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graceful dragon
omni-love



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what do you make of this Hawking quote?
#24019421 - 01/18/17 09:16 AM (7 years, 12 days ago) |
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..
'Both observer and observed are parts of the world that has an objective existence, and any distinction between them has no meaningful significance. In other words, if you see a herd of zebras fighting for a spot in the parking garage, it is because there really is a herd of zebras fighting for a spot in the parking garage.'
Was he onto something? or just being a cooky scientist?
solipsism, or..?
and how do you integrate it with your other wisdom/experience?
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yeah



Registered: 02/08/09
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I honestly don't get what he's saying
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do it
Master of temporary solutions



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Re: what do you make of this Hawking quote? [Re: yeah]
#24019636 - 01/18/17 10:50 AM (7 years, 12 days ago) |
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I'd say he's trying to convey the message that tangible and measurable things are what's real, like most scientists. I don't know about that solipsism, MAYBE, but I'm leaning more to believing he meant it from a mainstream scientist point of view with anything observable being real.
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sprinkles
otd president


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when I read that it makes me think of truth and reality. its so critically important. it doesnt matter what perception you have or which way you look at it. It's true, factual reality i guess. thats what i understand anyway, which aint much
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
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He was referring to quantum measurement, whereby observer and observed are one interdependent unit that cannot be separated. He is implying that once you observe something, you have a fundamental connection to it. He is also arguing for realism, stating that objects have an independent existence -- but not fully independent, because we can only meaningfully speak about that existence upon observation.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Eclipse3130
Servant of the Fungi



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Re: what do you make of this Hawking quote? [Re: sprinkles]
#24019745 - 01/18/17 11:42 AM (7 years, 12 days ago) |
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Outside of your perception is a REAL world, made of atoms. I think he's trying to say it's not all an illusion, but by doing that he has already opposed the opposite. We can see through quantum physics there is no reality without an observer, but it's a duality, there is also no observer without a Reality.
There is no set truth, facts and statistics are somewhat meaningless in an ever changing world of flux.
The outside world is real, meaning it would exist without our awareness of it, but our awareness is also non-real meaning the outside world only exists through means of our compartmentalization to comprehend and project what is "real" we are the ones which give meaning
We are the ones that emerge order from Chaos.
-------------------- "In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply Different ways in which The All-That Is Perceives Itself"
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Green7Alchemist
Draco



Registered: 12/28/16
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Re: what do you make of this Hawking quote? [Re: DividedQuantum]
#24019856 - 01/18/17 12:36 PM (7 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: He was referring to quantum measurement, whereby observer and observed are one interdependent unit that cannot be separated. He is implying that once you observe something, you have a fundamental connection to it. He is also arguing for realism, stating that objects have an independent existence -- but not fully independent, because we can only meaningfully speak about that existence upon observation.
but also has anyone ever thought that steven hawking was abducted by mainstream science as their poster child, he could make a great point on why God does not exist, he's a veggie in a chair... and for all i know those are not his real thoughts and words being transmitted through that computer, could be some one else. i like watching his videos and seeing his mannerisms
-------------------- Trip 7 THUG - ISLAM - BIBLE streets disciple CHRIST IS KING. Sunshine said: "Gangsters are super heroes"
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sprinkles
otd president


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Re: what do you make of this Hawking quote? [Re: Eclipse3130]
#24019905 - 01/18/17 12:54 PM (7 years, 12 days ago) |
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hmm..... you sunk my battleship.
whether i had one or not is irrelevant. I said it, so that in itself makes it a factual and true. LOL
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
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Loc: Building 7
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I can't help but find Hawking to be a bit of a boar.
warning: graphic not for the feint of heart.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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graceful dragon
omni-love



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Re: what do you make of this Hawking quote? [Re: sprinkles]
#24020290 - 01/18/17 02:58 PM (7 years, 12 days ago) |
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I'm really pleased with this thread, it's really cool; thanks everybody.
Especially Eclipse, and you opened the door for me, in a sense - I was going to post this quote after fourth post, anyway it's cool 
I especially like the first line - ever the poet-
'How to put simply that which is not a simple thing...? Solipsism, I suppose, is where we have to begin—the notion that nothing exists but the self, or, at least, that we cannot truly be aware of anything but our own existence and experience. I can find, somewhere, off in Shadow, anything I can visualize. Any of us can. This, in good faith, does not transcend the limits of the ego. It may be argued, and in fact has, by most of us, that we create the shadows we visit out of the stuff of our own psyches, that we alone truly exist, that the shadows we traverse are but projections of our own desires.... Whatever the merits of this argument, and there are several, it does go far toward explaining much of the family's attitude toward people, places, and things outside of Amber. Namely, we are toymakers and they, our playthings—sometimes dangerously animated, to be sure; but this, too, is part of the game. We are impresarios by temperament, and we treat one another accordingly. While solipsism does tend to leave one slightly embarrassed on questions of etiology, one can easily avoid the embarrassment by refusing to admit the validity of the questions. Most of us are, as I have often observed, almost entirely pragmatic in the conduct of our affairs. Almost...
Yet—yet there is a disturbing element in the picture. There is a place where the shadows go mad.... When you purposely push yourself through layer after layer of Shadow, surrendering—again, purposely—a piece of your understanding every step of the way, you come at last to a mad place beyond which you cannot go. Why do this? In hope of an insight, I'd say, or a new game ... But when you come to this place, as we all have, you realize that you have reached the limit of Shadow or the end of yourself—synonymous terms, as we had always thought. Now, though... Now I know that it is not so, now as I stand, waiting, without the Courts of Chaos, telling you what it was like, I know that it is not so.'
(book 3, Ch.10)
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/The_Chronicles_of_Amber
and earlier in the timeline (book 2, Ch. 1)
'Amber casts an infinity of shadows. A child of Amber may walk among them, and such was my heritage. You may call them parallel worlds if you wish, alternate universes if you would, the products of a deranged mind if you care to. I call them shadows, as do all who possess the power to walk among them. We select a possibility and we walk until we reach it. So, in a sense, we create it. Let’s leave it at that for now.'
A lot of similar, good discussions throughout it... Great series.
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graceful dragon
omni-love



Registered: 04/20/15
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sadly, it's chopped up a bit -- that, not referring to your video, LE.
heh
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
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Loc: Building 7
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Quote:
graceful dragon said: sadly, it's chopped up a bit -- that, not referring to your video, LE.
heh
Don't mince words.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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Green7Alchemist
Draco



Registered: 12/28/16
Posts: 2,171
Loc: Mayami
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Re: what do you make of this Hawking quote? [Re: LunarEclipse]
#24020325 - 01/18/17 03:06 PM (7 years, 12 days ago) |
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it seems to me he doesnt have mushroom for improvement
-------------------- Trip 7 THUG - ISLAM - BIBLE streets disciple CHRIST IS KING. Sunshine said: "Gangsters are super heroes"
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


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Solipsists should meet outside world more frequently, but of course they always can argue it away
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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Eclipse3130
Servant of the Fungi



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Re: what do you make of this Hawking quote? [Re: graceful dragon] 1
#24021147 - 01/18/17 07:36 PM (7 years, 12 days ago) |
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I do believe existence itself in a physical, global, planetary and galactic sense is real, meaning it would remain if we are not.
Where people get confused is their own projections unto the physical world, yes we are the creator of OUR projected reality, but not The Creator, and I think that stands out pretty clearly in most situations. Reality has a funny way of knocking on your front door
-------------------- "In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply Different ways in which The All-That Is Perceives Itself"
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graceful dragon
omni-love



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Re: what do you make of this Hawking quote? [Re: DividedQuantum]
#24021494 - 01/18/17 09:41 PM (7 years, 12 days ago) |
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Peyote Road
Stranger

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According to his logic, if I see an entity, spirit or angel it means there really are entities, spirits and angels (something which is quite obvious to me, but perhaps not accepted by most scientists).
-------------------- The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra
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wolfiewolfie
Just wingin' it.


Registered: 06/16/15
Posts: 2,177
Loc: Australia
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'Both observer and observed' -The observer being your mind which you observe everything from, observed being everything outside of you, the physical, which you observe
'are parts of the world that has an objective existence, and any distinction between them has no meaningful significance.' - there is no difference between the mind and the physical
'In other words, if you see a herd of zebras fighting for a spot in the parking garage, it is because there really is a herd of zebras fighting for a spot in the parking garage.'
-anything that you can imagine in your mind, no matter how bizarre, is just as real as the physical world around you
To summarise, what I think he is trying to say is; All is one.
Maybe? Haha
--------------------
The only reason why T-rex's can't walk backwards is because they're extinct, which perfectly explains why there are no headaches in the rainforest; The parrots eat 'em all. My Drawings
Edited by wolfiewolfie (01/19/17 06:17 AM)
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sprinkles
otd president


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Quote:
proth said:
Free-will indeed gives you the capability to live in la-la land..

I love la-la land. la la land is my land, la-la land is your land.
fuck people living in la-la land
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Eclipse3130
Servant of the Fungi



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Re: what do you make of this Hawking quote? [Re: Peyote Road]
#24022495 - 01/19/17 09:54 AM (7 years, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
Peyote Road said: According to his logic, if I see an entity, spirit or angel it means there really are entities, spirits and angels (something which is quite obvious to me, but perhaps not accepted by most scientists).
Well if you saw it how could it be fake seeing is believing!
Though you saw them through your mind and spirit, not actually physical they are still real in that sense. Ghosts definitely can manifest, I'm sure the distant dimensional entities and beings can to, but only for your particular vibration
-------------------- "In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply Different ways in which The All-That Is Perceives Itself"
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: what do you make of this Hawking quote? [Re: Eclipse3130]
#24022541 - 01/19/17 10:08 AM (7 years, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
Eclipse3130 said:
Well if you saw it how could it be fake seeing is believing!
Are you serious? That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a long time. Do you realize how flawed and illusory our perceptions can be at times? We're only human. Talk about intellectual laziness.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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graceful dragon
omni-love



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Re: what do you make of this Hawking quote? [Re: Peyote Road]
#24022664 - 01/19/17 11:07 AM (7 years, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
Peyote Road said: According to his logic, if I see an entity, spirit or angel it means there really are entities, spirits and angels (something which is quite obvious to me, but perhaps not accepted by most scientists).
Yes, this was what I took from it as well -- if you think you see a herd of zebras - there really is a herd of zebras.
Ah -- i found it, good. . . ( that is, i found what i was looking for ).. ( rather, i wasn't looking for anything too specifically, but was thinking about Buddhist philosophy -- of course it's incredibly diverse, and very vast..... But - specifically, one fairly common concept of Buddhist philosophy is that all is Mind, or all is One Mind, or various things along these lines -- A scholar or interested person could ( if they are good at finding good sources and info,) find many good writings about the various aspects of it.. so -- in glancing or looking, here is one I found.)
'One such school [Cittamatra] asserts that there is no external reality, not even external objects, and that the material world we perceive is in essence merely a projection of our minds. From many points of view, this conclusion is rather extreme. Philosophically, and for that matter conceptually, it seems more coherent to maintain a position that accepts the reality not only of the subjective world of the mind, but also of the external objects of the physical world.'
http://www.lamayeshe.com/article/what-mind
(and, --- yay --- it's by HH the Dalai Lama.)
let's get this back to the astrosphere. hehe. or.... as they say in Vegas, let's get this game out of the muck.
i love you all and i love this thread.
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Green7Alchemist
Draco



Registered: 12/28/16
Posts: 2,171
Loc: Mayami
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Re: what do you make of this Hawking quote? [Re: DividedQuantum]
#24022681 - 01/19/17 11:16 AM (7 years, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said:
Quote:
Eclipse3130 said:
Well if you saw it how could it be fake seeing is believing!
Are you serious? That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a long time. Do you realize how flawed and illusory our perceptions can be at times? We're only human. Talk about intellectual laziness.
lol i have the same thoughts there has to be a logical explanation behind phenomenas.
but what do we make of string theory? does that shit make sense? particles being bound together through space?
seems like pseudo science and the possibility to expand on that theory thru philosophy is definitely present imo, i like to think my soul mate is somewhere out there
-------------------- Trip 7 THUG - ISLAM - BIBLE streets disciple CHRIST IS KING. Sunshine said: "Gangsters are super heroes"
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graceful dragon
omni-love



Registered: 04/20/15
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she/ he is.
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graceful dragon
omni-love



Registered: 04/20/15
Posts: 460
Loc: flight
Last seen: 6 years, 5 months
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rofl rofl rofl ohh
did you just say space particles?
this is me lying on the floor laughing (well... somewhere sometime)
'coz i was just reading this article,
and when i signed out of shroomery and click'd the 'close' button,
saw this paragraph of the article still up
'In some Buddhist literature, we find that in terms of the origin of its continuum, the macroscopic world of our physical reality can be traced back finally to an original state in which all material particles are condensed into what are known as "space particles." If all the physical matter of our macroscopic universe can be traced to such an original state, the question then arises as to how these particles later interact with each other and evolve into a macroscopic world that can have direct bearing on sentient beings' inner experiences of pleasure and pain. To answer this, Buddhists turn to the doctrine of karma, the invisible workings of actions and their effects, which provides an explanation as to how these inanimate space particles evolve into various manifestations.'
"space particles" jumped out at me. 
so here i am. hehe. 
come join in the fun.... beforethedawn.
your expertise at shining light is required.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Quote:
Green7Alchemist said:
Quote:
DividedQuantum said:
Quote:
Eclipse3130 said:
Well if you saw it how could it be fake seeing is believing!
Are you serious? That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a long time. Do you realize how flawed and illusory our perceptions can be at times? We're only human. Talk about intellectual laziness.
lol i have the same thoughts there has to be a logical explanation behind phenomenas.
but what do we make of string theory? does that shit make sense? particles being bound together through space?
seems like pseudo science and the possibility to expand on that theory thru philosophy is definitely present imo, i like to think my soul mate is somewhere out there 
Yeah, string theory is a tough one to take very seriously because there's absolutely no way to test it. I like reading and thinking about it, but it's pretty lacking in legitimacy. I don't know about soul mates or twin flames, but maybe.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Green7Alchemist
Draco



Registered: 12/28/16
Posts: 2,171
Loc: Mayami
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whoa, that is definitly up my alley, ever since i read the "secret", which ok is not the most scientifically sound piece of literature, i've always wondered how can i create my own reality?
is all based on perspective, we know that atoms are the building blocks of our reality, but like these space particles and hawkings zebras seem to imply to me that we can some how manipulate these building block as some sort of nether-world mason or maybe that is what a free mason is.. morphing free space through symbology, geometric designs that vibrate a certain frequency which alter the perceived reality
-------------------- Trip 7 THUG - ISLAM - BIBLE streets disciple CHRIST IS KING. Sunshine said: "Gangsters are super heroes"
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Green7Alchemist
Draco



Registered: 12/28/16
Posts: 2,171
Loc: Mayami
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Re: what do you make of this Hawking quote? [Re: DividedQuantum]
#24023036 - 01/19/17 02:07 PM (7 years, 11 days ago) |
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the atomic world is magic and it will never make sense because the magician will never reveal his secrets
-------------------- Trip 7 THUG - ISLAM - BIBLE streets disciple CHRIST IS KING. Sunshine said: "Gangsters are super heroes"
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graceful dragon
omni-love



Registered: 04/20/15
Posts: 460
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My girlfriend Kayley read that book and really got into it, she wanted me to read it as well and I never did. I have usually been pretty headstrong when it comes to literature, I almost always like to pick the books myself. Of course I am open to new things but I have a good ability to tell which is the most worthwhile. And, not snobbishness exactly, but when you're accustomed to the best - which isn't necessarily long or complex, just the most beautiful, profound, etc., then to read something less than... Well, there's no reason really not to limit oneself to the best .01% of literature, because that is still - very vast.
And I'm just kind of rambling, but I couldn't say there's nothing to that book - I really felt at the time, for the most part - it was just 'lesser' a bit... as in, there were higher magics, so to speak...
Although - it's very good, to think of her and the book again, it brings nice memories. And - now I wouldn't mind listening to it on audio or something, it'd be pretty nice. Like I said, nothing against it, and, it is good to have such things to enjoy, to fall back on, and so forth.
The Atomic world is quite mystical and magical. . . Again coming from the Buddhist sutras,
Aha; yes I found it. It took about a minute or two; a very long time. . .
From the Avatamsaka Sutra, one of my very favorite -- and considered to be the choicest pick of Buddhist sutras, or, the very best - of course, Diamond Sutra, Lotus Sutra, are also considered the best by some - and Vimalakirti Nirdesa Sutra is exceptional.
Ok, so Avatamsaka Sutra, the Great Flower Ornament Sutra - (down at the bottom are the first two tries I looked for... found it on the third; those two sites are really great sources for it, actually.) It also has a beautiful (and famous) description of Indra's Net.
I vow always to meet Buddha’s face-to-face And the hosts of disciples who gather around them; I will raise offerings, which are vast and great, Untiring to the end of future eons. I will hold high the subtly wondrous Dharma And illuminate all the practices of Bodhi; I will be ultimately pure in Samantabhadra’s way, Practicing until the end of time. Inexhaustible blessings and wisdom, I cultivate throughout all worlds; By concentration, wisdom, skillful means, and samádhis, I will gain an endless store of merits and virtues. In one mote of dust are lands as numerous as motes of dust; In each land are incalculable numbers of Buddha’s. In every place where Buddha’s dwell I see the host assembled Endlessly proclaiming all the practices of Bodhi. In ten directions everywhere, throughout the sea of lands, Every hair-tip encompasses oceans of past, present and future. So, too, there is a sea of Buddha’s, a sea of Buddha lands; Pervading them all I cultivate for seas of endless time. The speech of all Buddha’s is pure; Each word contains an ocean of sounds. According with what beings like to hear, The Buddha’s’ seas of eloquent flows forth…
http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhism/D%20-%20Chinese%20Mahayana%20Buddhism/Chinese%20Mahayana%20Buddhism/From%20the%20Avatamsaka%20Sutra/From%20Chapter%2040/Avatamsaka%20Sutra.htm
tries 1 and 2:
http://www.cttbusa.org/fas24/fas24.asp
http://www.cttbusa.org/avatamsaka/avatamsaka4.asp
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


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Quote:
Green7Alchemist said: the atomic world is magic and it will never make sense because the magician will never reveal his secrets
It's simply changing the mental 'angle of perception'. Explanation: Brain creates a big part of our perception to fit our mental context.
and...Poof, magic happens.
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viktor
psychotechnician



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The observed has no objective existence.
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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beforethedawn
Registered: 06/19/16
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Re: what do you make of this Hawking quote? [Re: viktor]
#24027357 - 01/21/17 04:24 AM (7 years, 9 days ago) |
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mind blown
-------------------- Hostile humankind Can't you see you're fucking blind?
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graceful dragon
omni-love



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Re: what do you make of this Hawking quote? [Re: beforethedawn]
#24032777 - 01/23/17 09:13 AM (7 years, 7 days ago) |
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Hello, hello.  I thought you might like it.
Sutra:
These multitudes of Bodhisattvas had already accomplished measureless merit and virtue, which is to say, they could pervasively roam throughout all Buddhas’ countries without obstruction. They could see the pure Dharma body which was without reliance. By means of the wisdom body, they manifested measureless bodies.
They pervaded the ten directions to serve all Buddhas, and entered into all Buddhas’ measureless, boundless, inconceivable, Dharmas of self-mastery. They dwelt in measureless doors of All-Wisdom. With the bright light of wisdom they understood well all Dharmas. In the midst of all Dharmas they attained fearlessness, and accordingly proclaimed the Dharma with unending eloquence, to the exhaustion of the boundaries of the future. By means of great wisdom, they opened Dharani doors.
The last part I wanted to share that is related to the topic; from the same sutra is this - esp. the last sentence of para 1... Anyway 
Thanks and... Namo Loketesvara
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