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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
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A contradiction in Hinduism
#24012528 - 01/15/17 04:08 PM (7 years, 15 days ago) |
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It seems to me that there is a bizarre contradiction at the heart of Hindu philosophy. On the one hand, they are hardcore fatalists, believing that one cannot change the world, and that free will is an illusion. But on the other hand, at the same time, with respect to their system of karma, they believe that everyone is ultimately and totally responsible for their actions, especially those involving right action and morality. These actions, not up to God but up to the individual only, determine the future course of one's soul. So... they are hardcore fatalists who believe in freely willed behavior. Right? What gives?
Can someone resolve this for me?
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Ziran
The Hero of Time




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I think the idea is that its not a who done it, its a you done it. Because we are all god pretending not to be god.
-------------------- Song Of Healing
Updated Pf Tek Guide Ziran's Teks AMU Q&A Thread The Chinese word for nature is zìrán and it means that of which is of itself.

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Morel Guy
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Re: A contradiction in Hinduism [Re: Ziran]
#24012577 - 01/15/17 04:33 PM (7 years, 15 days ago) |
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Living is complex. If we all could live up to the ideals of the esoteric, we could do anything.
-------------------- "in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur" In filth it will be found in dung it will be found
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Tmethyl
Smear in the shale


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Re: A contradiction in Hinduism [Re: Morel Guy] 1
#24012700 - 01/15/17 05:31 PM (7 years, 15 days ago) |
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I can't resolve this, seems like a clear contradiction. But I can't think of any religion that isn't bathing in contradiction or even based entirely upon it.
Refer to direct experience rather than man-made belief systems. Not one person knows, and not one ever has.
-------------------- ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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falcon



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I think Hindus believe you can overcome your fate through fierce asceticism. That this loophole is available to anyone, god, demon or person is what IMO makes Hindu mythology interesting.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
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Re: A contradiction in Hinduism [Re: Tmethyl]
#24012785 - 01/15/17 06:17 PM (7 years, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
Tmethyl said: I can't resolve this, seems like a clear contradiction. But I can't think of any religion that isn't bathing in contradiction or even based entirely upon it.
Refer to direct experience rather than man-made belief systems. Not one person knows, and not one ever has.
Yeah.
I'm very much a direct experience guy, yes. This is all an intellectual curiosity. I don't really care very much. I just found it odd after reading about Hinduism recently. Thought the topic might be good fodder for this subforum.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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DividedQuantum
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Re: A contradiction in Hinduism [Re: falcon]
#24012788 - 01/15/17 06:18 PM (7 years, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
falcon said: I think Hindus believe you can overcome your fate through fierce asceticism. That this loophole is available to anyone, god, demon or person is what IMO makes Hindu mythology interesting.
Maybe. I just don't get how you can combine explicit fatalism with an explicit belief in personal responsibility, which, as far as I can tell, would require free will. It's mystifying.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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falcon



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I don't think it's complete fatalism. Actions influence a beings life in the future, there is no escape from the consequences of past actions, but every action made in the present adds to a beings fate.
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Why did Arjuna throw down his sword? And why did he pick it back up?
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


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Re: A contradiction in Hinduism [Re: falcon]
#24013002 - 01/15/17 07:58 PM (7 years, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
falcon said: I don't think it's complete fatalism. Actions influence a beings life in the future, there is no escape from the consequences of past actions, but every action made in the present adds to a beings fate.
Right but they also believe that the world can never be changed, and that the higher realms that yogis access through raja yoga are independent of a choosing self, i.e. that the self is not really making choices. It's all very strange that all this is jumbled together.
Edit: I think what I read was misleading, because the author did use the word "fatalism" to describe Hindu beliefs, but it seems that was incorrect.
Edited by DividedQuantum (01/15/17 08:15 PM)
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DividedQuantum
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Found this:
Quote:
Freewill is one of the fundamental principles of Hinduism. In fact, the individual is defined as the container of the freewill. The body and mind are instruments of this individual (called Jiva) to manifest its freewill. Whenever the jiva (using its freewill) decides on a course of action, a part of the action is one of the two contributors to the current result and a part of it accumulates to a store of the effects of past actions. This store is solely responsible for the situations that the jiva faces in life. This store is the other contributor to the current result. The store can be considered as the current state of the jiva. The freewill can be considered as the input and the result can be considered as the output. So, the input results in a state change and an output. Then the jiva makes another decision (input) on the new state. This results in a state change and an output. This goes on in an endless cycle. This is a steady-state model. This model cannot explain when and how this cycle started. This model cannot explain when and how this cycle will end also. But it very satisfactorily answers the current condition and the dynamics of the world and the individual. Birth and death are mere events within this cycle. The jiva’s existence runs across innumerable births and deaths. So differences in birth and death are easily explained. This model puts the complete responsibility of the situation and the action in the hands of the individual. You cannot get more anti-fatalistic than this. This is the model that Hinduism sticks to.
http://practicalphilosophy.in/2011/09/09/hinduism-and-fatalism/
So this guy claims that Hinduism is in fact not fatalistic in principle. I guess the stuff I read about the unchangeable world and the illusion that the self makes decisions should be glossed over.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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It is both and neither. The paradox is resolved in the Gita by Krishna's trickery.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


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Re: A contradiction in Hinduism [Re: Middleman]
#24013266 - 01/15/17 09:41 PM (7 years, 15 days ago) |
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Yeah, I follow you on that. I love the translation of the BG that I have. I was just confused at the level of dogma. What I read seemed to contradict itself. I'm over it.
Of many thousand mortals, one, perchance, Striveth for Truth; and of those few that strive-- Nay, and rise high--one only--here and there-- Knoweth Me, as I am, the very Truth.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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I like Hinduism because it's so customizable and individual-oriented. :hanuman: It's right up there with the Greek pantheon. Seek ye the contrary.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


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Re: A contradiction in Hinduism [Re: Middleman]
#24013295 - 01/15/17 09:53 PM (7 years, 15 days ago) |
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Yeah they really took individual differences into account, and to a level that no other religion ever has afaik. There are many paths to the summit. Plus, you've got to love a religion that is both polytheistic and monotheistic at the same time. That's one of the aspects I think is so interesting.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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There are many paths halfway up the mountain. From there on it's ice cleats and monistic idealism all the way.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



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The lower chakras seem to operate strictly by deterministic forces like self-preservation, preservation of the species, and social interest (inferiority vs. superiority). The further up the chakra ladder one progresses, the less deterministic and the more existential (free-will) do the motive-forces become, with a division of both aspects at the Heart Center. We live in all these centers simultaneously, and the degrees to which these universal motive-forces operate in each of us determines the uniqueness of our personalities. However, humanity is bottom-heavy, and like Maslow's 'Hierarchy of Needs,' most of humanity is preoccupied by the concerns of the lower centers, which are mechanistic and deterministic. Relatively few human beings have moved up the chakra ladder or up the Maslowian Hierarchy and live in a space which is characterized more by existential choices than by the deterministic obligations to biology, society, and culture. In other words, more people demonstrate "Deficiency-Cognition," fewer people demonstrate "Being-Cognition," and of these "B-Cognizers," even fewer can be considered to be "Self-Actualized," as Maslow called them.
The Hindu chakra system which attributes seed syllables, animals, geometrical shapes and other symbols to each chakra, illustrates how God's Being (in the form of universal motives) manifests through each of us from the grosser to the increasingly more subtle levels. Essentially, the more subtle and mental our lives become, the freer we become. Like a multistage rocket on the launch pad, the trip towards Enlightenment requires that we burn the largest stage just to leave the gravitational pull of the earth. The further from its influence we go, the less effort is required until we are in space and free-floating. Likewise, it takes a lot to free oneself from the deterministic factors of biology, society, and cultural influences. Few people even want to be free of these things but immerse themselves within marriage and family rearing within one's ethnic, religious, cultural, socio-economic, and geographical 'givens.' Most people are so identified with these aspects of their selves, they use up the energy needed for Self-Actualization, relegating their earlier spiritual aspirations to 'the unrealistic idealism of youth.' Then determinism looks like obligations, actions are experienced as strife rather than as love for one's involvement. It is a rare thing to feel the same way on Monday morning as one typically feels on Friday afternoon.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
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Fascinating insight, thank you for sharing. 
Your post reminds me of the book The Self-Aware Universe by Dr. Amit Goswami. He brings up similar ideas.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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treesniper119
No one of Consequence



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So you're damned if you do and you're damned if you dont?
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laughingdog
Stranger

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nice Markos
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