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Invisibletoad857
President of theUnited States

Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 283
drug dogs & probable cause
    #2400244 - 03/03/04 10:12 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

when you get pulled over by a cop (for speeding, for example)he generally asks 'do you know how fast you were going' or something similar..
then they will many times ask 'do you have any illegal substances, drugs etc in the car?' naturally, all of us law abiding citizens say 'of course not' and the cop replies: "then you wouldnt mind if i searched your car, would you?"
of course, we have the right to say NO (which we do) and the cop is not allowed to search without a warrent. here is my question:

after this point im afraid that the cop will then threaten to get a K-9 unit and sniff from the outside of the car. if the dog then smells something illegal the cop then has probable cause and can search.

is this possible?? can a cop have a k9 unit sniff the outside of the car wihout probable cause? this seems like it should be technically considered a warentless search--yet i have heard of this happening. am i crazy? is anyone still reading this?

is it possible that a similar dog-search could be conducted on a person walking down the street? thanky


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Offlinephi1618
old hand

Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 4,102
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
Re: drug dogs & probable cause [Re: toad857]
    #2400263 - 03/03/04 10:18 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

There is probable cause and reasonable suspicion.
Cops need reasonable suspicion to detain you for the time necessary to use a drug dog.
What qualifies as reasonable suspicion?
Beats me.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 10 months, 21 days
Re: drug dogs & probable cause [Re: toad857]
    #2400312 - 03/03/04 10:31 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

This is one of the best questions I've heard in a long time. DO NOT RELY ON ANYTHING ANYONE HERE SAYS. Ask a lawyer, not a peckerhead.


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Offlinephi1618
old hand

Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 4,102
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Re: drug dogs & probable cause [Re: toad857]
    #2400372 - 03/03/04 10:54 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

here is a related case, from the North carolina court of appeals:
http://www.aoc.state.nc.us/www/public/coa/opinions/2004/030350-1.htm

In this case, a woman with a prior drug record was pulled over and presented a duplacate license. While her credentials were being checked, a drug dog was run around her car and alerted.
Her conviction was overturned on the grounds that the police did not have reasonable suspicion.

The US supreme court has ruled that:
A]n investigative detention must be temporary and last no longer than is necessary to effectuate the purpose of the stop. Similarly, the investigative methods employed should be the least intrusive means reasonably available to verify or dispel the officer's suspicion in a short period of time. . . . It is the State's burden to demonstrate that the seizure it seeks to justify on the basis of a reasonable suspicion was sufficiently limited in scope and duration to satisfy the conditions of an investigative seizure.
Florida v. Royer, 460 U.S. 491, 501, 75 L. Ed. 2d 229, 238 (1983)

The US 11th court of appeals has ruled that police may not detain a person until a drug dog arives unless they have reasonable suspicion that a crime has been commited:
http://www.ca11.uscourts.gov/opinions/ops/200215183.pdf

Long story short, a cop has to have "reasonable suspicion", not probable cause, to run a drug dog around your car, or to detain you beyond the time necessary to "effectuate the purpose of the stop". The time taken to check your credentials can NOT be used to run a drug dog around your car.
I don't know about cases of consentual contact: ie. if the cop says "Do you mind if I talk to you for a second" or something equivalant, Just Say No, because you may give up some of your rights.

This doesn't deal specifically with drug dogs, but is generally good:
http://www.aclu.org/PolicePractices/PolicePractices.cfm?ID=9609&c=25


In spite of the above, a police officer may not be aware of recent court rulings, or might not care.
Also,
I Am Not A Lawyer


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Offlinephi1618
old hand

Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 4,102
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Re: drug dogs & probable cause [Re: toad857]
    #2400415 - 03/03/04 11:05 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

here is something else of use. It's been posted before, in security and safety, but it's good, and the current version is now locked away and out of the google cache.
Apprehending the drug trafficer:
http://web.archive.org/web/20030621235140/http://www.drugbeat.com/members/apprehending/


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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
addict
Registered: 01/04/04
Posts: 470
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
Re: drug dogs & probable cause [Re: toad857]
    #2401964 - 03/04/04 11:41 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

toad857 said:
after this point im afraid that the cop will then threaten to get a K-9 unit and sniff from the outside of the car. if the dog then smells something illegal the cop then has probable cause and can search.




In alot of states they can't detain you for a K-9 search any longer than a traffic ticket would take. Meaning that they can't call a k-9 from 20 minutes away and make you sit there for it. The best thing to do, sicne cops seem to not care about laws, is to just say "I'm in a real big hurry, sorry, I have to get home". If it's late at night the "Im really tired" works great. One time I was pulled over (carrying an oz or so of super skiny reefer in the back seat) and the cop asked if he could search (he couldnt' smell the pot, of course, or he'd have had probable cause). I told him that I was in a hurry, and he said it would only take "2 seconds". I said "are oyu sure it won't be longe rthan that?" in a jest-ful tone, he said "I guarantee it". I sad "Ok" and got out of the car. He looked inside, I counted aloud to "2" and say "Ok, I am now going to rescend my permission for you to serach my vehicle, your time is up, you said you'd be happy if you searched it, and younamed the time, I really have to go now". HE could tell that I knew my rights, he did the "What are you trying to hide?" routine, I told him that every male in my family had served in the military and protected the constitution, so I didn't think that it was in AMerica's best interest to just give up the rights that my family had fought so hard to preserve. I was on my way within a minute :-)
Quote:


is this possible?? can a cop have a k9 unit sniff the outside of the car wihout probable cause? this seems like it should be technically considered a warentless search--yet i have heard of this happening. am i crazy? is anyone still reading this?




It happened to a friend, the biggest thing is that you NEVER CONCENT. If they say that they are getting a k-9 unit, say that you are in a big hurry, mention that you know itll take longer than a regular traffic stop (just so you can let him know that you know the score). If you give your concent, remember that you can rescind that concent at any time. Alot of juristictions have a "concent to search form" that they make you sign, NEVER EVER EVER SIGN THAT.
Quote:


is it possible that a similar dog-search could be conducted on a person walking down the street? thanky



I think that it was ruled that those types of 'searches' are illegal. If you do get caught, you can ask for a copy of the dog's service book from the police. A person around here was arrested because a drug dog signaled (after he'd given concent), but it was later proven that the dog was only right about 1 in 10 times, so the judge dropped the charges, saying 10% wasn't enough for probable cause.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: drug dogs & probable cause [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2402122 - 03/04/04 12:27 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I would also suggest that you get out of the car. I spoke to a cop friend some time ago and he told me that the police have the right to search any "lungable" object if you are still in the car. That means anything within reach. Just remember, be polite and deny a search, even if your not holding. If they insist and the search comes up clean, make sure everybody in the world knows an apology isn't enough. And I don't think refusing the police a search constitutes reasonable suspicion.


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Invisibletoad857
President of theUnited States

Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 283
Re: drug dogs & probable cause [Re: toad857]
    #2402161 - 03/04/04 12:34 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

thanks for the great info!


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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
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Registered: 01/04/04
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Re: drug dogs & probable cause [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2402293 - 03/04/04 01:00 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I would also suggest that you get out of the car. I spoke to a cop friend some time ago and he told me that the police have the right to search any "lungable" object if you are still in the car.




Yea, they can do a "Weapons search" on anyone that they are talking to, without probable cause or suspiscion. Fucked ^
Quote:


Just remember, be polite and deny a search, even if your not holding. If they insist and the search comes up clean, make sure everybody in the world knows an apology isn't enough. And I don't think refusing the police a search constitutes reasonable suspicion.



Exactly! I've heard of people who were getting hassled becuase of bloodshot eyes (they were stoned, but not carrying anything), the cop pushed it, searched without concent, he said that he "smelled marijuana", but didn't find any. Needless to say, the people made his life miserable. The thing ya have to remember is how badly you can fuck with the cops back. Letters to the editor, things like that, I've personally gotten 2 policemen fired for trespassing on my property and then, when I challeneged them (and had a firearm) they acted as if I was letting off rounds at them. I told them that they'd really fcking regret aiming a gun at me, and now, they probably do. Don't ever be afraid to do anything you can to fuck with cops, talk with your senator, anything at all.

The BEST way to deal with cops is to do what I do, get your EMT certification and become a firefighter/EMT. I now know most local cops by name, and they know that I'm a "responsible citizen" because I'm constnatly on the scene of accidents and fires. Always helps when you know the guy pulling ya over by his first name, and ya can have something to talk about.

Best advice, don't act suspiscious. Don't give up too much information, don't seem smug, just be another guy hes pulling over, one of the majority of people that he pulls over, spends 10 minutes dealing with total, and is back on the road. IonicBreeze for your car kicks ass, no reefer-y smell.

Another note while we are talking about cops, if you getp ulled over and you have a firearm on your person (licensed of course), you need to let them know FIRST THING. I got pulled over in my home state, but about 150 miles from home, and I was carrying my .45 in the small of my back. He came up to the window and I had both hands on the wheel, he asked for my ID and I told him I was carrying and that I didnt' want to reach back there and have him think I was going to draw on him. He said "thank you", had me hop out of the car with hands in view, took the firearm, popped the clip and the spare round ,set it on the top of my truck, asked for my permit and my license (Driving), and it didnt' add bud 40 seconds on to the entire experience. If you do admit to carrying a firearm, cops CAN frisk you, s oit's not a good idea to pack guns and drugs. If you don't have your permit, keep your gun in the trunk, locked up, unloaded and don't mention it to them. In most states, possession of drugs + a firearm constiutes the felony charge "possession of a firearm while commiting a misdeameanor" or some such horseshit. Good luck out there.


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OfflineLearyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
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Posts: 29,991
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Re: drug dogs & probable cause [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2402380 - 03/04/04 01:16 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I've personally gotten 2 policemen fired for trespassing on my property 




:thumbup:

Good info one and all. Threads like these are important. I would have been caught with speed and weed once if it hadn't been for The Shroomery.






--------------------
--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month: Park Avenue Playground - The Trip



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InvisibleDoctorJ
Stranger
 Arcade Champion: Frogger

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,451
Loc: space
Re: drug dogs & probable cause [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2402408 - 03/04/04 01:24 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The thing ya have to remember is how badly you can fuck with the cops back. Letters to the editor, things like that, I've personally gotten 2 policemen fired for trespassing on my property




I always make a point to let them know that I'm taking note of their badge number.  Just in case, of course :wink:

EDIT: 
Not only can you file a complaint with a cop's badge number, but, if you know the right people, you can also find out where they live and which school their children attend.  Just FYI for any cops who may be reading...  :biggrin:


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peace, pot, and microdot!


Edited by DoctorJ (03/04/04 01:42 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 10 months, 21 days
Re: drug dogs & probable cause [Re: Learyfan]
    #2402409 - 03/04/04 01:24 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Love the picture man. I used to (30 years ago, jesus I'm old) have a web belt, like the boy scout belts, that the buckle was like the small Bambu paper thing. It opened up and a pack of Bambu fit perfectly. Can't remember what happened to it. Funny what pot will do to your memory.


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Invisibletoad857
President of theUnited States

Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 283
Re: drug dogs & probable cause [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2403249 - 03/04/04 05:05 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


Yea, they can do a "Weapons search" on anyone that they are talking to, without probable cause or suspiscion. Fucked ^






this is true.. but ive read that if they feel something (like a bag of weed) in your pocket which is obviously not a weapon, all they can do is ask you to show it to them--which you don't have to. they can only force you to take it out if it is a weapon.

so, when a cop asks you to empty your pockets (when he doesnt have a warrent or probable cause) you have the right to say no, correct?


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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
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Registered: 01/04/04
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Re: drug dogs & probable cause [Re: toad857]
    #2407823 - 03/08/04 06:05 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

toad857 said:
this is true.. but ive read that if they feel something (like a bag of weed) in your pocket which is obviously not a weapon, all they can do is ask you to show it to them--which you don't have to. they can only force you to take it out if it is a weapon.




If they are in the process of searching for a weapon and feel, say, a pipe or some other questionable object, they then have probable cause to determine what it is that you are holding.
Quote:


so, when a cop asks you to empty your pockets (when he doesnt have a warrent or probable cause) you have the right to say no, correct?



I'm not sure, it's always best to never admit to a crime, and always let them know that you are in a hurry and don't have time for it. The "dad in the hospital" could work, unless you are close enough that he can follow ya. Good luck.


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InvisibleZippoZM
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Registered: 06/17/03
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Re: drug dogs & probable cause [Re: toad857]
    #2411477 - 03/09/04 04:13 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

"and the cop asked if he could search (he couldnt' smell the pot, of course, or he'd have had probable cause)."

i dont think this is true.
i was driving through kentucky about a week ago and was pulled over for going 90mph.

the second question that the officer asked was "wheres the marijuana"

he made me and my 2 passengers get out of the car and empty our pockets on the hood, which we did.

he then asked us if there was any weed on us or in the car and we said no.

IT really did stink like weed, really badly and we all knew it, but he asked me for permission to search my car atleast 8 times, which i waid no to each time, on the grounds that i had a long drive ahead of me.

anyways my 2 friends let him search their bags, nothing was found.

he then proceded to open my glove box and root around, and then let us go

i dont think from this expierence that the smell alone is probable cause for a search


--------------------
PEACE

:mushroom2:zippoz:mushroom2:



"in times of widespread chaos and confusion, it has been the duty of more advanced human beings - artists, scientists, clowns, and philosophers - to create order. In such times as ours however, when there is too much order, too much m management, too much programming and control, it becomes the duty of superior men and women and women to fling their favorite monkey wrenches into the machinery. To relieve the repression of the human spirit, they must sow doubt and disruption"

"People do it every day, they talk to themselves ... they see themselves as they'd like to be, they don't have the courage you have, to just run with it."


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: drug dogs & probable cause [Re: ZippoZ]
    #2411493 - 03/09/04 04:17 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

The smell of pot smoke is definitely enough. You got lucky. In Kentucky no less! With out of state plates?


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