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ComebackKid
Multispore Enthusiast



Registered: 05/27/16
Posts: 3,951
Loc: ked in the trunk of a car
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Stacking monotubs 2
#24015759 - 01/16/17 08:07 PM (7 years, 14 days ago) |
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Just an observation I made today.
I stacked a freshly spawned tub on top of a harvested tub to save space while I was waiting for more spawn.
I didn't check on them until today and was suprised to find lanky skinny fruits with crazy fuzzy feet. I thought it odd since the MP tape was dialed in the same as it was for the first flush..
Then I noted the condensation.
 I opened up MP tape before taking pics No rings around bottom holes and barely anything under top holes. The lid of my tub was almost completely dry where the other tub was sitting on it.
 A monotub works when air currents are created from heat given off by the substrate rising through the top holes and pulling air in through the bottom.
My guess? The heat generated by the substrate above wasn't allowing condensation to form on the lid of the tub below nor was it allowing enough difference in temperature for the tub to circulate air. The only air flow in the tub would have been from air currents outside the tub entering through top holes.. Which in my case, there was minimal air movement, resulting in low FAE and skinny fuzzy fruits.
I know there are a lot of people who stack tubs on the reg with no issues. Thoughts on this?
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Substrate surface conditions / Monotub prep and care
Look around you... Everything you see exists inside the mind. Consciousness, the awareness that is experiencing this mind, is peering in from outside the universe. Our individual experiences are all part of the universe's experience of itself
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natedawgnow
Rocky mountain hood rat



Registered: 02/09/15
Posts: 8,939
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Monotubs don't work like that. That is closer to how SGFCs work. In an SGFC, the heat created by the cakes and light above pull air up through the bottom holes, through the perlite to create the humidity.
Monotubs work by forcing air through the top holes via outside air currents (i.e. a fan) and allowing it to mix in the tub and slowly trickle out the bottom holes.
I always stack my tubs. The result of no condensation on the lid is because of the heat created by the top tub. Condensation is caused by temp fluctuations, but the lid stays a constant temp because of the tub on top of it.
Air currents are supposed to enter through the top holes and exit the bottom, so that is definitely not your problem and if you think not enough air is entering the top holes, put a fan in there and face it towards a wall
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Edited by natedawgnow (01/16/17 09:19 PM)
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Mycologist217
Frank's Disciple



Registered: 02/13/13
Posts: 2,425
Loc: Man of the Moon
Last seen: 1 day, 10 hours
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I have also had no problem stacking tubs, very close to the cieling! this Thread is a grow log where I used this setup with excellent results:
-------------------- My LC Manual (With custom LC lid Tek) ~~ Required Mycology Supplies ~~ Agar Work Videos ~~ L G M AMU Q&A-NO SYMPATHY FOR THE DEVIL! KEEP THAT IN MIND! BUY THE TICKET: TAKE THE RIDE Check out my Retail Gourmet Mushroom Farm! Mycologist217 is a fictitious entity that uses images supplied by Google to mask his/her inability to develop normal social habits.
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Ziran
The Hero of Time




Registered: 02/03/16
Posts: 6,030
Loc: Temple of Time
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to close to walls? lack of light? bad surface moisture? idk I just wanna know why its only fruiting on the sides.
-------------------- Song Of Healing
Updated Pf Tek Guide Ziran's Teks AMU Q&A Thread The Chinese word for nature is zìrán and it means that of which is of itself.

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ComebackKid
Multispore Enthusiast



Registered: 05/27/16
Posts: 3,951
Loc: ked in the trunk of a car
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Re: Stacking monotubs [Re: Ziran] 1
#24016604 - 01/17/17 06:29 AM (7 years, 13 days ago) |
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It's only fruiting from the sides because I had harvested everything else already. Those were the little baby pins leftover from first flush that weren't worth harvesting at the time. The thing put out 115% BE first flush so far so I'm not expecting much more out of it alt hough it is starting to pin again.
Mycologist217 do you run a fan in your room? That may be why you're not having issues. I prefer not to run a fan and let the substrate do all the work cycling air on its own. Everything was fine FAE wise until I stacked my tubs 
Natedawgnow
Quote:
From Spitballjedi's Principles of a monotub Principle of operation
The dilemma:
We know humid air rises because it's less dense than drier air. So, the humid air inside the mono should rise up and out the top holes, right? Because it's less dense than the drier air in your grow room, right?
You can see evidence of this if you put a substrate in the mono and leave the holes completely open. You will see the substrate drying faster near and around the bottom holes. This is because the humid air flowing out the top creates a vacuum that pulls fresh dry air in through the bottom and causing drying.
We don't want this to happen because mycelium weakens and the substrate becomes more prone to contamination as it dries.
Stuffing polyfil in the bottom holes lowers the volume of fresh air coming in. The tighter you stuff it, the less fresh air.
Looser poly will allow more fresh air, but too loose can cause the drying mentioned earlier.
If you stuff the bottom holes tight, you will protect your substrate from drying, but you restrict the FAE your substrate needs.
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Substrate surface conditions / Monotub prep and care
Look around you... Everything you see exists inside the mind. Consciousness, the awareness that is experiencing this mind, is peering in from outside the universe. Our individual experiences are all part of the universe's experience of itself
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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There were some interesting tests run a year or so ago by a member on airflow dynamics in a monotub. They found that fresh air enters through all the holes. Stale air exits through all the holes. We want the lower ones tight so the sub doesn't dry out. If you need more fresh air, dial the holes in looser. Tiny changes make a big difference.
One thing that was discovered was that having more resistance on some holes and less resistance on others could actually increase the rate of air flow. So if you want to dial up the fresh air loosening one hole might have a bigger impact than loosening two of them.
Finally position in the room often effects how much air is cycled. Room currents do play a factor. It's likely one may need to dial every tub in slightly different to get maximum results.
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spore-ty



Registered: 01/21/16
Posts: 1,028
Loc: In the bush
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said: There were some interesting tests run a year or so ago by a member on airflow dynamics in a monotub. They found that fresh air enters through all the holes. Stale air exits through all the holes. We want the lower ones tight so the sub doesn't dry out. If you need more fresh air, dial the holes in looser. Tiny changes make a big difference.
One thing that was discovered was that having more resistance on some holes and less resistance on others could actually increase the rate of air flow. So if you want to dial up the fresh air loosening one hole might have a bigger impact than loosening two of them.
Finally position in the room often effects how much air is cycled. Room currents do play a factor. It's likely one may need to dial every tub in slightly different to get maximum results.
This Ive come to terms with this as well having to switch spaces 3x every time Ive had to mod my fruiting conditions a bit differently per space to accomplish good results
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azur
God of Fuck



Registered: 04/21/12
Posts: 28,103
Loc: Daid
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I think insanemike deserves a lot of +5's for that experiment.
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spore-ty



Registered: 01/21/16
Posts: 1,028
Loc: In the bush
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: Stacking monotubs [Re: azur] 1
#24016682 - 01/17/17 07:36 AM (7 years, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
azur said: I think insanemike deserves a lot of +5's for that experiment.
Hell yea hes the reason I roll all my windows down a wee bit in a hot box session so the air isn't rushing the ash off the blunt making it go everywhere
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azur
God of Fuck



Registered: 04/21/12
Posts: 28,103
Loc: Daid
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Re: Stacking monotubs [Re: spore-ty] 1
#24016687 - 01/17/17 07:39 AM (7 years, 13 days ago) |
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So Rate him
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Re: Stacking monotubs [Re: azur] 1
#24016716 - 01/17/17 08:03 AM (7 years, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
azur said: I think insanemike deserves a lot of +5's for that experiment.
I gave him 5 even before that
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Dudes been gone a long time
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azur
God of Fuck



Registered: 04/21/12
Posts: 28,103
Loc: Daid
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He's still around. Just working on other interests.
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natedawgnow
Rocky mountain hood rat



Registered: 02/09/15
Posts: 8,939
Loc: ation
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Quote:
ComebackKid said: It's only fruiting from the sides because I had harvested everything else already. Those were the little baby pins leftover from first flush that weren't worth harvesting at the time. The thing put out 115% BE first flush so far so I'm not expecting much more out of it alt hough it is starting to pin again.
Mycologist217 do you run a fan in your room? That may be why you're not having issues. I prefer not to run a fan and let the substrate do all the work cycling air on its own. Everything was fine FAE wise until I stacked my tubs 
Natedawgnow
Quote:
From Spitballjedi's Principles of a monotub Principle of operation
The dilemma:
We know humid air rises because it's less dense than drier air. So, the humid air inside the mono should rise up and out the top holes, right? Because it's less dense than the drier air in your grow room, right?
You can see evidence of this if you put a substrate in the mono and leave the holes completely open. You will see the substrate drying faster near and around the bottom holes. This is because the humid air flowing out the top creates a vacuum that pulls fresh dry air in through the bottom and causing drying.
We don't want this to happen because mycelium weakens and the substrate becomes more prone to contamination as it dries.
Stuffing polyfil in the bottom holes lowers the volume of fresh air coming in. The tighter you stuff it, the less fresh air.
Looser poly will allow more fresh air, but too loose can cause the drying mentioned earlier.
If you stuff the bottom holes tight, you will protect your substrate from drying, but you restrict the FAE your substrate needs.
What he's saying here would be true if all holes were left open, but that's not how we dial in monos. Monos are dialed in with top poly loose and bottom tight to restrict airflow entering the bottom.
The conscensus on here for the longest time was that loose uptop and tight Below with a fan on was the best way to dial in a mono to allow fresh air in through the top to trickle out the bottom.
If you had all holes open then the way you describe it would be your problem but you don't. In fact you have no tape in the top and tape on bottom so if anything more air is entering through the top then through the bottom. Especially if you have a fan or have the ac on in the room.
I remember following mikes thread. A lot of solid info in there!
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Like azur says. spend the time making sure the substrate surface is level and flat. Imo that's the most important dialing in a tub step
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mushboy
modboy



Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 32,281
Loc: where?
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ComebackKid
Multispore Enthusiast



Registered: 05/27/16
Posts: 3,951
Loc: ked in the trunk of a car
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Re: Stacking monotubs [Re: azur] 1
#24016975 - 01/17/17 10:15 AM (7 years, 13 days ago) |
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I need to check that out. It'd be interesting to see how the fuck he measured airflow. That is ahem.. insane 
Natedawgnow I removed the tape before taking pics but you're right. It sounds like there may be a lot more at play than what I originally thought. I've got some reading to do. Anyone happen to have a link handy?
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Substrate surface conditions / Monotub prep and care
Look around you... Everything you see exists inside the mind. Consciousness, the awareness that is experiencing this mind, is peering in from outside the universe. Our individual experiences are all part of the universe's experience of itself
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Wicked Burn


Registered: 05/15/16
Posts: 254
Last seen: 7 days, 9 hours
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Quote:
ComebackKid said: Anyone happen to have a link handy?
Is this it?
Edit: Link above appears to just be his proposal of hypotheses? This thread appears to be his actual test run where he collects data. Just started reading it now.
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Mr. Pink: "Hey, why am I Mr. Pink?" Joe: "Because you're a faggot." -Reservoir Dogs
Edited by Wicked Burn (01/17/17 10:46 AM)
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azur
God of Fuck



Registered: 04/21/12
Posts: 28,103
Loc: Daid
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Quote:
bodhisatta said: Like azur says. spend the time making sure the substrate surface is level and flat. Imo that's the most important dialing in a tub step
Indeed
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ComebackKid
Multispore Enthusiast



Registered: 05/27/16
Posts: 3,951
Loc: ked in the trunk of a car
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Quote:
Wicked Burn said:
Quote:
ComebackKid said: Anyone happen to have a link handy?
Is this it?
Edit: Link above appears to just be his proposal of hypotheses? This thread appears to be his actual test run where he collects data. Just started reading it now.
Appreciate it bro thanks!!
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Substrate surface conditions / Monotub prep and care
Look around you... Everything you see exists inside the mind. Consciousness, the awareness that is experiencing this mind, is peering in from outside the universe. Our individual experiences are all part of the universe's experience of itself
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Dactylium
Don't touch me I'm sterile


Registered: 08/12/16
Posts: 696
Last seen: 10 months, 13 days
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I've noticed considerable evaporation around the edges of the lid when I do my tubs. Maybe the weight of the tub on top creates more of a seal between the lid and tub and inhibits some FAE that way as well.
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Re: Stacking monotubs [Re: Dactylium]
#24017245 - 01/17/17 12:15 PM (7 years, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Dactylium said: I've noticed considerable evaporation around the edges of the lid when I do my tubs. Maybe the weight of the tub on top creates more of a seal between the lid and tub and inhibits some FAE that way as well.
This is a real factor and I dial my top tubs different from the bottom ones accordingly.
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natedawgnow
Rocky mountain hood rat



Registered: 02/09/15
Posts: 8,939
Loc: ation
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How many tubs are you stacking?
I notice less evaporation at the rim but never enough to really make a noticeable difference in the pinset on the bottom tub vs. the top tub.
But then again, the most I stack my tubs is 3 high so I don't know the effects more tubs have
One thing I have done to help with the seal and also to help with light distribution is stack my tubs staggered so they look like a plus sign when looking down from above (+) This really helps light hit all the tubs in the stack and also eases up pressure on all parts of the lid allowing a little more exchange through the crack.
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Dactylium
Don't touch me I'm sterile


Registered: 08/12/16
Posts: 696
Last seen: 10 months, 13 days
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It probably varies between tubs. Some are sturdier than others or their lids fit tighter.
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Mush 4 Brains
about tree fiddy


Registered: 12/19/07
Posts: 8,298
Loc: Tacos
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Re: Stacking monotubs [Re: Dactylium]
#24017522 - 01/17/17 02:10 PM (7 years, 13 days ago) |
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I really dislike stacking tubs, I avoid it if at all possible.
In my grow room I have a ceiling fan I use and the tubs at the top tend to dry out faster and the bottom tubs get less air flow and less light.
But if you have a large grow it's unavoidable. I have 17 tubs going right now and none of them are stacked. It allows me to view things easier for one.
I think people treat hole placement/size like rocket science when really its very simple. Almost any hole configuration will work if you dial it in right.
A lot of tubs I have i made years ago and they're not in the typical style you see here (You know the 4 holes on each side, 2 bottom/sub level, 2 on top) Most of my tubs have 6 holes all at sub level, 2 on each length side of the tub and one on each shorter side.
When I see pins I've gotten into the habit of wedging polyfil on to the lids so the tub is cracked open works nicely. Just mist every other day and it's golden
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ComebackKid
Multispore Enthusiast



Registered: 05/27/16
Posts: 3,951
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Holy shit, InsaneMike is a real beast eh? I hate to say it but most of that article is going way over my head.
The case of the stacked tubs will remain a mystery to me and will just have to be solved the primitive way I guess lots of trial and error
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Substrate surface conditions / Monotub prep and care
Look around you... Everything you see exists inside the mind. Consciousness, the awareness that is experiencing this mind, is peering in from outside the universe. Our individual experiences are all part of the universe's experience of itself
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mushboy
modboy



Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 32,281
Loc: where?
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look on the bright side!
you will collect a shitload of data to help future growers who will use a PMP instead.
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natedawgnow
Rocky mountain hood rat



Registered: 02/09/15
Posts: 8,939
Loc: ation
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ComebackKid
Multispore Enthusiast



Registered: 05/27/16
Posts: 3,951
Loc: ked in the trunk of a car
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Re: Stacking monotubs [Re: mushboy]
#24017819 - 01/17/17 04:07 PM (7 years, 13 days ago) |
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At least with a PMP I'd be able to tell you how air is getting into my chamber 
I actually read that article when I was looking into starting bulk. I was damn near set on making square holes but, being a neat freak, a hole saw was just too tempting  Mushboys SAB would drive me insane. And not in a good way like mike
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Substrate surface conditions / Monotub prep and care
Look around you... Everything you see exists inside the mind. Consciousness, the awareness that is experiencing this mind, is peering in from outside the universe. Our individual experiences are all part of the universe's experience of itself
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mushboy
modboy



Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 32,281
Loc: where?
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damn that thread is waay complicated for just holes in plastic.
square holes? i can barely do circle ones.
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natedawgnow
Rocky mountain hood rat



Registered: 02/09/15
Posts: 8,939
Loc: ation
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Re: Stacking monotubs [Re: mushboy]
#24017858 - 01/17/17 04:28 PM (7 years, 13 days ago) |
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Ya he says later in the post that square holes are too difficult and that it's better to do oval or just use a hole saw.
I just thought it was relevant
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