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Invisibletruekimbo2
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the non-nessity of love/correct spelling
    #2400542 - 03/03/04 11:40 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

i've been thinking that the whole love thing is very overrated. i have seen no indicators that being extremely loving is overall a more successful trait to have, it just makes you feel better but doesn't really DO anything more than hate does.
since we all create our own reality, i've been thinking that no one reality creation is any better than others on the universal level. they're all equal it would seem, lovelessness/ego centrism may not make you feel as good, but with awareness it can ulitmately accomplish as much.
same with good and evil, niether really does much on thier own.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: the non-nessity of love/correct spelling [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2400558 - 03/03/04 11:45 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Hmm... that's an interesting perspective.

Give me more.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: the non-nessity of love/correct spelling [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2401512 - 03/04/04 07:45 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Perhaps if we remove the emotional portion from the equation, and are left with respect instead of "love", you can see where a benefit arises.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: the non-nessity of love/correct spelling [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2401568 - 03/04/04 08:32 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"i have seen no indicators that being extremely loving is overall a more successful trait to have, it just makes you feel better"

Isn't making you feel better a good enough reason? I mean, if it feels "right".. we can only act upon what our perceptions provide for us. If we do something and it makes us feel shameful (ie, if I rob someone because I've decided that "love" is not the only way to go) then why would we want to do it again?

In a world where our own perceptions create the world, what more do you need to dictate wrong from right than your own perceptions?


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OfflineSole_Worthy
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Re: the non-nessity of love/correct spelling [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2401946 - 03/04/04 11:34 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"but doesn't really DO anything more than hate does"

Love brimgs us together. Hate likes to maintain seperation.

Love feels good

Hate feels bad


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OfflinePedM
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Re: the non-nessity of love/correct spelling [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2402061 - 03/04/04 12:12 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Ego-centralism cannot be conjoined with awareness to accomplish anything. By it's nature, ego-centralism causes us to remain ignorant, the opposite of aware. The depth of our ego-centralism is the depth of our ignorance, because with ego-centralism comes attachment. Attachment functions to ignore the actual appearance of objects of awareness, and instead to impute it's own preferred appearance upon those objects. Attachment is the primary function of ego-centralism, and therefore ego-centralism keeps us bound in ignorance.

Attachment is primarily concerned with the self. If we bring attachment to our relationships, there will always be a sense of aggitation. Attachment relates to an idea of a person that is considered desirable, instead of the actual person. If that person fails to match the expected image of perfection -- and they always will -- our relationship with that person will be filled with aggitation. When we bring attachment to our relationships, it functions to create an mandatory standard which must be met by the other person in order for ourselves to remain satisfied. Such a standard can never be met on a continual basis. Others to whom we have attachment will always fall short of our expectations, and therefore there will always be an element of disharmony in our relationships with others.

Love is primarily concerned with the other. Because love is a function of other-centredness, if we bring love to our relationships, there will always be a sense of harmony. Love relates to an idea of a person that is pure and beautiful. If we have love for another person, they will always appear to us as perfect, precious, and worthy of our respect and devotion, even if they should make harmful mistakes. If we bring love to our relationships, there will be a fundamental concern for the other person, and therefore our experiences with them will be harmonious. When we bring love to our relationships, it functions to oppose the appearance of faults in the other person. If we have indiscriminate love for all living beings, none shall ever fall short of our expectations, and therefore our experiences with them shall always be meaningful and harmonious.

Our mind is involved in an intimate relationship with our reality. Our surrounding environment appears to us in accordance to our mental environment. If we bring a high degree of attachment to our relationship with the people and things of our reality, we shall experience continual dissatisfaction with our life's experience, and shall be susceptible to the harmful effects of hatred and confusion. Even if we accomplish many great things in the material world, we will have accomplished nothing truly extraordinary. It will feel as though we have accomplished very little. We shall experience only disappointment, because our primary concern has been our own selves.

In the same way, if we bring a high degree of love to our relationship with reality, we shall experience only bliss and harmony with our life's experience, and shall be impervious to the sufferings of anger, jealousy, and so forth. Even if we accomplish only a few small things in the material world, we will have accomplshed rare and extraordinary feats with our own mind. It will feel as though we have conquered mountains. We shall experience only happiness, because our primary concern has been the welfare of others.

For these reasons, love is an absolute necessity if we wish to accomplish anything meaningful.


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Offlineaje
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Re: the non-nessity of love/correct spelling [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2407608 - 03/08/04 04:59 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:


Love brimgs us together. Hate likes to maintain seperation.

Love feels good

Hate feels bad




^^^^This is what I'd say. Hate just isn't fun.


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Offlinegwaaaar
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Re: the non-nessity of love/correct spelling [Re: aje]
    #2409164 - 03/08/04 11:44 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

but thats my point exactly ped. the state of aggitation, the inability to be fully satisfyed. ulitimately being satisyed and not being in a state of continual aggitation doesn't do much except make you harmonious with others, which doesn't do much but help everyone feel better.

When we bring attachment to our relationships, it functions to create an mandatory standard which must be met by the other person in order for ourselves to remain satisfied. Such a standard can never be met on a continual basis. Others to whom we have attachment will always fall short of our expectations, and therefore there will always be an element of disharmony in our relationships with others.

so? is there any problem with others not living up to our expectations, better to change our expectations to meet... the thier own? the universes? something non-personal?

"Our mind is involved in an intimate relationship with our reality. Our surrounding environment appears to us in accordance to our mental environment. If we bring a high degree of attachment to our relationship with the people and things of our reality, we shall experience continual dissatisfaction with our life's experience, and shall be susceptible to the harmful effects of hatred and confusion. "

why are hatred and confusion harmful? like i said, both hatred and confusion seem to accomplish about just as much positive stuff in the world as negative, same as everything else.

"we will have accomplshed rare and extraordinary feats with our own mind. It will feel as though we have conquered mountains"
why not just conquer montains? that way it wont' be in our head and we'll have something we can say to poeple....

"For these reasons, love is an absolute necessity if we wish to accomplish anything meaningful. "
meaningful being completely relative.

"love feels good
hate feels bad"
-> thats the point, its possible to realise that a)feelings, b)good and bad are both pretty irrelavent to what happens physically in the world, the world that we have chosen to inhabit.
i mean if you go off on your own and are a complete universe unto yourself than it would be alot differnt, your feelings and peceptions of the universe that would be all that counted, so in that case it would make alot more sense to want to achieve harmony. but since all of us (if you have the internet i'm going to assume you're pretty heavily involved in society/human interaction) have intentionally chosen to disregard any objective standard of hapiness/perfection/functionality then for the sake of common respect i feel we should acknowledge that its all equal. poeple who go around spouting love BULLSHIT like its some sort of universal concept and not a human invention annoy me.

feel free to continue the discussion, i didn't really respond fully anyways since i'm lazy.

whoops again, this is truekimbo2, posted from my brother's account on accident, not a puppet, please don't delete or anything.


Edited by gwaaaar (03/09/04 12:24 AM)


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OfflineScolecite
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Re: the non-nessity of love/correct spelling [Re: gwaaaar]
    #2410101 - 03/09/04 07:27 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)



Stars= LOVE

Space= Evil/Hate
which is more important, the stars or the space?

The good thing about love is, if someone loves you, both parties benefit.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: the non-nessity of love/correct spelling [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2410251 - 03/09/04 09:41 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I remember when I was in my 20's and having a sort-of custody dispute. He pulled a few tricks on me, and I hated him so much that it was eating me up inside. All I could think about was how much I hated him. I was obsessing over what he did, and my hate for him.

And then, one day, I decided to pray for him, based on some things I had heard. How can you pray for someone, or forget even praying, but how can you think good thoughts or wish good things, for someone you hate?

So, I prayed/wished good things for him. It was so hard at first. (Did I say how much I hated him?) But I prayed/wished and it became easier and easier and eventually, after a couple of weeks or so, I wasn't hating him as much, and eventually I didn't hate him at all. We didn't go to court, everything worked out, and we've been friends ever since.

In fact, I remarried after that and because he was living in China for a while, he would come back to the States to see our son and he would stay with me and my (now ex) husband.

Life is interesting. But hating doesn't help anyone. Love goes a lot further. I didn't decided to pray for him "for him" necessarily. It was for me. I needed peace of mind.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: the non-nessity of love/correct spelling [Re: Frog]
    #2410306 - 03/09/04 10:09 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Life is interesting. But hating doesn't help anyone. Love goes a lot further. I didn't decided to pray for him "for him" necessarily. It was for me. I needed peace of mind.

Indeed, I feel pretty sorry for those people who seem to be suspended in a permanent sour-disposition. Always judging and being a generally tormentive asshole. It takes energy to screw your face up into an ugly scowl. A smile comes naturally. Exchanging pleasantries with people makes you feel good. Walking around scowling at people you don't approve of is pretty tough on the hardware. It raises the blood pressure and releases excess stomach acid. The result is high blood pressure, stomach ulcers and an early exit from a miserable life.



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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: the non-nessity of love/correct spelling [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2410387 - 03/09/04 10:35 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Agreed, although I still follow the path of love over hate. Truth over deception. Why? Because deep down something makes me want to be as pure as possible, as good as possible. Maybe its the programming within my reality, it most likely is.

The overall factor is 'Do unto others...' I treat how I would like to be treated and I would rather be loved than hated.


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OfflinePedM
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Re: the non-nessity of love/correct spelling [Re: gwaaaar]
    #2410413 - 03/09/04 10:40 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

>> but thats my point exactly ped. the state of aggitation, the inability to be fully satisfyed. ulitimately being satisyed and not being in a state of continual aggitation doesn't do much except make you harmonious with others, which doesn't do much but help everyone feel better.

And it follows therefore that if we are able to abide within peaceful states of warmth toward others, that our behaviour on the whole will be much more conducive to peace and warmth on this earth. There is only so much that can be accomplished, either technologically or economically, through the force of military necessity.

The essential point here is that cultivating minds of warmth for others brings us away from suffering and hardship and into a lasting happiness. Isn't this what we all want out of life?


>> is there any problem with others not living up to our expectations, better to change our expectations to meet... the thier own? the universes? something non-personal?

If we are continuously setting unattainable standards for the expected behaviour of others, we will be continuously dissatisfied in our encounters with them. If we are continuously dissatisfied with those with whom we have relationships, we are prone to the harmful effects of anger and hatred. Attachment creates the potential for violence, and is a cause of conflict. By extension, attachment, a function self-interest, is a major source of suffering.

Attachment is at the root of all violent conflict, whether it be between two drunk individuals at a bar, or between the leaders of two neighbouring nations. If we want peace on this earth, we must cultivate in our own minds the opponent to attachment, love.


>> why are hatred and confusion harmful? like i said, both hatred and confusion seem to accomplish about just as much positive stuff in the world as negative, same as everything else.

Hatred and confusion are causes of suffering. We can accomplish great things while burdened with the negativities of hatred and confusion. We can accomplish equal or greater things when freed of this burden. It is logical that we would wish to progress free of hinderances.


>> why not just conquer montains? that way it wont' be in our head and we'll have something we can say to poeple

If we are beset at all times by delusive thoughts which cause us inner tension, anxiety, and confusion, what satisfaction can be reaped from climbing a mountain that will not be quickly consumed by our otherwise unattended afflictive emotions? Even the satisfaction reaped from the following weeks of boasting will eventually be exhausted.


>> meaningful being completely relative.

>> good and bad are both pretty irrelavent to what happens physically in the world

Of course this is true. There is nothing which indicates love to be favourable to hatred except our own experience. As human beings, we all wish to be happy and free from suffering and problems. Guided by this wish, we engage in many different actions. Some of these actions are helpful to accomplish our wish. Many more of these are not helpful at all. All we must do to make our lives meaningful is orient our behaviour in such a way that is conducive to the fulfillment of our most essential wishes. There is no need to be concerned with any sort of objective morality, or an externally imposed set of ethics.

Rather than searching empty space for an objective set of rules for conduct which can be considered truth, it's much more sensical to approach the problem pragmatically, and base our behaviour upon that which accomplishes our fundamental wish, which is to discover a lasting happiness, one that is unshakable even at the time of death.


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Re: the non-nessity of love/correct spelling [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2410556 - 03/09/04 11:36 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

This is a good post. I like your objective viewpoint. The atoms of the universe don't care what they are used to create, whether it's guns or art. It's human emotions that judge whether something is "good" or "bad," and we tend to avoid "bad" because we don't like suffering. Life is all about experience and learning, and you can get that from both hate and love. Just do what comes natural, and if your role in the universe is to be an asshole, then so be it. It ultimately doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: the non-nessity of love/correct spelling [Re: ]
    #2410578 - 03/09/04 11:48 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

>>>if your role in the universe is to be an asshole, then so be it. It ultimately doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things<<<

As a human with vested interest in human rights I would argue it does. OK I know it doesn't matter to the molecules or god (doesn't exist).

But take Hitler, for example, if he had gotten away with being an arsehole we would be in a completely different world. Although, yes still in the grand scheme. I spose the problem is that there is no God to set out rules for us all. We are all animals simply protecting our own existance. But yet this urge to help the world with its problems...


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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: the non-nessity of love/correct spelling [Re: Ego Death]
    #2413168 - 03/10/04 01:35 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

ped, i don't see any evidence that an end to suffering, peace, hapiness, goodwill or that there is a problem to approach pragatically.
i personally believe every person choosen thier own mind, so anyone who isn't fully into the peace and harmony stuff doesn't really have a problem, they just don't believe in it.


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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: the non-nessity of love/correct spelling [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2413170 - 03/10/04 01:36 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

wow i'm high by the way.


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