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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Why Lucifer is a Symbol of Enlightenment [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #24008379 - 01/13/17 10:33 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

yet another manifestation of the ego.

it's all borne of the same source. there's no reconciling everything into one worldview, it's just not gonna happen.


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Why Lucifer is a Symbol of Enlightenment [Re: akira_akuma]
    #24008423 - 01/13/17 11:04 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Do you find any meaning in the ancient phrase, "You are your own worst enemy"?

People describe inner conflict in a myriad of ways and words. 

I'm not looking for one worldview. That's someone else's job.


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Offlineviktor
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Re: Why Lucifer is a Symbol of Enlightenment [Re: akira_akuma] * 1
    #24008525 - 01/13/17 11:57 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
but yeah, the cross...also relatively Prometheus-like, as it's essentially the sign of "the light-bearer", ie, two sticks make fire, and fire is the light.




This is an interesting point, I will have to meditate on it.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

Sobriety Bias Syndrome is the tendency for people to erroneously assume that, if there are two competing perceptions of reality, the one that was arrived at while sober must necessarily be the correct one.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Why Lucifer is a Symbol of Enlightenment [Re: viktor] * 1
    #24008569 - 01/14/17 12:32 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

when considering prometheus rising, yanno, ice can make fire?  like literally, it acts as a lens for the sun, watch that film The Edge......

if you haven't, this is a spoiler




metaphorically though :strokebeard:


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Re: Why Lucifer is a Symbol of Enlightenment [Re: viktor] * 1
    #24008836 - 01/14/17 04:03 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Set taking an eye from Horus, now there's a symbol of enlightenment. Symbols aren't for the enlightened, symbols are for seekers. :bobdobbs:


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Why Lucifer is a Symbol of Enlightenment [Re: Middleman]
    #24008866 - 01/14/17 04:26 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

enlightened people need not persist in their aims to influence people.


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OfflineMalkuthian
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Re: Why Lucifer is a Symbol of Enlightenment [Re: viktor]
    #24008918 - 01/14/17 05:41 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
When everything is in a state of perfect order, nothing can ever change or go forwards, and this is tantamount to death for anyone who is not afraid of the feminine principle in her manifestation as chaos.

Therefore, as fallen angel, Lucifer most fairly represents someone who rejected the sterile purity and bubble-wrapped certainty of Heaven for the brutal, wild-eyed insanity of the World.





As I see it Lucifer rejected the concept of being a follower. He refused to act as a sheep in gods herd, and for this he was punished.

The christian faith is centered around the concept of following (As opposed to making your own decisions). Basically "gods way or the highway". Lucifer advocated the idea to think for yourself and this idea was not accepted by god. God demands you follow his lead. Lucifer did not and was therefor cast out.

God also forbade Adam and Eve to eat of the fruit. The fruit is a symbol of knowledge and also of the fall of man, because the two are one and the same in gods eyes; knowledge will be mans fall. The snake on the other hand wanted them to eat the fruit, because he believes in knowledge; in thinking for yourself.

The concept of Christianity is that of mindless following, it explicitly praises this. Lucifer is the antagonist rejecting this concept.

When portrayed like this it's feels obvious that Christianity is shit, basically. But there is one good point in gods idea of following here: to think for yourself in this context translates to "act in your own interest" (egocentricity), as opposed to acting for the good of the many. Lucifer's light is of a personal nature, it's not necessarily the best solution for the flock.

But who want to be a part of the flock anyways?
Said the ones ensnared by Lucifer.


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OfflineLRG
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Re: Why Lucifer is a Symbol of Enlightenment [Re: Malkuthian]
    #24009462 - 01/14/17 10:40 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

"The concept of Christianity is that of mindless following, it explicitly praises this. Lucifer is the antagonist rejecting this concept."

What about the joke with the man on a roof with a flood coming along. Gets multiple attempts to be saved, but refuses. God gave him a warning, a boat, and a helicopter, but the man refused all the help saying "God will save me." Gets to Heaven and asks God why He let him die... God says "I gave you an early warning , a boat, and a helicopter."

Well known joke, but is the perfect lesson for people who follow blindly.

"Let them alone; they are blind guides. And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.” Matthew 15:14

Many pieces of scripture talk against being "blind" but to have an "open mind."


--------------------
"I found it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay… small acts of kindness and love.” - Gandalf The Grey.

"It is the mark of an educated mind to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle

"I like to think of Jesus like with giant eagle's wings, and singin' lead vocals for Lynyrd Skynyrd with like an angel band and I'm in the front row and I'm HAMMERED DRUNK!" - Cal Naughton Jr. AKA The Magic Man. Abracadabra homes!

"Each tear is a drop of poison released." - Anonymous

"Could it be you're afraid of what your friends might say if they knew you believe in God above? They should realize before they criticize that God is the only way to Love."


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OfflineMalkuthian
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Re: Why Lucifer is a Symbol of Enlightenment [Re: LRG]
    #24009470 - 01/14/17 10:43 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

LRG said:
"Let them alone; they are blind guides. And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.” Matthew 15:14

Many pieces of scripture talk against being "blind" but to have an "open mind."




"People are blind, hence they need god to lead them". What a cynical bastard. But hey, so am I. People do need a leader...

An open mind to gods "mysterious ways"? :wink:


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OfflineLucisM
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Re: Why Lucifer is a Symbol of Enlightenment [Re: Malkuthian] * 1
    #24009618 - 01/14/17 11:40 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

If there is a god, then all things which are that beings creations, are its mouthpiece, so even things which come off as being associated with spiritual darkness, can lead people to the light, and I believe it's all how we interact with these things, which dictate the outcome their influence will have on our lives. 

It only makes sense to me that an all loving god, if that thing exists, would influence life to be this way, all water (life) flowing from, and back to the source, some water passes through rougher routes, some easier routes, both lessons learned from each route is just as beneficial to mankind.

If we view some symbols, gods, whatever as good and bad, then we open ourselves up to be plagued by the ones we view as bad, and that can have a negative impact on our psyche.

I like this quote of Jung's.

"If one approaches the unconscious, it loses its dangerous aspect, and what has been entirely negative becomes positive.  One sees that from dreams.  One often has dreams which seem destructive and evil, the thing one cannot accept, but is merely due to the fact that ones conscious attitude is wrong.  If one says "It seems quite black, but perhaps I must accept it", instantly the thing changes colors, it becomes compatible with consciousness"

-Jung


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OfflineMalkuthian
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Re: Why Lucifer is a Symbol of Enlightenment [Re: Lucis]
    #24009864 - 01/14/17 01:52 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

In my view the discussion regards concepts defined by humans. The texts discussed are written by humans and they represent different ideological and philosophical views. Whether there is a god or not does not affect the symbolic values of these concepts.

It's from this viewpoint my posts are written at least.
The faith described by humans means to say that they find following the idea of a omnipotent leader the ultimate goal, hence rejecting individualistic perspectives.


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OfflineMalkuthian
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Re: Why Lucifer is a Symbol of Enlightenment [Re: viktor] * 1
    #24009881 - 01/14/17 02:00 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
[...] He represents the masculine light of consciousness [...]




The masculinity part reminds me of the Swedish author Per Faxneld:

Quote:

Summary
According to the Bible, Eve was the first to heed Satan’s advice to eat of the forbidden fruit. The notion of woman as the Devil’s accomplice is prominent throughout the history of Christianity. During the nineteenth century, rebellious females performed counter-readings of this misogynist tradition. Hereby, Lucifer was reconceptualised as a feminist liberator of womankind, and Eve became a heroine. In these reimaginings, Satan is an ally in the struggle against a patriarchy supported by God the Father and his male priests.



From his book Satanic feminism: Lucifer as the liberator of woman in nineteenth-century culture

Don't be scared of the word feminism in this context, it's makes sense for once, in this historic context.


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Offlineviktor
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Re: Why Lucifer is a Symbol of Enlightenment [Re: Malkuthian]
    #24010094 - 01/14/17 03:37 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Generally I think feminism is a good thing. This was one thing I appreciated about Sweden - the feminism meant that relations between men and women were respectful, in contrast to the horrors you see in Abrahamist cultures.

Then again, I had a belief that Sweden was heavily pagan anyway. Perhaps it was because I lived in Uppsala.

Certainly there is a clear connection between the idea of Satan/Lucifer as opponent or adversary, and him taking a feminist role in contrast to male supremacist religious traditions like the Abrahamist cults.

Possibly Lucifer might appeal to some men in Sweden though who think that feminism has now gone too far?


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

Sobriety Bias Syndrome is the tendency for people to erroneously assume that, if there are two competing perceptions of reality, the one that was arrived at while sober must necessarily be the correct one.


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: Why Lucifer is a Symbol of Enlightenment [Re: viktor] * 1
    #24011240 - 01/15/17 03:02 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Lucifer is the reality we live in..

Light bearer!!

He can destroy Gods with his teeth..

And that takes certain gumption..

The idea of a cross being delivered to Satan for example..

Any Idea at all.. Bears light..thats the information, the substance.. the essence..so what you do or think of..is called Lucifer..

This is in tangent with the Lewlewyn Prophecy..


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Why Lucifer is a Symbol of Enlightenment [Re: viktor]
    #24011331 - 01/15/17 06:07 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Lucifer tries to bind our mind to the material reality.
That's what was promised to be his realm.
The light is the full light of the creator, but Lucifer likes to stand in front of it, casting a shadow on the material realm by substracting away the 'direct' light. All we perceive is indirect light.
Satan proclaims it to be his light, because all the additional light (spirit) is only a blinding or distortion.
And as Satan is still jealous on us humans, he wants to make us unworthy, in g*d's' eye(s), to have(/get back) the dominant power over this material realm called earth.
:fairy:


Edited by BlueCoyote (01/15/17 06:12 AM)


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OfflineLobi
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Re: Why Lucifer is a Symbol of Enlightenment [Re: Lucis]
    #24011784 - 01/15/17 10:24 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Lucifer tries to bind our mind to the material reality.
That's what was promised to be his realm.
The light is the full light of the creator, but Lucifer likes to stand in front of it, casting a shadow on the material realm by substracting away the 'direct' light. All we perceive is indirect light.
Satan proclaims it to be his light, because all the additional light (spirit) is only a blinding or distortion.
And as Satan is still jealous on us humans, he wants to make us unworthy, in g*d's' eye(s), to have(/get back) the dominant power over this material realm called earth.
:fairy:





Quote:

Fennario said:
ourselves up to be plagued by the ones we view as bad, and that can have a negative impact on our psyche.

I like this quote of Jung's.

"If one approaches the unconscious, it loses its dangerous aspect, and what has been entirely negative becomes positive.  One sees that from dreams.  One often has dreams which seem destructive and evil, the thing one cannot accept, but is merely due to the fact that ones conscious attitude is wrong.  If one says "It seems quite black, but perhaps I must accept it", instantly the thing changes colors, it becomes compatible with consciousness"

-Jung





Everything has its polarities and opposites. their is the positive and negative aspects of lucifer. lucifer truly is the world. but through the world man makes or breaks himself, to put it short. The world is the only place where 'the soul is suspended from heaven to contemplate its unreality to be rewarded the supreme gift of self realization.'
lucifer and the snake, the dragon, etc are a great symbol because dragons can kill you. but through conquering the dragon do you reach self realization. the world can devour you and has done so time and time again.. The weighing of the heart against the feather of truth. if fail fed to typhon(embodiment/the world)
through the world do you prove your virtue and capacity for truth. but through the world do you lose all of virtue and capacity as well. it is the polarity that we must choose and are gifted free will to choose.

I dont think any symbolism is fixed. all of these allegories and symbols are different interpretations of the same thing, and will be interpreted differently by each person who contemplates them.
The gnostics showed to believe that when The Grand Architect or The Mind/All/etc thought of the universe, to fashion it, the equivalent exchange or reaction to action through separation of 1 All into multitudes was the bits or fragments of the divine mind being scattered all throughout the universe and being cloaked in shadow. human beings are the bridges to rediscover the divine creator through darkness. eventually moving forward to entire unity again to complete the cycle once all fragments collected together in harmony and unity.. or something along those lines.

I think that our minds reflect the minds of the all. God is as fucked up as we are, all reflections on reality are a reflection of the divine mind, even the inversion of lucifer and the physical world. i think as we struggle to better ourselves and find the answers god is doing the same through us.

But ultimately these higher cycles and machinations are so outside of the human capacity that i dont think we will ever know. we are just a small part of the motion of divinity. :shrug:


--------------------
The bonds and ties of the life we know break easily. But through eternity one bond remains; the bond of fellowship.
The fellowship of atoms,
of star dust in its endless flight, of suns and worlds,  of gods and men.
The clasped hands of comradeship unite in a bond eternal; the fellowship of spirit.

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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Why Lucifer is a Symbol of Enlightenment [Re: BlueCoyote] * 2
    #24012837 - 01/15/17 06:45 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Lucifer tries to bind our mind to the material reality.
That's what was promised to be his realm.
The light is the full light of the creator, but Lucifer likes to stand in front of it, casting a shadow on the material realm by substracting away the 'direct' light. All we perceive is indirect light.
Satan proclaims it to be his light, because all the additional light (spirit) is only a blinding or distortion.
And as Satan is still jealous on us humans, he wants to make us unworthy, in g*d's' eye(s), to have(/get back) the dominant power over this material realm called earth.
:fairy:



Satan =/= Lucifer


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Why Lucifer is a Symbol of Enlightenment [Re: akira_akuma]
    #24015048 - 01/16/17 03:27 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

They are like
Quote:

akira_akuma said:
Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Lucifer tries to bind our mind to the material reality.
That's what was promised to be his realm.
The light is the full light of the creator, but Lucifer likes to stand in front of it, casting a shadow on the material realm by substracting away the 'direct' light. All we perceive is indirect light.
Satan proclaims it to be his light, because all the additional light (spirit) is only a blinding or distortion.
And as Satan is still jealous on us humans, he wants to make us unworthy, in g*d's' eye(s), to have(/get back) the dominant power over this material realm called earth.
:fairy:



Satan =/= Lucifer



They are like twin brothers unifying in one spiritual entity, showing a little different aspects.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Why Lucifer is a Symbol of Enlightenment [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #24015111 - 01/16/17 03:43 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

yeah, i'd say that's about right. two sides of the same coin, kinda deal.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Why Lucifer is a Symbol of Enlightenment [Re: akira_akuma]
    #24015257 - 01/16/17 04:38 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

PS:



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