If they could stop doing that, we'd be in good shape


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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #24028547 - 01/21/17 04:05 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

qman said:
It's funny that during this political campaign these "conservative" talking heads were trying to spew to Republicans what true conservatism was in the first place, they were ALL full of shit.

William Buckley would be turning over in his grave.




Buckley was closer to a Libertarian than any traditional GOP conservative I've seen in my lifetime.




Conservatives are supposed to be, the reason youve never seen it is because republicans have taken. To acting like democrats

If they could stop doing that, we'd be in good shape




The truth is, it's the "social conservative" element that isn't all that compatible with being what I consider to be a conservative.  It's the pro-life, anti gay big government in the bedroom element that just doesn't jive with small government, stay our of my life conservatism that I find appealing.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master

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