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OfflineHomesteader
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Re: Gourmet mushroom company lauch [Re: drake89]
    #24138391 - 03/05/17 11:03 AM (6 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah exactly. Same here. We pay 0.05$/ KwH. So it works out to less than a dollar for a full run sterilizing 110GALLONS of volume. Also an electric boiler to generate steam is not the same as heating water. Water holds much more energy than steam and requires a shit ton of energy to heat up. At 5psi it takes 1lbs of water to saturate 157gallons of volume with steam. Obviously some water will be trapped as condensate and you need to make sure the electric burners are always submerged so you need head space. But a 20 Gallon 3000watt hot water tank could easily serve as a boiler for 4x 55gallon drums if the drums are insulated, the condensate doesn't collect in the barrels (or any condensate can return to the boiler) and the system is a closed loop.

So the 2 builds I'm comparing are the following
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17319669
This is a double barrel drum sterilizer built by jason from motown mushrooms. It runs 3psi and the boiler is a 40gallon hot water heat with the 2x elements replaced with 1500watt elements and wired to be either on/off rather than switching between the 2 elements like a normal hot water tank would. He employs a mercoid switch to control power to the tank which maintains his preset temperature. He claims it runs only 15 sec every minute which would imply 6KwH for an 8 hour run, add another 2-3 hours in for heating and we are still under 20KwH which is 1.40$ CAD where I live and would be ~2.00$ at 10cents per KwH.

The other build I'm comparing too is the typical 55gallon low pressure drum sterilizer that employs a 1500watt element to heat a reserve of water which creates steam that then leaves the drum and heats your room like a MOFO! Lost heat and energy. Not to mention the system has to run for 20hours to achieve sterilization. Which as I mentioned is ~30 Kwh. https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23970996
This one is built by Gr0wer and don't get me wrong, it is a great build and is super cost effective. We however, have the budget for a much better build.


Propane brazing the outside of your conductive pot is in no way more energy efficient than using an electric element mounted inside of the reservoir you are trying to heat. With propane you lose half your damn heat to the room, you produce deadly amounts of CO2 and you have to do it outside or in a well vented area. Furthermore, if you are heating the outside you can't have an insulated pot or boiler because you are utilizing an open flame. Electricity is the way to go unless you live in a place where gas is cheap as shit and electricity is extremely over priced.

Also, the design we are building is a heavily modified version of jason's build. We will have many features including being able to select whatever pressure we desire. Water vapor pressure directly correlates to a particular temperature based on elevation. That said, using a thermocouple we can achieve any desired temp. Be it, low pressure for extended periods of time or high pressure for less time. For now everyone will have to sit back and relax while we finish the build and then post the entire thing. Everyone just needs to have faith that 4 engineers from the most reputed canadian university will be fine building a mini autoclave lol. No one is reinventing the wheel. We are simply building a large sterilizer for cheap. We are over engineering and using high grade stainless steel for safety. These claims from lipa that I can get a 5'x10' sterilizer for 5000$ are absolutely outrageous. It would be 5k$ in shipping alone. A proper boiler for that size room would be 5-10k as well not to mention it would need to be connected by a professional to be considered 'to code' and to not void any warranty, assuming there would be one from a Chinese supplier lolll


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Invisiblelipa

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Re: Gourmet mushroom company lauch [Re: drake89]
    #24138619 - 03/05/17 12:28 PM (6 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

drake89 said:
Quote:

lipa said:
Quote:

However, he runs at around 3psi and I plan on going higher - this will in turn will cut the cook time down further.




Higher with what? A 1500kw what @15psi? How long do you think it is going to take to get the air out and get it to 15psi?

I said fuel. Gas is by far more economical than electricity.



Not here dude, we got less than a dime per KWh most of the year...That said if you were going to get a commercial scale boiler you would be hard pressed to find an electric one.  My lights flicker enough when my 30kW tankless heater turns on hehe

Can you really get a 5x10 new retort for less than $5K?  Unicorn Lou was trying to quote me more than that for a used one.  I've also found out from my friends that bought some off him and J Holliday, that buying a boiler and having it fitted can be 1-2x the cost of the actual retort.  Caveat Emptor




Jeeez...yes you pay way less than i for electricity. Mine is from 25-48 cents KW Yes you can get a 5x10 from between 4000 and 6000. Shipping for my 22ft is only 1200$ . If you share a container with someone a 10ft retort would be pretty cheap to ship. You could buy a used boiler for cheap and run a 10ft autoclave at low pressure for a good price. You could even use an old steam kettle boiler. Unicorn Lou was probably trying to make some money. Holliday would go to old canneries and buy up a group of retorts and  make money selling them to people. Honestly... I wouldn't buy a used steel retort from anyone unless it was fairly new. They all rust and degrade fairly quickly no matter how much care you give them. Steel if freakin cheap as hell nowadays in china so most of what you are paying is labor. A 22ftx6ft retort is 18,000$ shipped with racks inside and Siemens control console w/valves (14,000 without bells and whistles). Stainless is double that and totally worth it.

Yes for a nice big gas boiler to run at 15psi and installed is a good chunk of change. It is costing me around $53,000 to get ours put in with labor for a .5ton/hr  boiler. You can run a small retort with a low pressure home boiler at low psi easy.

Homestead....  a 200 gal retort is available (they are available in all sizes) and would cost you the same price as you plan to spend maybe just a little more (Much more safer). I hope you are considering all the cost into your farm operation. Running fans, labor (including yourself), water, cooler to store the mushrooms, lighting,cost of making your spawn, vehicle to deliver, gas, bags, substrate even more.... I really don't see you making money producing less than a hundred bags a day. I hope you can but I doubt it. Spent grain is not that great.

I am not trying to rag on you I just think these little boiler builds are going to end up killing someone. 15psi is super dangerous for a thin walled barrel.... stainless or not. Drake's setup is much more safer and you can still do a hell of a lot of bags at a time. I would get in contact with him and try to do something like he is doing. If you want to crop a lot of mushrooms at once you have to make a lot of bags up at once.


Edited by lipa (03/05/17 03:30 PM)


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OfflineMorePies
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Re: Gourmet mushroom company lauch [Re: lipa]
    #24138705 - 03/05/17 01:12 PM (6 years, 10 months ago)

:takingnotes: :whathesaid:  :takingnotes:


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Offlinedrake89
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Re: Gourmet mushroom company lauch [Re: MorePies]
    #24138787 - 03/05/17 01:48 PM (6 years, 10 months ago)

sometimes I wish I had a large autoclave but it sounds like it would cost almost as much as my whole farm to set up once that does about as much as my humble steam shack will do.  Only down side to low pressure is the cook and cooling time vs an autoclave.  I would echo what Lipa said about batch size.  I did 100 bags by hand with my wife 6 days a week for over a year and it SUCKED.  Compared with 400 or 500 twice a week, using a mixer and the steam shed; it's about twice the production in half the time with a bit more equipment.  Only thing I wish I had stainless barrels for now is fermenting some beer or something :laugh::)


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Fiery Fungi (like us on faeboo)


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OfflineHomesteader
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Re: Gourmet mushroom company lauch [Re: drake89]
    #24139216 - 03/05/17 04:26 PM (6 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

drake89 said:
sometimes I wish I had a large autoclave but it sounds like it would cost almost as much as my whole farm to set up once that does about as much as my humble steam shack will do.  Only down side to low pressure is the cook and cooling time vs an autoclave.  I would echo what Lipa said about batch size.  I did 100 bags by hand with my wife 6 days a week for over a year and it SUCKED.  Compared with 400 or 500 twice a week, using a mixer and the steam shed; it's about twice the production in half the time with a bit more equipment.  Only thing I wish I had stainless barrels for now is fermenting some beer or something :laugh::)




The system we are building should easily be able to do several hundred a day. Cook time at 10psi should be ~4-5hours. I will unload the system while it is still hot as soon as the pressure gauge reads 0psi. The first set of bags can cool infront of the 8' laminar wall while the next batch runs taking advantage of the, still hot, 40 gallons of water in the tank. I'm totally in agreement with you regarding the autoclave. We spent 10k on the whole farm so I wasn't exactly prepared to spend another 10k just on an autoclave. The drum build is leveraging the most we can for now and I believe it is a superb upgrade from carrying my 2x AA41's up 2 flights of stairs while still hot. Not to mention we spent 1400$ CAD on those 2 which give us a total volume of 84quarts. The drum sterilizers are 110gallons combined.


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Offlinedrake89
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Re: Gourmet mushroom company lauch [Re: Homesteader]
    #24140459 - 03/06/17 06:41 AM (6 years, 10 months ago)

i think you're nuts.  even after up to 8hrs my bags were too hot to handle.  i wouldn't suggest trying to handle bags at 212F for several reasons, least of all your hands!  they will be not "sealed" which unicorn bags tend to do when cool(ish) and more prone to sucking in nasties.  which could be a problem if you don't have a clean room.


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OfflineHomesteader
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Re: Gourmet mushroom company lauch [Re: drake89]
    #24140537 - 03/06/17 07:48 AM (6 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

drake89 said:
i think you're nuts.  even after up to 8hrs my bags were too hot to handle.  i wouldn't suggest trying to handle bags at 212F for several reasons, least of all your hands!  they will be not "sealed" which unicorn bags tend to do when cool(ish) and more prone to sucking in nasties.  which could be a problem if you don't have a clean room.




Dude my room is a class 10 clean room.. Positively HEPA pressurized room with an 8' laminar flow. The sterilizer is going in the lab.


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OfflineHomesteader
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Re: Gourmet mushroom company lauch [Re: drake89]
    #24140541 - 03/06/17 07:50 AM (6 years, 10 months ago)

and to answer your concerns regarding heat. https://www.tedpella.com/gloves_html/81724.jpg
Autoclave gloves..


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Offlinedrake89
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Re: Gourmet mushroom company lauch [Re: Homesteader]
    #24140686 - 03/06/17 09:15 AM (6 years, 10 months ago)

brave man


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Offlinehassingw
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Re: Gourmet mushroom company lauch [Re: drake89]
    #24141450 - 03/06/17 02:40 PM (6 years, 10 months ago)

Just listen to Drake on this one ; )


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Invisibleeldearmano
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Re: Gourmet mushroom company lauch [Re: hassingw]
    #24142346 - 03/06/17 09:03 PM (6 years, 10 months ago)

what temp do you keep those babies at for fruiting?


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On a quest to find the undiscovered mushrooms in the Sierra Nevada Mountains of the Caribbean coast of Colombia, South America.


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OfflineHomesteader
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Re: Gourmet mushroom company lauch [Re: drake89]
    #24143210 - 03/07/17 08:57 AM (6 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

drake89 said:
brave man



Thank you sir!:p


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Offlinehassingw
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Re: Gourmet mushroom company lauch [Re: Homesteader]
    #24143325 - 03/07/17 09:39 AM (6 years, 10 months ago)

I'm with drake and Iipa. low pressure steambox. Lot safer than an refurbished autoclave and a lot cheaper at that. Will still set you back a pretty penny.

And if you're worried about volume we can do 4000 bags a day easy with this type of setup.


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Offlinefrog48
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Re: Gourmet mushroom company lauch [Re: hassingw]
    #24145257 - 03/08/17 12:55 AM (6 years, 10 months ago)

OMG, 4000 a day, could you please post us a pic of that vessel?


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Offlinedrake89
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Re: Gourmet mushroom company lauch [Re: frog48]
    #24145633 - 03/08/17 07:02 AM (6 years, 10 months ago)

Spoiler : it's a cargo container 20 or 40ft, can't remember.  Guessing 40ft


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Offlinefrog48
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Re: Gourmet mushroom company lauch [Re: drake89]
    #24145699 - 03/08/17 07:49 AM (6 years, 10 months ago)

Spoiler? Boiler? What kind of?


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Offlinefrog48
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Re: Gourmet mushroom company lauch [Re: frog48]
    #24145702 - 03/08/17 07:51 AM (6 years, 10 months ago)

Just looked through previous post but all pics are removed. Don't know why. Bedrijfsgeheim?


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Offlinefrog48
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Re: Gourmet mushroom company lauch [Re: frog48]
    #24145740 - 03/08/17 08:14 AM (6 years, 10 months ago)

That means business secret in dutch, I'm just an under cover Frog.


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OfflineHomesteader
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Re: Gourmet mushroom company lauch [Re: hassingw]
    #24145796 - 03/08/17 08:50 AM (6 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

hassingw said:
I'm with drake and Iipa. low pressure steambox. Lot safer than an refurbished autoclave and a lot cheaper at that. Will still set you back a pretty penny.

And if you're worried about volume we can do 4000 bags a day easy with this type of setup.




For those who are unaware, 15 psi and under is considered low pressure. The retorts i have used in my life start at 20psi and can go up to 60psi of vapor pressure. If you go to wall, the company that makes pressure relief valves for steam pressure, you'll find they categorize all pressure reliefs under 15psi as low pressure. These of course are designed for steam applications. The barrels we bought came with a spec sheet and are rated to 60psi of water pressure. This obviously doesn't translate to the exact same figure for vapor but I can assure you nothing will happen to my barrels at 5psi or even 10psi for that matter. The first place it will fail is the gasket.
I would also be interested in seeing your set up for 4000 bags a day. Furthermore I'm curious how much that costs. Seeing as you would probably need a 200 000 btu boiler that runs over 5k alone.


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OfflineHomesteader
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Re: Gourmet mushroom company lauch [Re: Homesteader]
    #24145809 - 03/08/17 08:58 AM (6 years, 10 months ago)

These are the exact autoclaves I've used. Made by the American sterilizer company. They are 2-4 gauges thicker than the barrels I just bought but again they run much much higher pressure.



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