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Invisibleredgreenvines
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The Dream Dreams the Dreamer
    #24012587 - 01/15/17 04:36 PM (7 years, 15 days ago)

I was looking for web references of a quote spoken bt Neelix on Star Trek Voyager for "The Dream Dreams the Dreamer" because I thought it was a terrific summation of much that I have recently been reading and writing here.

Neelix was quoting Legendary Wisdom from Rhinax, his home planet while the holographic Doctor was looking for guidance related to indulging in a new daydream ability he had developed.

Unfortunately, a simple web search does not reveal any ancient human culture that can be quoted.

I like how it frames Dreaming as the egg from which the dreamer keeps hatching


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24012606 - 01/15/17 04:48 PM (7 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:


I like how it frames Dreaming as the egg from which the dreamer keeps hatching




That right there.  Thanks pal.  Just blew my mind.  Feels like pure release. :heart:
Experientially it sparked a ping that zipped through my awareness and did something special.

There are some sources I could find for it in some mystical traditions that are quiet similar and very on par with that notion.  Give me a bit and i'll post them.


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OfflineLucisM
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Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24012634 - 01/15/17 05:01 PM (7 years, 15 days ago)

"This is the secret of dreams-that we do not dream, but rather we are dreamt.  We are the object of the dream, not its maker.  The French say: "Faire un reve." (To make a dream.)  This is wrong.  The dream is dreamed to us.  We are the objects.  We simply find ourselves put into a situation.  If a fatal destiny is awaiting us, we are already seized by what will lead us to this destiny in the dream, in the same way it will overcome us in reality."

-Jung

Children's Dreams:  Notes of the Seminar given in 1936-1940, pg. 159.


Not what you were looking for, but first thing which came to mind.


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24012646 - 01/15/17 05:07 PM (7 years, 15 days ago)

Transcripts,http://www.chakoteya.net/Voyager/episode_listing.htm


I was curious so I looked, I think this is the episode,

http://www.chakoteya.net/Voyager/603.htm


Quote:

EMH: This'll take care of any potential allergens in the planet's atmosphere. I'll monitor your medical status from the bridge, but I don't anticipate any problems. Since I'm not going, I wonder if you'd mind snapping a few holo-images for me while you're down there.
NEELIX: Gladly.
EMH: Tell me something, Mister Neelix. Do you daydream?
NEELIX: On Talaxia, we have a saying. The dream dreams the dreamer.
EMH: Care to translate?
NEELIX: We like to think that fantasies and daydreams come from someplace else. Another land. They slip into our minds and whisper about things we never imagined.
EMH: A strange notion.
NEELIX: Do you daydream, Doctor?
EMH: Of course not. I'm a computer programme. I prefer wide shots, Mister Neelix. If you're feeling creative, throw in a little ultraviolet.
NEELIX: Will do.






Edited by falcon (01/15/17 05:31 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: falcon]
    #24012723 - 01/15/17 05:39 PM (7 years, 15 days ago)

Falcon; that's the passage! (I am binging on (Netflix) Voyager)

Fennario; it's nice to see similarities with Jung

Blind Ass; cool, that same reason is why I keep thinking back on it.


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24012741 - 01/15/17 05:49 PM (7 years, 15 days ago)

I'm going to watch some of that now that I know it's there.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24012742 - 01/15/17 05:49 PM (7 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

EMH: This'll take care of any potential allergens in the planet's atmosphere. I'll monitor your medical status from the bridge, but I don't anticipate any problems. Since I'm not going, I wonder if you'd mind snapping a few holo-images for me while you're down there.
NEELIX: Gladly.
EMH: Tell me something, Mister Neelix. Do you daydream?
NEELIX: On Talaxia, we have a saying. The dream dreams the dreamer.
EMH: Care to translate?
NEELIX: We like to think that fantasies and daydreams come from someplace else. Another land. They slip into our minds and whisper about things we never imagined.
EMH: A strange notion.
NEELIX: Do you daydream, Doctor?
EMH: Of course not. I'm a computer programme. I prefer wide shots, Mister Neelix. If you're feeling creative, throw in a little ultraviolet.
NEELIX: Will do.




I really like that. :smile:


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: sudly]
    #24012867 - 01/15/17 07:01 PM (7 years, 15 days ago)

dzogchen, tibetan dream yoga, some zen traditions like bodhidharmas and linji , the siddhi yoga of India, the huichol shamanic indians of mexico, and a few others I cannot remember at the moment all have this notion in them.  The dream is that the dream is real - idk why im saying that but I just remembered it from someplace.

That we awaken from a dream into a dream and dream countless dreams to find the dreamer while fast asleep till the day we remember experiantally that we are all but asleep and so we dream the delusive dream of an ignorant sleep to rest and in doing so the cycle continues, usually at death or through intense monk like practice or shamanic practices do people glimpse the primordial minds nature - absent yet crystal clear, it is like magical illusion derp hurp derla . time for bed im off my rocker.


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Edited by The Blind Ass (01/15/17 07:04 PM)


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #24012916 - 01/15/17 07:25 PM (7 years, 15 days ago)

I don't like that :sad::frown:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #24013073 - 01/15/17 08:23 PM (7 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:... The dream is that the dream is real - idk why im saying that but I just remembered it from someplace.

That we awaken from a dream into a dream and dream countless dreams to find the dreamer while fast asleep till the day we remember ...




I think that the operation of a brain (24/7) has the character of dreaming, and that  that dreaming dreams us. - everything we are and think is content of the dream which continues to generate us.

this concept really is not about waking up, and it makes no special distinction between waking or or other states - it's 24/7 whether you are aware of it or not.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24013097 - 01/15/17 08:34 PM (7 years, 15 days ago)

The brain may be electrically active in a 24 hour cycle but the amplitude of brain wave frequencies changes quite dramatically whilst sleeping.

Quote:

"The cerebral cortex is composed of neurons that are interconnected to each other in networks and also receive inputs from other areas of the brain.  Electrical activity in the form of nerve impulses being sent and received to and from cortical neurons is always present, even during sleep. Biologically, medically and legally, the absence of cortical activity signifies death."

"Delta and theta rhythms are low-frequency EEG patterns that increase during sleep in the normal adult.  As people move from lighter to deeper stages of sleep (prior to REM sleep), the occurrence of alpha waves diminish and is gradually replaced by the lower frequency theta and then delta frequency rhythms."

http://www.psych.westminster.edu/psybio/BN/Labs/Brainwaves.htm




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Offlineblingbling
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Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24013174 - 01/15/17 09:06 PM (7 years, 15 days ago)

The idea that we are being dreamt rather than being dreamers ourselves reminds me a lot of the post marxist philosophy, frankfort school etc.

Check out this clip from one of zizeks movies regarding film and dreams:



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Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


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Offlineblingbling
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Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: Lucis]
    #24013179 - 01/15/17 09:08 PM (7 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

Fennario said:
"This is the secret of dreams-that we do not dream, but rather we are dreamt.  We are the object of the dream, not its maker.  The French say: "Faire un reve." (To make a dream.)  This is wrong.  The dream is dreamed to us.  We are the objects.  We simply find ourselves put into a situation.  If a fatal destiny is awaiting us, we are already seized by what will lead us to this destiny in the dream, in the same way it will overcome us in reality."

-Jung

Children's Dreams:  Notes of the Seminar given in 1936-1940, pg. 159.


Not what you were looking for, but first thing which came to mind.




That's gotta be the best Jung quote I've read. Most of his stuff irks me, but I like that :super:


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: blingbling]
    #24013867 - 01/16/17 07:03 AM (7 years, 14 days ago)

yes your right vine, I suppose the only distinction then would be to be nonlucidly dreaming or lucidly dreaming.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: The Blind Ass] * 1
    #24013996 - 01/16/17 08:22 AM (7 years, 14 days ago)

Lucid or not, the content of experience including all aspects of the person's state of mind are from the Dream.

this view seems twisted only because we think of the person dreaming not the dream personing.

the Dream is what is happening in the Brain & Body - that is the creation of the Dream which creates the dreamer.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24014171 - 01/16/17 09:46 AM (7 years, 14 days ago)

still there is an aspect where the dream becomes aware it is dreaming - hence a sense of self and lucidity appear - another dream :smile: but all around It seems so as you say ... mebes.:jimmies:


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Edited by The Blind Ass (01/16/17 09:48 AM)


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #24014203 - 01/16/17 10:02 AM (7 years, 14 days ago)

I'm still aware of my dreams from 2 nights ago when I was in an old mansion being renovated which I explored, then I heard commotion outside and I appeared on the sidewalk of the front lawn. It was there that I saw a husband running up a grassy hill crying to his wife that stood beside me.

As we watched him energetically run towards us there was a small black flash before him and his throat was cut, he was being circled by a swarm of flying saw blades. They flew around him slicing him to pieces until there was nothing but lumps of meat splayed across the green.



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Invisiblewolfiewolfie
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Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: sudly]
    #24014303 - 01/16/17 10:49 AM (7 years, 14 days ago)

This thread reminds me of a meditation video that I used to listen to. I'm really picky when it comes to guided meditations but this one was different from all the rest.



A number of times I've laid in bed listening to this with a few small doses of dmt and it's just amazing.

Listen to the first minute or two (preferably theough earphones) and you will see what I mean :smile:


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The only reason why T-rex's can't walk backwards is because they're extinct, which perfectly explains why there are no headaches in the rainforest; The parrots eat 'em all.

My Drawings


Edited by wolfiewolfie (01/16/17 10:50 AM)


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: wolfiewolfie]
    #24014354 - 01/16/17 11:06 AM (7 years, 14 days ago)

I know them feels.


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InvisiblePenelope_Tree
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Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24014424 - 01/16/17 11:34 AM (7 years, 14 days ago)

What an interesting dream we're in.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: Penelope_Tree]
    #24014437 - 01/16/17 11:41 AM (7 years, 14 days ago)



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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: sudly]
    #24014561 - 01/16/17 12:29 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

oh sudly... :feelsgoatman:


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #24014568 - 01/16/17 12:30 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

What is the meme for the classical psychedelic experience?! is there such a thing?


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #24014631 - 01/16/17 12:51 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)



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Invisiblewolfiewolfie
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Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: Penelope_Tree]
    #24014737 - 01/16/17 01:24 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Penelope_Tree said:
What an interesting dream we're in.



Whos dream is it though, mine or yours? :O


--------------------


The only reason why T-rex's can't walk backwards is because they're extinct, which perfectly explains why there are no headaches in the rainforest; The parrots eat 'em all.

My Drawings


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InvisiblePenelope_Tree
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Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: wolfiewolfie]
    #24014927 - 01/16/17 02:40 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

Both, as the OP suggests. The dreamer is not the creator. The dream creates the dreamer. The dream is not something which can be possessed.


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Invisiblewolfiewolfie
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Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: Penelope_Tree]
    #24014934 - 01/16/17 02:43 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Penelope_Tree said:
Both, as the OP suggests. The dreamer is not the creator. The dream creates the dreamer. The dream is not something which can be possessed.



That sounds almost exactly like this thing I read about a subjective reality belief system
http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2006/05/subjective-reality-qa/


--------------------


The only reason why T-rex's can't walk backwards is because they're extinct, which perfectly explains why there are no headaches in the rainforest; The parrots eat 'em all.

My Drawings


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: wolfiewolfie]
    #24015089 - 01/16/17 03:37 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

Penelope assesses correctly
Quote:

wolfiewolfie said:
Quote:

Penelope_Tree said:
Both, as the OP suggests. The dreamer is not the creator. The dream creates the dreamer. The dream is not something which can be possessed.



That sounds almost exactly like this thing I read about a subjective reality belief system
http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2006/05/subjective-reality-qa/




Wolfie, I think he is onto the same stuff, but it reads with a rough start because he is calling it subjective reality (which demotes it to 50% of the subject/object duality), and he misses the neat perspective in which the dream contains the dreamer.  i.e. the agent is owned and contained by the on-going dream which in some moebius way is the dreamer too.


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Invisiblewolfiewolfie
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Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24015278 - 01/16/17 04:50 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said: he misses the neat perspective in which the dream contains the dreamer. 




"  In subjective reality, “you” have a completely different identity. “You” are the consciousness within which everything exists — time, space, people, places, events… EVERYTHING. You are NOT a human being with a body and a mind. You are consciousness, and there happens to be a human being with a body and a mind within you"

" So in this paradigm, you are not a body with a mind walking around in a physical universe. You are pure conscious awareness, and the physical universe is “walking around” within you."

Dis you read the whole thing? :p


--------------------


The only reason why T-rex's can't walk backwards is because they're extinct, which perfectly explains why there are no headaches in the rainforest; The parrots eat 'em all.

My Drawings


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: wolfiewolfie]
    #24015357 - 01/16/17 05:28 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

no, but I don't like the use of the term subjective, it demotes everything, it's just reality.

or a perspective of reality @ a body in space


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OfflineDuncan Rowhl
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Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: wolfiewolfie]
    #24015445 - 01/16/17 06:07 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

wolfiewolfie said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said: he misses the neat perspective in which the dream contains the dreamer. 




"  In subjective reality, “you” have a completely different identity. “You” are the consciousness within which everything exists — time, space, people, places, events… EVERYTHING. You are NOT a human being with a body and a mind. You are consciousness, and there happens to be a human being with a body and a mind within you"

" So in this paradigm, you are not a body with a mind walking around in a physical universe. You are pure conscious awareness, and the physical universe is “walking around” within you."

Dis you read the whole thing? :p




A pleasing and agreeable summary. :thumbup:


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
    #24016015 - 01/16/17 09:47 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

Perhaps we have the mind of a human being in the body of an animal, connected to nature in a biological way.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: sudly]
    #24016056 - 01/16/17 10:05 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:





LMFAO


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #24016562 - 01/17/17 05:05 AM (7 years, 13 days ago)

nausea is close to godliness


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InvisiblePenelope_Tree
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Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24016741 - 01/17/17 08:25 AM (7 years, 13 days ago)

J'existe, c'est tout.


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InvisiblePrem. Kissoff
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Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24017017 - 01/17/17 10:33 AM (7 years, 13 days ago)

Willy Wonka


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InvisibleKurt
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Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: Prem. Kissoff]
    #24017284 - 01/17/17 12:37 PM (7 years, 13 days ago)

Like the sun coming through the clouds, for a moment.


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Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #24020137 - 01/18/17 02:14 PM (7 years, 12 days ago)

the essence of the idea is to undermine the idea of a separate, stable (controlled), lasting self.

as such the idea may be found both in Buddhism and non-dualism or Advaita Vedanta.


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Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: laughingdog]
    #24020454 - 01/18/17 03:45 PM (7 years, 12 days ago)

sort of like that I think too,  though modeling it and being it are both happening in stages and at the same time.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24021674 - 01/18/17 11:16 PM (7 years, 11 days ago)



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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: Lucis]
    #24022154 - 01/19/17 07:25 AM (7 years, 11 days ago)

apparently what dreams are "sent" do not wish to be disclosed to the rational and awake mind. it's kind of a gyp, honestly.


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Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: akira_akuma]
    #24022774 - 01/19/17 12:03 PM (7 years, 11 days ago)

there is no sending of dreams
that is all upside down


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,810
Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24023520 - 01/19/17 05:29 PM (7 years, 11 days ago)

I think dreams are influenced by the subconscious thoughts we have throughout our day, at least that's what happens in my experience, if I have something on the back of my mind throughout the day I tend to often dream about something related to those thoughts. :shrug:


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: sudly]
    #24023997 - 01/19/17 07:54 PM (7 years, 11 days ago)

or maybe your waking life is the dream you wake up from when you fall asleep :fatfear:


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Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: blingbling]
    #24024771 - 01/20/17 05:33 AM (7 years, 10 days ago)

sleeping is an optional property that can be associated with dreaming


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
Bodhi
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,658
Loc: The Primordial Mind
Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24025028 - 01/20/17 08:40 AM (7 years, 10 days ago)

Quote from Longchenpa that me likey:

Appreciating delusory objective appearances as dream,
the intellect lets go and the grasping immediately ceases-the
objective aspect debunked, the subjective side retires.
Then whenever the mind meets situations as dream,
the intellect searching inside and outside and in between
for something substantial and solid to grasp,
unable to find any point of reference
it subsides into all-penetrating sky-like space,
and intrinsic presence devoid of all compulsive mental activity
arises spontaneously as simple empty clarity.

Grasping ceasing, nothing to be grasped,
the vessel inverted, its contents lost,
phenomena are disassociated, lacking any boundaries.
That is nondual unconditional primal awareness.


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Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Edited by The Blind Ass (01/20/17 08:41 AM)


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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #24027288 - 01/21/17 02:30 AM (7 years, 9 days ago)

Isn't "non-dual unconditional primal awareness" itself a category that must be grasped? The fact that we can read that poem at all tells me we are grasping at something.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #24029496 - 01/22/17 12:49 AM (7 years, 8 days ago)

The most advanced lucid dreamers know this to be true.

At the highest skill level, dreamers will no longer talk to the characters in "their dream" but address the dream itself. Because, after much time and dedication they will realize that it is the dream that is the Self - the characters, and themselves, merely distractions or illusions. So real knowledge comes from the source of the dream (whatever that could be!) not the forms inside it. The messages from the characters are often mysterious, crytpic and, quite frankly, usually nonsense.

You can test this for your self...

Next time you are in a lucid dream, make a demand or request of one of the characters: "If you are simply a form and do not represent my true unconscious source, dissapear at once!" the forms will dissapear - if not, then they are worth asking further questions to learn about dream reality, the unconscious, archetypes and all that great jazz. But you have to make sure they represent the Self itself, not a part of your childhood, or a thought form created during a trauma, and so on.. although this could be potentially enlightening as well.

It's the Self.. the source of YOU. It dreams you up. So don't pay attention to the characters so much, as what the dream is displaying to you. And realizing that you are a character, in the Dream's Dream... now that, is self awareness!



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Edited by EternalCowabunga (01/22/17 12:54 AM)


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Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: The Dream Dreams the Dreamer [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #24029695 - 01/22/17 05:23 AM (7 years, 8 days ago)

the mind is like a spotlight constantly seeking to shine the light on you. one can confront it.


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