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InvisibleMagicman69
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Eliminate the income tax * 2
    #24002800 - 01/11/17 11:58 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

I would earn another $800-$1000 a month without the Income Tax. If our Income Tax's were completely eliminated, government would still be able to afford the budget from 2000. Eliminating the income tax would provide a substantial raise to all working Americans. It would also stimulate the economy to new levels.

Ask yourself: What is government currently providing you that it failed to provide in 2000? The bigger government gets, the less money we get to keep. Think about that. The government comes and takes at least 25% of your pay every week by use of force. That's what we fought the revolution over. Government has nothing, all they can do is take and bloat themselves. Can we at least go back to the size of 2000, that would help so many. Someone working two jobs suddenly can work one.


Edited by Magicman69 (01/12/17 12:18 AM)


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Eliminate the income tax [Re: Magicman69]
    #24003304 - 01/12/17 07:43 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

My issue with taxes is mainly how they're spent, a certain amount of taxation is necessary to fund the mitary, infrastructure, educational institutions, healthcare, the judicial system, etc.

There are too many layers of taxation: business tax lowers your salary, income tax lowers your earnings, sales tax lowers the value of your money.


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: Eliminate the income tax [Re: Repertoire89]
    #24003322 - 01/12/17 07:53 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

The US government priovided you with enough resources to invade other countries. I doubt it could do the same today. Bankruptcy is to close to your ass.
If the gov eliminates income tax. How much revenue does the gov no longer collect?


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Offlinespecialpeopleclub
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Re: Eliminate the income tax [Re: Patlal]
    #24003338 - 01/12/17 08:06 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Taxes are thievery, is my position. People in this country are not individualists anymore. We need to pay a central power to ruin our currency, because the government represents us. It is us.

Fuck the government


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Eliminate the income tax [Re: specialpeopleclub] * 3
    #24003373 - 01/12/17 08:28 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
Taxes are thievery, is my position. People in this country are not individualists anymore. We need to pay a central power to ruin our currency, because the government represents us. It is us.

Fuck the government




Well, fuck off then, if you dont want to pay taxes and contribute to society, go back to Africa and live in the bush.


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Offlinespecialpeopleclub
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Re: Eliminate the income tax [Re: Repertoire89]
    #24003384 - 01/12/17 08:33 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

I expected aresponse like at, equating contributing to society as paying your taxes.

Your statement was stupid as fuck. Govement isnt 'society'


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InvisibleGr33nTree73
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Re: Eliminate the income tax [Re: Repertoire89]
    #24003390 - 01/12/17 08:35 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Repertoire89 said:
Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
Taxes are thievery, is my position. People in this country are not individualists anymore. We need to pay a central power to ruin our currency, because the government represents us. It is us.

Fuck the government




Well, fuck off then, if you dont want to pay taxes and contribute to society, go back to Africa and live in the bush.



You sound like one of those people who believes that state lottery profits are still spent on public education...


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Eliminate the income tax [Re: Gr33nTree73]
    #24003403 - 01/12/17 08:40 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Libertarianism is an escapist pipe-dream for those who want an out from responsibility and rational thinking.

Problems with spending need to be addressed, throwing your hands up in the air and making juvenile demands to ending your social obligations isnt helping anyone but those with an interest in the status quo, this childish ideology helps those guys a lot by distracting people from viable options.


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: Eliminate the income tax [Re: Gr33nTree73]
    #24003409 - 01/12/17 08:44 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Humans are selfish creatures.  We're hard-wired to hoard resources. If taxes weren't mandatory, nobody would pay them.  It's not pleasant, but I'm ok with taxes.


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InvisibleGr33nTree73
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Re: Eliminate the income tax [Re: Repertoire89]
    #24003411 - 01/12/17 08:44 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Libertarianism?  Are you sure you're not mixing that up with Anarchism?


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Offlinespecialpeopleclub
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Re: Eliminate the income tax [Re: Gr33nTree73]
    #24003416 - 01/12/17 08:46 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

What stupid liberal nonsense. It isnt about avoiding responsibility. All services are translated by the economic system that came about after mercantilism.

Capitalism isnt an idea that makes sure all do well. Only a liberal would think something so stupid, because their ideas are about using the government to try to circumvent natural economic processes to crate some controlled degree of economic equality

Well maybe movement can't be completely eliminated, it is generally a force for bad.

Taxes are worse then thievery. You may as well toss your money on the street. You'll get about as much out of it.


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Edited by specialpeopleclub (01/12/17 08:48 AM)


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Eliminate the income tax [Re: specialpeopleclub]
    #24003427 - 01/12/17 08:55 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Money isnt going anywhere and taxes arent going anywhere.

All we can do is try and control how our taxes are spent, and good can certainly come from the government, half of everyone I know works for the government in one branch or another and I cant emphasize enough that it does serve a variety of functions.


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Re: Eliminate the income tax [Re: Repertoire89]
    #24003436 - 01/12/17 08:59 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Repertoire89 said:
Money isnt going anywhere and taxes arent going anywhere.

All we can do is try and control how our taxes are spent, and good can certainly come from the government, half of everyone I know works for the government in one branch or another and I cant emphasize enough that it does serve a variety of functions.



First statement is meaningless to the point. Money isnt bad though, in my opinion.

Ya, people working for the government is 'good'

Not seeing what's important at all, such as how itskews pricing and natural economic forces.


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Eliminate the income tax [Re: specialpeopleclub]
    #24003446 - 01/12/17 09:04 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Keeps you from being raped by Muslims

Works on a massive scale to prevent agricultural catastrophes, day in and out, imperative work in our globalized society (not that it wasnt extremely important in the past when people were routinely starving as crops failed)

Prevents ecological mismanagement such as the past total stripping of woodlands from entire states, over grazing, contamination of watersheds, etc

Etc


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Offlinespecialpeopleclub
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Re: Eliminate the income tax [Re: Repertoire89]
    #24003459 - 01/12/17 09:10 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

The government doesn't keep me safe from Muslims. The second amendment would if we started having a problem here.

Does it? I don't know if I accept your generalizations. Government policy is what created the grain based food system we deal with today.

You take these events that haven't happened and credit the government wit having saved us. Just more nonsense. The government does have its disgusting tentacles everywhere though

It shits on everything then people blow its cock because of roads, or something


Edited by specialpeopleclub (01/12/17 09:13 AM)


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InvisibleCookieCrumbsM
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Re: Eliminate the income tax [Re: specialpeopleclub] * 2
    #24003492 - 01/12/17 09:26 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

The only reason one can justify the elimination of income tax is to reference they 14 trillion dollar debt that we will probably not see paid off in our lifetimes no matter how much the govt taxed.

They're reckless spenders that don't care about the value of the American dollar or the burdens of the American people. If they cared about money we wouldn't have half that debt and we wouldn't have so many overlapping government bureaus and Medicare wouldn't allow itself to be overcharged for numerous things and the nations infrastructure would be in MUCH better shape. That shit is going to end up costing us billions because they're failing to maintain and replace them as they should.


So yeah. Get rid of taxes. The government obviously doesn't mind spending imaginary money anyway.


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Eliminate the income tax [Re: specialpeopleclub] * 1
    #24003506 - 01/12/17 09:32 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
The government doesn't keep me safe from Muslims. The second amendment would if we started having a problem here.

Does it? I don't know if I accept your generalizations. Government policy is what created the grain based food system we deal with today.

You take these events that haven't happened and credit the government wit having saved us. Just more nonsense. The government does have its disgusting tentacles everywhere though

It shits on everything then people blow its cock because of roads, or something




You're not worth further discussion.


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InvisiblePrem. Kissoff
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Re: Eliminate the income tax [Re: Magicman69]
    #24003537 - 01/12/17 09:41 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Say you live in L.A. for example.

50+% of your federal taxes go to Pentagon expenses, shake your head and yell no no no all you want, the biggest baddest military ever imagined stationed in 7/10 countries aint cheap.

50% of your local taxes then go to police.

There isnt much juice left after the boys in uniform get their hands on it.

The revenue of the state is the state.  Countries with higher taxes have higher quality of living (a few exceptions exist I know).

Pakistan is a lovely country, low low taxes, strong church presence, check it out maybe.


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Offlinespecialpeopleclub
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Re: Eliminate the income tax [Re: Prem. Kissoff]
    #24003573 - 01/12/17 09:58 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

A lot of these high standard of living countries, like the Scandinavian contries, France, Germany, Japan, are able to have their wasteful governments and high taxes, along with a good standard of living because we keep the peace. Japan, for example, has almost no military.

I haven't looked, but I bet south america tends to have higher Taxes and less free economies


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InvisibleCookieCrumbsM
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Re: Eliminate the income tax [Re: specialpeopleclub]
    #24003626 - 01/12/17 10:14 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

We could have begun transitioning out of Japan for them to rely on their own military over 20 years ago. But we don't really wannt to do that. We're alot happier policing the world than letting the world police itself. It's not the parent government. It's the government that thinks they know best when it comes to everything and insists on sticking its nose where it doesn't belong. Its the soccer helicopter mom that not only tries to keep their child in 13 layers ob bubble wrap while feeding it McDonald's bullshit and isn't satisfied with their own children. That bitch will tell you how to raise your own too. And if you don't listen then she'll bully you into doing what she wants.

And when soccer mom's kids grow up she thinks she's entitled to her childrens success because she controlled them all their lives.


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OnlineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Eliminate the income tax [Re: Patlal]
    #24004058 - 01/12/17 01:13 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
The US government priovided you with enough resources to invade other countries. I doubt it could do the same today. Bankruptcy is to close to your ass.
If the gov eliminates income tax. How much revenue does the gov no longer collect?




I gotta side with Patlal here: the US is in a trillion dollar debt. Not billion, TRILLION.

Gotta pay for the roads and stuff. I just wish the tax from income was broken down on how it was spent: infrastructure, roads, military, government buildings, government employees, power stations, water treatment plants etc etc


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InvisibleZiran
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Re: Eliminate the income tax [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #24004083 - 01/12/17 01:22 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

I've always wondered how you solve the problems of inflation, that is the increase in the supply of money, with more inflation. - Ron Paul

It just seems like the principle amount will always be less than the amount owed.

Principle ≠ Principle + Interest


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Eliminate the income tax [Re: Ziran]
    #24004136 - 01/12/17 01:37 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

The premise of OPs argument is absurd. We can't simply go back to 2000. The reason the budget was smaller and the tax revenue has grown is because the size of the US economy (GDP) has nearly doubled since 2000.


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Re: Eliminate the income tax [Re: koods]
    #24004155 - 01/12/17 01:41 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

The amount of federal tax revenue vs. GDP is actually lower now than it was in 2000.


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NotSheekle said
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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Eliminate the income tax [Re: koods]
    #24004159 - 01/12/17 01:42 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

The US dollar has lost a lot of value to inflation over that time as well. $1 in 2000 dollars = $1.40 in 2016 dollars.

http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/


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OnlineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Eliminate the income tax [Re: psi]
    #24004164 - 01/12/17 01:44 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

What causes inflation?

Is it simply time?


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Re: Eliminate the income tax [Re: psi]
    #24004173 - 01/12/17 01:48 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

That is irrelevant since all this data is measured in dollars the amount of inflation is cancelled out. 

And in terms of inflation, a 40% change in value over 16 years is very low. Historically low and historically stable.


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Eliminate the income tax [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #24004185 - 01/12/17 01:54 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
What causes inflation?

Is it simply time?



It's caused by printing more money basically. It's an intentional policy decision. If you can stuff your money under your bed and it will maintain its value indefinitely, there isn't as much incentive to invest it back into the economy.

If you buy gold or something and stuff that under your bed, even if it just maintains its buying power you will have made a "profit" on it when you sell it, and you're supposed to pay income tax on that.


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Eliminate the income tax [Re: koods]
    #24004194 - 01/12/17 01:55 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

koods said:
That is irrelevant since all this data is measured in dollars the amount of inflation is cancelled out. 




All what data? Did someone post some data?


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Re: Eliminate the income tax [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #24004201 - 01/12/17 01:58 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
What causes inflation?

Is it simply time?




Pretty much. Without inflation, money has no time value. You could loan someone $1000 bucks and no matter how long they kept it they would still only owe you $1000 - how would a lender make any money off that kind of business. A credit market requires some kind of time value, so that the borrower pays something for using that money and how ling they keep it.

inflation is natural and good when it is stable and reasonable, let's say between (1 and 7%). Below 1% the incentive to loan money is not strong enough to enable a healthy credit market. Just imagine what negative inflation would look like: the person who lends money would owe interest to the borrower. That's is a crazy scenario.

But, the fundamental reason there is inflation is the upward force of trying to get as much money out of a product or service as possible. You sell something for a while and people get used to a price, then you try to get another ten cents out if it and this repeats over and over.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Eliminate the income tax [Re: psi]
    #24004207 - 01/12/17 01:59 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

psi said:
Quote:

koods said:
That is irrelevant since all this data is measured in dollars the amount of inflation is cancelled out. 




All what data? Did someone post some data?



Tax revenue, GDP, etc are measured in dollars so comparing one year to another, the amount of inflation is irrelevant.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Re: Eliminate the income tax [Re: koods]
    #24004211 - 01/12/17 02:01 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Measured in today's dollars?


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Re: Eliminate the income tax [Re: psi] * 1
    #24004219 - 01/12/17 02:04 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

psi said:
Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
What causes inflation?

Is it simply time?



It's caused by printing more money basically. It's an intentional policy decision. If you can stuff your money under your bed and it will maintain its value indefinitely, there isn't as much incentive to invest it back into the economy.

If you buy gold or something and stuff that under your bed, even if it just maintains its buying power you will have made a "profit" on it when you sell it, and you're supposed to pay income tax on that.



Printing more money has very little to do with inflation. A very small portion of the total amount of wealth valued in US dollars exists as a actual currency. It exists in ledger books and physical property.

People claimed that Obama would tank the dollar because of quantitative easing and firing up the printing press back during the financial crisis. Well, the dollar has been more stable during those eight years than just about any time in us history. People just don't understand economics very well.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


Edited by koods (01/12/17 02:08 PM)


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Re: Eliminate the income tax [Re: psi]
    #24004225 - 01/12/17 02:06 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

psi said:
Measured in today's dollars?



GDP in 2000 and tax revenue in 2000 are in 2000 dollars. GDP in 2016 and tax revenue in 2016 are in 2016 dollars. Apples to apples.


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NotSheekle said
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Re: Eliminate the income tax [Re: Magicman69]
    #24004236 - 01/12/17 02:07 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

lol good luck with that op


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Re: Eliminate the income tax [Re: psi]
    #24004237 - 01/12/17 02:07 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

For example, if federal government spending in 2000 was X in 2000's dollars, and spending in 2016 was 1.4 * X in 2016, real spending would actually have been the same. This is relevant to the OP's question "what more are you getting from the government now vs then?"


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Re: Eliminate the income tax [Re: koods]
    #24004245 - 01/12/17 02:11 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

psi said:
Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
What causes inflation?

Is it simply time?



It's caused by printing more money basically. It's an intentional policy decision. If you can stuff your money under your bed and it will maintain its value indefinitely, there isn't as much incentive to invest it back into the economy.

If you buy gold or something and stuff that under your bed, even if it just maintains its buying power you will have made a "profit" on it when you sell it, and you're supposed to pay income tax on that.



Printing more money has very little to do with inflation. A very small portion of the total amount of wealth valued in US dollars exists as a actual currency. It exists in ledger books and physical property.



By "basically" I meant "in a loose sense". I'm not just talking about actual bank notes being cranked out. How would things be different if the money supply could not be increased?


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Re: Eliminate the income tax [Re: psi]
    #24004262 - 01/12/17 02:18 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Well if you compare tax revenue to percent of GDP, revenue has actually dropped since 2000 (ie, GDP growth is larger than revenue growth). Spending growth is slightly faster than GDP growth, but not by much, and much of that occurred during the beginning of buses and Obama's terms. Spending growth in the past 6 years is far slower than GDP growth.

And I forgot to mention the main inflationary pressure in a healthy is low unemployment. Once you get around 4.5% unemployment, you move from a not enough jobs to not enough labor. When companies cannot find workers to fill positions, they have to raise wages. Higher wages mean higher costs, and higher prices. The federal reserve sets interest rates, and when unemployment gets too low, they increase the rate to slow the economy. unemployment rates below 2% can create runaway inflation.


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NotSheekle said
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Re: Eliminate the income tax [Re: koods]
    #24004263 - 01/12/17 02:19 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

psi said:
Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
What causes inflation?

Is it simply time?



It's caused by printing more money basically. It's an intentional policy decision. If you can stuff your money under your bed and it will maintain its value indefinitely, there isn't as much incentive to invest it back into the economy.

If you buy gold or something and stuff that under your bed, even if it just maintains its buying power you will have made a "profit" on it when you sell it, and you're supposed to pay income tax on that.



Printing more money has very little to do with inflation. A very small portion of the total amount of wealth valued in US dollars exists as a actual currency. It exists in ledger books and physical property.

People claimed that Obama would tank the dollar because of quantitative easing and firing up the printing press back during the financial crisis. Well, the dollar has been more stable during those eight years than just about any time in us history. People just don't understand economics very well.



I think you mean 'interest', not inflation


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Re: Eliminate the income tax [Re: psi]
    #24004286 - 01/12/17 02:25 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

psi said:
Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

psi said:
Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
What causes inflation?

Is it simply time?



It's caused by printing more money basically. It's an intentional policy decision. If you can stuff your money under your bed and it will maintain its value indefinitely, there isn't as much incentive to invest it back into the economy.

If you buy gold or something and stuff that under your bed, even if it just maintains its buying power you will have made a "profit" on it when you sell it, and you're supposed to pay income tax on that.



Printing more money has very little to do with inflation. A very small portion of the total amount of wealth valued in US dollars exists as a actual currency. It exists in ledger books and physical property.



By "basically" I meant "in a loose sense". I'm not just talking about actual bank notes being cranked out. How would things be different if the money supply could not be increased?



If you didn't increase the money supply, then you have negative inflation: the same amount of money but increased value of the things that money represents means the money is more valuable. That is a very bad thing, as explained before. It means cash stored under a bed gains value. People stop spending.

Money supply increases naturally however. If you spend $100,000 to build a house, then sell the house for $200,000, you have just created $100,000 out of thin air. On a ledger book, that money now exists and it is real - you can convert it to actual cash.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Re: Eliminate the income tax [Re: specialpeopleclub]
    #24004332 - 01/12/17 02:38 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

psi said:
Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
What causes inflation?

Is it simply time?



It's caused by printing more money basically. It's an intentional policy decision. If you can stuff your money under your bed and it will maintain its value indefinitely, there isn't as much incentive to invest it back into the economy.

If you buy gold or something and stuff that under your bed, even if it just maintains its buying power you will have made a "profit" on it when you sell it, and you're supposed to pay income tax on that.



Printing more money has very little to do with inflation. A very small portion of the total amount of wealth valued in US dollars exists as a actual currency. It exists in ledger books and physical property.

People claimed that Obama would tank the dollar because of quantitative easing and firing up the printing press back during the financial crisis. Well, the dollar has been more stable during those eight years than just about any time in us history. People just don't understand economics very well.



I think you mean 'interest', not inflation




Interest rates represent the time cost of money. If interest rates are below inflation rates then inflation can get out of control. Interest rates above inflation rates tends to reduce inflation (high interest makes credit expense and this reduces economic growth, which suppresses inflation). if interest rates track inflation rates perfectly, then essentially lenders don't make any money on a loan. So, interest rates are generally a bit higher than inflation rates. You can think of interest rates as the cost of money over time, while inflation rates are the value of money over time. If cost is the same as value, then there is no profit.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


Edited by koods (01/12/17 02:42 PM)


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Re: Eliminate the income tax [Re: koods]
    #24004368 - 01/12/17 02:47 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

My point is that inflation is a naturally occurring phenomenon of an economy, while interest rates are a fabricated value - they are based on costs and other real values, but the actual rate is set by someone saying what the rate is.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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