|
DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
|
Re: The illusory nature of reality [Re: sudly]
#24018393 - 01/17/17 08:04 PM (7 years, 13 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Ethics can exist in both people but are you saying we all have the same interpretation of ethics or sense of morality?
That's not at all what I'm saying.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
|
sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
|
|
Quote:
DividedQuantum said: The consciousness is the same
Then what are you saying?
In my view, we as human beings can experience a similar situation but not the same situation as someone else.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
|
DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
|
Re: The illusory nature of reality [Re: sudly] 2
#24018438 - 01/17/17 08:17 PM (7 years, 13 days ago) |
|
|
So crucify the ego, before it's far too late To leave behind this place so negative and blind and cynical, And you will come to find that we are all one mind Capable of all that's imagined and all conceivable.
--TOOL, "Reflection"
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
|
sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
|
|
We all come to our own choices, so be yourself and live out your values.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
Edited by sudly (01/17/17 08:32 PM)
|
sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
|
|
Quote:
laughingdog said: 1) our senses are each limited to a certain small range
2) we are missing certain senses ( sonar, magnetism, etc.)
3) then we combine and interpret the results (the raw sense data) in the brain to form an inaccurate/approximate model of the world
4) then we overlay the model with our biases and conditionings
All this without considering particle physics, astronomical time scales and distances, our ignorance as regards death, the unconscious mind, the nature of the self, mind, the dream state, & consciousness.
And finally we ignore our ignorance, and are generally rather emotionally reactive as regards relatively unimportant things much of the time, which results in much unnecessary suffering.
Hence the terms maya and samsara would seem appropriate in describing the human condition.
1) The 8 senses we have, taste, touch, smell, sight, hearing, vestibular (ear balance), proprioception (awareness of body in space) and stereognosis/interoception (visualisation of 3D objects with touch), together allow us to sense our immediate environment, which happens to be the planet Earth. https://www.spdstar.org/basic/your-8-senses
2) We have 8 known senses and they run off of the nervous systems chemical and electrical interactions as anyone who has been to a biology class knows.
3) We visualise objects through a process known as Mental Synthesis in where set patterns of neural networks fire simultaneously in the brain.
4) Our abilities to conceptualise with Mental Synthesis are formed in the same way our memories are and we can only imagine as far as we can combine our experiences into a coherent image.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
|
viktor
psychotechnician



Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 4,293
Loc: New Zealand
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
|
Re: The illusory nature of reality [Re: sudly]
#24018556 - 01/17/17 09:14 PM (7 years, 13 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
sudly said:
Quote:
viktor said: What I find difficult is that I can be consciously aware of my body but not yours. Although the consciousness is in both cases the same.
The way I see it, it makes sense to me that we can be consciously aware of our own bodies because we are aware of our immediate environment through the sensory systems of our nervous system and brain.
So how do we dream, when there is no 'real' environment to be aware of and no nervous system to see it with, but we can still see it?
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
|
sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
|
Re: The illusory nature of reality [Re: viktor]
#24018595 - 01/17/17 09:31 PM (7 years, 13 days ago) |
|
|
I think it's at least evident we can visualise throughout the day, and when we go to sleep EEG readers have shown our brain wave frequencies change to lower frequencies of different amplitudes.
Quote:
"Delta and theta rhythms are low-frequency EEG patterns that increase during sleep in the normal adult. As people move from lighter to deeper stages of sleep (prior to REM sleep), the occurrence of alpha waves diminish and is gradually replaced by the lower frequency theta and then delta frequency rhythms." http://www.psych.westminster.edu/psybio/BN/Labs/Brainwaves.htm
Because of this I think sleep is when our brains go into an active state of mental synthesis that we experience as dreams.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
Edited by sudly (01/17/17 09:38 PM)
|
viktor
psychotechnician



Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 4,293
Loc: New Zealand
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
|
Re: The illusory nature of reality [Re: sudly]
#24018679 - 01/17/17 10:23 PM (7 years, 13 days ago) |
|
|
My question is, if you believe that we are conscious of our bodies because of our nervous systems, how can you reconcile that with dreams in which a nervous system is 100% unnecessary to be conscious of a body?
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
|
sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
|
Re: The illusory nature of reality [Re: viktor]
#24018696 - 01/17/17 10:35 PM (7 years, 13 days ago) |
|
|
Because without a brain I doubt we could dream, and the brain is a part of the Central Nervous System.
For me I have an interpretation of the human experience that is modeled into a Tripartite Dichotomy.

How can you be sure the nervous system is 100% unnecessary for the experience of a dream?
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction and our brains are full of chemo-electric action.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
Edited by sudly (01/18/17 12:03 AM)
|
Kurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
|
Re: The illusory nature of reality [Re: sudly]
#24018833 - 01/17/17 11:50 PM (7 years, 13 days ago) |
|
|
(...)
Edited by Kurt (01/18/17 04:54 AM)
|
sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
|
Re: The illusory nature of reality [Re: Kurt]
#24018848 - 01/18/17 12:01 AM (7 years, 13 days ago) |
|
|
Redundancy of human identification? We as humans are capable of building cities and flying rockets to space.

As for opium I think it has powerful sedatory effects on portions of the brain.

And for how far common sense can go, it's pretty grey I guess, a bit of black and white, good and bad.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
|
beforethedawn
Registered: 06/19/16
Posts: 1,859
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
|
Re: The illusory nature of reality [Re: sudly] 1
#24018875 - 01/18/17 12:17 AM (7 years, 13 days ago) |
|
|
Life is essentially a joke that self-perpetuates once you get on top of it, once you realize you're being played only by yourself.
Doubts and fears can be removed but it is only to make the ego's life easier. Self has no such doubts or fears.
Self-realization is convoluted by our very formal language and ludicrously uptight society.
A good way to put it is,
This is That which Is. That's what This is.
Simply understand nothing. Nothing at all. All work is about undoing what you believe is true.
It's not that "it" is "perfect".
There is just the "is" or there is just the "perfect".
At some stage you have to lose yourself in ordinary awareness and you will be lost forever and always have been.
haha
Your contribution is to exist in that state. That state is life. The world is being, your state changes the world and influences everything karmically. Good vibes indeed!
-------------------- Hostile humankind Can't you see you're fucking blind?
|
sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
|
|
Quote:
A dragon biting it's own tail, Ouroboros The 'infinite' cycle of nature, creation from destruction.
As Erwin Shrodinger put it, negative entropy.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
|
BlueCoyote
Beyond


Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 17 days
|
Re: The illusory nature of reality [Re: viktor]
#24019768 - 01/18/17 11:52 AM (7 years, 12 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
viktor said:
Quote:
sudly said:
Quote:
viktor said: What I find difficult is that I can be consciously aware of my body but not yours. Although the consciousness is in both cases the same.
The way I see it, it makes sense to me that we can be consciously aware of our own bodies because we are aware of our immediate environment through the sensory systems of our nervous system and brain.
So how do we dream, when there is no 'real' environment to be aware of and no nervous system to see it with, but we can still see it?
If I may shortly answer this, because it's an easy one ? Our visual cortex works both ways. That really in fact means that you can 'project' 'mental' pictures onto that part of the brain which works like a canvas. Those pictures are seen crystal clear when you sleep/dream, or similar when you meditate (but not so clear), or what happened to me, taking a special combination of ayahuasca... closed my eyes and saw full screen, crystal clear, full contrast (even more than real contrast), brilliant picture/movie of that what I was thinking of. As I witnessed this happen in full consciousness, it is proof enough for me that it is a basic and physical function of our brain/visual cortex. And of course, when we sleep our nervous system is heavily active while we dream... rem sleep etc. But there are even beta waves and lambda waves when we don't dream. While we dream, our body even has to be paralyzed, because the whole body would work like the visual context. As the whole neo-cortex seems a place for 'reflection which works both ways, like the visual cortex. [stimulus - reaction] And if this paralyzation doesn't work, people start sleepwalking or hitting their partners in bed really hard or speak in sleep ...
Edited by BlueCoyote (01/18/17 12:09 PM)
|
Kurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
|
Re: The illusory nature of reality [Re: BlueCoyote] 1
#24019879 - 01/18/17 12:47 PM (7 years, 12 days ago) |
|
|

A method of generally following discrete observations of experience (sense) in order to recognize a local faculty of perception in cognition; is a lot different than Sudly's formalistic and generally projected physicalism.
I think this is significant. Sudly ironically does not start with the senses, (with experiential observations), as much as he pretends to or formally endorses a "sense-based philosophy" in general, in a kind of pseudo-empiricism and pseudoscience.
So I see a difference in the arguments, that Bluecoyote practically begins with sense experience, while Sudly theoretically postulates sense experiences, or a notion of cognition and neuroscience in a mostly unexamined and formally projected framework.
If the conclusion is similar in that we have discrete faculties of cognition in conscious experience, the difference is still significantly in how we come to this conclusion. We can come either through experiential observations, or projected sudly-esque categories. It makes sense to look to a real empirical/scientific approach when one is being claimed. At any rate, rigorous, practical observation will be crucial in anything considered to be a biological basis of consciousness.
Edited by Kurt (01/18/17 03:43 PM)
|
laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
|
|
some thing like this has been said:
‘thoughts about awareness are not awareness’
but
‘awareness of thought is awareness’
and thoughts are just one form of perception.
All perceptions are only contents, within the context of awareness.
some other forms of perception are:
feelings
auditory: external sounds and internal self talk
vision: external vision and internal imagery
Kinesthetic: sense of touch, balance, temperature etc sense of smell and taste
Through sense perceptions a model of the world is built up, in the brain, in which we presume objects exist, and we also presume that a separate, stable, self exists. Much of this modeling takes place unconsciously, but arrives in consciousness where we take it as fact. Note that this model is itself, a perception or content of consciousness and not awareness itself. Hence it is said, not that: ‘there is no self’, but that: ‘the self is not what we THINK it is’. In dreams we perceive objects and various persons or selves and react to them as if they are real and separate. When ‘awake’ we make exactly the same presumptions, again forgetting the primality of awareness.
|
Kurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
|
Re: The illusory nature of reality [Re: laughingdog]
#24020283 - 01/18/17 02:57 PM (7 years, 12 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
some thing like this has been said:
‘thoughts about awareness are not awareness’
but
‘awareness of thought is awareness’
and thoughts are just one form of perception.
All perceptions are only contents, within the context of awareness.
some other forms of perception are:
feelings
auditory: external sounds and internal self talk
vision: external vision and internal imagery
Kinesthetic: sense of touch, balance, temperature etc sense of smell and taste
Through sense perceptions a model of the world is built up, in the brain, in which we presume objects exist, and we also presume that a separate, stable, self exists. Much of this modeling takes place unconsciously, but arrives in consciousness where we take it as fact. Note that this model is itself, a perception or content of consciousness and not awareness itself. Hence it is said, not that: ‘there is no self’, but that: ‘the self is not what we THINK it is’. In dreams we perceive objects and various persons or selves and react to them as if they are real and separate. When ‘awake’ we make exactly the same presumptions, again forgetting the primality of awareness.
I really like how you put this, and it is something I didn't previously realize. Seems like a good principle:
Quote:
some thing like this has been said:
‘thoughts about awareness are not awareness’
but
‘awareness of thought is awareness’
As I understand, this means it is possible to observe or perceive thoughts. But it is not possible to "think" (ie. rationalize) one's observations, so far as they are actual observations.
This would go as much for meditation, as good science. Same principle. In either case observation has to be actual.
|
DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
|
Re: The illusory nature of reality [Re: laughingdog]
#24020316 - 01/18/17 03:03 PM (7 years, 12 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
laughingdog said: Hence it is said, not that: ‘there is no self’, but that: ‘the self is not what we THINK it is’.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
|
BlueCoyote
Beyond


Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 17 days
|
|
'The self' really loves to test those inner concepts against reality
|
sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
|
Re: The illusory nature of reality [Re: BlueCoyote]
#24020586 - 01/18/17 04:33 PM (7 years, 12 days ago) |
|
|
Congratulations you've described mental synthesis.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
|
|