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OfflinePatlal
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Is mathematics invented or discovered? * 2
    #24001882 - 01/11/17 05:58 PM (7 years, 19 days ago)

Me again. just dropping by with my new problem I have. Is math invented or discovered? I'm pretty much 50/50 and I can't pick a winner...

Invent
Quote:

verb (used with object)

1.
to originate or create as a product of one's own ingenuity, experimentation, or contrivance:
to invent the telegraph.

2.
to produce or create with the imagination:
to invent a story.

3.
to make up or fabricate (something fictitious or false):
to invent excuses.





Discover

Quote:


1.
to see, get knowledge of, learn of, find, or find out; gain sight or knowledge of (something previously unseen or unknown):
to discover America; to discover electricity.
Synonyms: detect, espy, descry, discern, ascertain, unearth, ferret out, notice.

2.
to notice or realize:
I discovered I didn't have my credit card with me when I went to pay my bill.

3.
Archaic. to make known; reveal; disclose.




So which is it?

These 6 definition all describe mathematics...

We make them up, but is was also one more thing to discover.

Discuss
Is Mathematics invented or discovered?
You may choose only one


Votes accepted from (01/11/17 03:58 PM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



--------------------


Edited by Patlal (01/11/17 06:10 PM)


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Posts: 21,773
Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: Patlal] * 6
    #24001903 - 01/11/17 06:05 PM (7 years, 19 days ago)

Discovered, the same with language in general, math is an extension of language, which is a further development of all forms of communication down to the basic atomic impulses. Math is a continuation of thought and raw consciousness itself.


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Invisibleluvdemboomers
loner with a boner
Registered: 01/11/13
Posts: 5,054
Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: Repertoire89]
    #24001935 - 01/11/17 06:13 PM (7 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

Repertoire89 said:
Discovered, the same with language in general, math is an extension of language, which is a further development of all forms of communication down to the basic atomic impulses. Math is a continuation of thought and raw consciousness itself.



Couldn't have said it better


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InvisibleT-Funkadelic
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: luvdemboomers]
    #24001985 - 01/11/17 06:27 PM (7 years, 19 days ago)

Discovered, I've always noticed math hidden in mother nature in plain sight.


--------------------


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OfflineShroomslip
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: Patlal] * 1
    #24001995 - 01/11/17 06:30 PM (7 years, 19 days ago)

Math exists everywhere in the universe. The names, symbols, words etc we use to describe it may be created by us, but the principles they're based on are constant regardless of language or beings intelligent enough to name it.


--------------------
With my face against the floor I can’t see who knocked me out of the way.
I don’t want to get back up but I have to so it might as well be today.
Nothing appeals to me no one feels like me, I’m too busy being calm to disappear.
I’m in no shape to be alone contrary to the shit that you might hear.


You can't wake up, this is not a dream. You're part of a machine, you are not a human being
With your face all made up, living on a screen. Low on self esteem, so you run on gasoline


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Invisibletrees
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: T-Funkadelic]
    #24001996 - 01/11/17 06:30 PM (7 years, 19 days ago)

Yeah, but meaning is also invented upon discovery, something like that. It's both discovered and invented at the same time


--------------------


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InvisibleMagicMush123
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: trees]
    #24002087 - 01/11/17 06:50 PM (7 years, 19 days ago)

Its the same as science.. you wouldn't say someone invented science but discovered it. Math is a discovery


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InvisibleBill_Oreilly
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Registered: 11/12/11
Posts: 26,370
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: Patlal]
    #24002112 - 01/11/17 06:59 PM (7 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Me again. just dropping by with my new problem I have. Is math invented or discovered? I'm pretty much 50/50 and I can't pick a winner...

Invent
Quote:

verb (used with object)

1.
to originate or create as a product of one's own ingenuity, experimentation, or contrivance:
to invent the telegraph.

2.
to produce or create with the imagination:
to invent a story.

3.
to make up or fabricate (something fictitious or false):
to invent excuses.





Discover

Quote:


1.
to see, get knowledge of, learn of, find, or find out; gain sight or knowledge of (something previously unseen or unknown):
to discover America; to discover electricity.
Synonyms: detect, espy, descry, discern, ascertain, unearth, ferret out, notice.

2.
to notice or realize:
I discovered I didn't have my credit card with me when I went to pay my bill.

3.
Archaic. to make known; reveal; disclose.




So which is it?

These 6 definition all describe mathematics...

We make them up, but is was also one more thing to discover.

Discuss






Invented


--------------------
Something there is mysteriously formed,
Existing before Heaven and Earth,
Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging,
All-pervading, unfailing,
I do not know its name; I call it tao.
If forced to give it a name, I call it
Great (ta). Being great, it flows out;
Flowing out means far-reaching;
Being far-reaching, it is said to return.


It's just a shot away..


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InvisibleSARAtonin
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
    #24002137 - 01/11/17 07:12 PM (7 years, 19 days ago)

Math is universal and predates organic life; it was discovered, saying it was invented is akin to saying we invented fire.


--------------------
God kills indiscriminately and so shall we. For no creatures under God are as we are none so like him as ourselves.

Want to join a cult? Click for details…


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InvisibleCaine
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: SARAtonin] * 5
    #24002141 - 01/11/17 07:14 PM (7 years, 19 days ago)

It's invented, math is an inherently imperfect model created by humans to describe physical circumstances :shrug:


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: Caine] * 1
    #24002158 - 01/11/17 07:23 PM (7 years, 19 days ago)

Yeah the abstractions are invented, and any correspondence to the physical world is discovered.


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: Patlal] * 1
    #24002176 - 01/11/17 07:30 PM (7 years, 19 days ago)

If u believe in God, math is discovered.

If u dont believe in God, math is invented.

Yer welcome.
:awethumb:


--------------------
"What you must understand is that your physical dimension affects everyone in the higher dimensions as well. All things are interconnected. All things are One. Therefore, if one dimension is broken or out of balance, then all other dimensions will experience repercussions." - Pleiadian Prophecy 2020 The New Golden Age by James Carwin

PROJECT BLUE BOOK ANALYSIS! (312 pages!) | Psychedelics & UFOs | Ready to Contact UFOs? | The Source on Mushrooms:shroomeryhead:| Trippy Gematrix | Dj TeknoLogical | Fentanyl Test Kits R.I.P. Big Worm :tombstone: || The Start of the Ascension Process was 2020. Welcome to the Next Great Era of Earth 🌎🌍🌏                                                         
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InvisibleT-Funkadelic
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: Caine]
    #24002187 - 01/11/17 07:34 PM (7 years, 19 days ago)

Distance from one place to another wasn't invented. Calculating distance and time in increments was always there, we just figured it out. I don't believe in god either.


--------------------


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Invisibletrees
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: T-Funkadelic]
    #24002195 - 01/11/17 07:37 PM (7 years, 19 days ago)

The concept of distance and time was invented though


--------------------


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Invisiblesh4d0ws
LSx
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Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 12,086
Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: T-Funkadelic]
    #24002196 - 01/11/17 07:37 PM (7 years, 19 days ago)

But distances between things are a constant thing that don't need math to exist. That is just the physical circumstances of the space we live in.

Goes back to this point

"It's invented, math is an inherently imperfect model created by humans to describe physical circumstances"


--------------------


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Posts: 34,247
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: Patlal]
    #24002197 - 01/11/17 07:38 PM (7 years, 19 days ago)

Invented


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleCaine
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: T-Funkadelic]
    #24002204 - 01/11/17 07:40 PM (7 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

T-Funkadelic said:
Distance from one place to another wasn't invented.




"Physical circumstances"

Quote:

T-Funkadelic said:
Calculating distance and time in increments was always there, we just figured it out. I don't believe in god either.




"Model to describe physical circumstances"

Idk man, sounds like you agree with me but don't realize it


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InvisibleBill_Oreilly
ANIMALS (the RAINBOW SERPENT)


Registered: 11/12/11
Posts: 26,370
Loc: Boston
Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: Caine]
    #24002212 - 01/11/17 07:43 PM (7 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

Caine said:
It's invented, math is an inherently imperfect model created by humans to describe physical circumstances :shrug:





yes. correct IMO

Its just another way to describe what is already there. even that is stretching it..


--------------------
Something there is mysteriously formed,
Existing before Heaven and Earth,
Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging,
All-pervading, unfailing,
I do not know its name; I call it tao.
If forced to give it a name, I call it
Great (ta). Being great, it flows out;
Flowing out means far-reaching;
Being far-reaching, it is said to return.


It's just a shot away..


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InvisibleSirShroomsAlott
Howdy
I'm a teapot


Registered: 05/15/14
Posts: 6,945
Loc: United States Flag
Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: Caine]
    #24002219 - 01/11/17 07:44 PM (7 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

Caine said:
It's invented, math is an inherently imperfect model created by humans to describe physical circumstances :shrug:




Can you elaborate on how it's inherently imperfect? Maybe our model/understanding of it isn't perfect but I don't understand how it itself is inherently imperfect.


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InvisibleBill_Oreilly
ANIMALS (the RAINBOW SERPENT)


Registered: 11/12/11
Posts: 26,370
Loc: Boston
Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #24002220 - 01/11/17 07:45 PM (7 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Invented





:thumbup:

i thought i was going the be the only one to say it was invented


--------------------
Something there is mysteriously formed,
Existing before Heaven and Earth,
Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging,
All-pervading, unfailing,
I do not know its name; I call it tao.
If forced to give it a name, I call it
Great (ta). Being great, it flows out;
Flowing out means far-reaching;
Being far-reaching, it is said to return.


It's just a shot away..


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InvisibleBill_Oreilly
ANIMALS (the RAINBOW SERPENT)


Registered: 11/12/11
Posts: 26,370
Loc: Boston
Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: SirShroomsAlott]
    #24002222 - 01/11/17 07:46 PM (7 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

SirShroomsAlott said:
Quote:

Caine said:
It's invented, math is an inherently imperfect model created by humans to describe physical circumstances :shrug:




Can you elaborate on how it's inherently imperfect? Maybe our model/understanding of it isn't perfect but I don't understand how it itself is inherently imperfect.





i think math is something that cannot be perfect nor imperfect


--------------------
Something there is mysteriously formed,
Existing before Heaven and Earth,
Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging,
All-pervading, unfailing,
I do not know its name; I call it tao.
If forced to give it a name, I call it
Great (ta). Being great, it flows out;
Flowing out means far-reaching;
Being far-reaching, it is said to return.


It's just a shot away..


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InvisibleT-Funkadelic
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Posts: 11,392
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: Caine]
    #24002235 - 01/11/17 07:51 PM (7 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

Caine said:
Quote:

T-Funkadelic said:
Distance from one place to another wasn't invented.




"Physical circumstances"

Quote:

T-Funkadelic said:
Calculating distance and time in increments was always there, we just figured it out. I don't believe in god either.




"Model to describe physical circumstances"

Idk man, sounds like you agree with me but don't realize it




Maybe, I'm kinda lit lol. Those circumstances are still there, weather you're actually there to perceive them or not. Kind of like if a tree falls in the woods and no one's around to hear it fall, does it still make a sound.


--------------------


Edited by T-Funkadelic (01/11/17 07:57 PM)


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InvisibleSirShroomsAlott
Howdy
I'm a teapot


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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
    #24002237 - 01/11/17 07:52 PM (7 years, 19 days ago)

It's a difficult concept to explain IMO, math or at least the language and numbers we use for it is invented by us but only to explain things that are already there and inherently exists with or without our invention of what we use to explain it. It's simply a concept that's used to explain what is already there, so I guess my answer falls into math itself being invented yet at the same time it's just, as of now, an imperfect version or explanation of things yet to be discovered making it something inherent in nature....if that even makes sense lol.

I'm admittedly half drunk so excuse me if this doesn't make half as much sense as it did in my head :lol: I know what I mean but don't know if I explained it correctly.


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InvisibleCaine
lab rat
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: SirShroomsAlott]
    #24002244 - 01/11/17 07:56 PM (7 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

SirShroomsAlott said:
Quote:

Caine said:
It's invented, math is an inherently imperfect model created by humans to describe physical circumstances :shrug:




Can you elaborate on how it's inherently imperfect? Maybe our model/understanding of it isn't perfect but I don't understand how it itself is inherently imperfect.




Well, I don't know, this is a tricky question. To use a pop sci example, Heisenberg's uncertainty principle - for instance, when examining an electron: you can't measure the electron's velocity and position at the same time. Of course, the electron has a position and velocity at any given time, it's just impossible to determine experimentally. Maybe that's a bad example but mathematics is full of little bumps like this one.


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OfflineMrBlueYoMind
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: Bill_Oreilly] * 1
    #24002264 - 01/11/17 08:01 PM (7 years, 19 days ago)

The units used and base counting is invented.

You can have different maths.  We currently use base 10.



We have to convert inches and feet into centimeters and meters because how we measure is invented.  The length is there regardless and this is discovered, we simply invent a way to measure it. 

But maths is also discovered.  We discovered that certain frequencies sound more appealing than others.  But the label as to what the number of the frequency is(say, 440 hz) is an invention.  It would be a different number if we used a different base system while still sounding the same.

Maths is both invented and discovered.


--------------------
Confucius say: He who sticks drugs in butthole has head up ass. 
EVOLUTION REQUIRES REPRODUCTION


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
    #24002424 - 01/11/17 09:10 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Bill_Oreilly said:
Quote:

Caine said:
It's invented, math is an inherently imperfect model created by humans to describe physical circumstances :shrug:





yes. correct IMO

Its just another way to describe what is already there. even that is stretching it..




Human interpretation of a natural phenomenon :grin:


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InvisibleBill_Oreilly
ANIMALS (the RAINBOW SERPENT)


Registered: 11/12/11
Posts: 26,370
Loc: Boston
Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #24002440 - 01/11/17 09:14 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
Quote:

Bill_Oreilly said:
Quote:

Caine said:
It's invented, math is an inherently imperfect model created by humans to describe physical circumstances :shrug:





yes. correct IMO

Its just another way to describe what is already there. even that is stretching it..




Human interpretation of a natural phenomenon :grin:





But is it even a natural phenomenon? It seems more like a man made METHOD for describing.

Like a created law of some kind


--------------------
Something there is mysteriously formed,
Existing before Heaven and Earth,
Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging,
All-pervading, unfailing,
I do not know its name; I call it tao.
If forced to give it a name, I call it
Great (ta). Being great, it flows out;
Flowing out means far-reaching;
Being far-reaching, it is said to return.


It's just a shot away..


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
Ascension Energy & Alien UFOs
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Posts: 69,360
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
    #24002450 - 01/11/17 09:19 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

I believe the Universe runs on math. Math is Universal. Its everywhere and within everything. Humans just made an abstract explaination of a real world thing.

Adding substracting dividing multiplying (im looking at u bunnies and mice) its all there already. Even calculus trig and geometry is in nature.


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Offlinespecialpeopleclub
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
    #24002451 - 01/11/17 09:19 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Evolved, because I believe on science


--------------------


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InvisibleBill_Oreilly
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #24002473 - 01/11/17 09:28 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
I believe the Universe runs on math. Math is Universal. Its everywhere and within everything. Humans just made an abstract explaination of a real world thing.

Adding substracting dividing multiplying (im looking at u bunnies and mice) its all there already. Even calculus trig and geometry is in nature.





When you say math is universal it reminds me of south parks classroom poster :lol:

But interesting stuff there logical..as always


--------------------
Something there is mysteriously formed,
Existing before Heaven and Earth,
Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging,
All-pervading, unfailing,
I do not know its name; I call it tao.
If forced to give it a name, I call it
Great (ta). Being great, it flows out;
Flowing out means far-reaching;
Being far-reaching, it is said to return.


It's just a shot away..


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Invisiblemaggotz


Registered: 06/24/06
Posts: 7,539
Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: SirShroomsAlott] * 1
    #24002497 - 01/11/17 09:42 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

SirShroomsAlott said:
Quote:

Caine said:
It's invented, math is an inherently imperfect model created by humans to describe physical circumstances :shrug:




Can you elaborate on how it's inherently imperfect? Maybe our model/understanding of it isn't perfect but I don't understand how it itself is inherently imperfect.



relevant:
http://math.stanford.edu/~feferman/papers/Godel-IAS.pdf


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OfflineShroomslip
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: Patlal]
    #24002710 - 01/11/17 11:17 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

I dunno if anyone really ever bothers to watch the documentaries that get posted in threads but :http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xv1j0n_the-secret-life-of-chaos_shortfilms

That's a pretty good one that is kind of related to this discussion. Even the seemingly total random chances are actually bound by simple mathematics. Math is the framing and foundation that the entire universe is built upon. Without it, atoms wouldn't have formed, and without atoms you don't get stars, without stars.. well it just keeps going on like that.

I swear there was another one that that was pretty much exactly what this thread is about but I can't seem to find it. It's not the story of maths, the great math mystery and don't think it's order and disorder. Only thing I remember from it specifically is a part of it explaining why we like or dislike music and the most well liked music follows a very aesthetically pleasing mathematical rhythm. Or something like that.


--------------------
With my face against the floor I can’t see who knocked me out of the way.
I don’t want to get back up but I have to so it might as well be today.
Nothing appeals to me no one feels like me, I’m too busy being calm to disappear.
I’m in no shape to be alone contrary to the shit that you might hear.


You can't wake up, this is not a dream. You're part of a machine, you are not a human being
With your face all made up, living on a screen. Low on self esteem, so you run on gasoline


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: SARAtonin] * 2
    #24002720 - 01/11/17 11:22 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

SARAtonin said:
Math is universal and predates organic life; it was discovered, saying it was invented is akin to saying we invented fire.





before man there was no bath, math is an extension of language. nothing more


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: Patlal] * 1
    #24002906 - 01/12/17 12:55 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

constructed


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: Patlal] * 1
    #24002914 - 01/12/17 01:02 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Math as a system of symbols used to convey information is invented.
The way the symbols interact and the meaning they hold to other humans trained to comprehend them is a product of human imagining.
Math is a tool conceived of by people.

Math as a means of comprehending the world is discovered.
If a human has two apples and eats one, he or she is presumably aware that only one of the apples remains, regardless of the capacity to express that awareness through mathematical symbols.
A tool effectively 'becomes' a tool when applied to a task.


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InvisibleNiffla
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: Patlal] * 1
    #24002944 - 01/12/17 01:21 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

math is a scam used only to weed out dumb motherfuckers like me from overpopulating schools and colleges

:barbershreds:


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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #24002953 - 01/12/17 01:26 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Math cannot explain conciousness and one must be awake to count.
Quote:

akira_akuma said:
constructed



:thumbup:


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
    #24003103 - 01/12/17 04:01 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Bill_Oreilly said:
Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
I believe the Universe runs on math. Math is Universal. Its everywhere and within everything. Humans just made an abstract explaination of a real world thing.

Adding substracting dividing multiplying (im looking at u bunnies and mice) its all there already. Even calculus trig and geometry is in nature.





When you say math is universal it reminds me of south parks classroom poster :lol:

But interesting stuff there logical..as always




Haha thats where i got it from. South Park is right: math is Universal as in it exists throughout the entire Universe.

For example the gravity constant. Time can be made accurate using quartz crystals. Time is math. The atomic clock runs on the propertie of atoms. Water always freezes at a specific temp. Log numbers exist in nature especially when it comes to biology.

Math is the backbone to hard sciences. They are forever intertwined.


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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: luvdemboomers]
    #24003204 - 01/12/17 05:50 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Math is disordered language is invented  the math was always there looking at us


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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: psilly the kid] * 1
    #24003275 - 01/12/17 07:13 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quite the mind fuck yes?


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Invisiblehowsyournaggerdoin
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: Caine]
    #24003289 - 01/12/17 07:22 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Caine said:
It's invented, math is an inherently imperfect model created by humans to describe physical circumstances :shrug:




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InvisibleBill_Oreilly
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #24003422 - 01/12/17 08:49 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

SARAtonin said:
Math is universal and predates organic life; it was discovered, saying it was invented is akin to saying we invented fire.





before man there was no bath, math is an extension of language. nothing more





:thumbup:


--------------------
Something there is mysteriously formed,
Existing before Heaven and Earth,
Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging,
All-pervading, unfailing,
I do not know its name; I call it tao.
If forced to give it a name, I call it
Great (ta). Being great, it flows out;
Flowing out means far-reaching;
Being far-reaching, it is said to return.


It's just a shot away..


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: Patlal]
    #24003498 - 01/12/17 09:31 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Math is an invention.

Quote:

Caine said:
It's invented, math is an inherently imperfect model created by humans to describe physical circumstances :shrug:




It can be.  When you use math to describe or predict observations that is science.  But math can be done without any science too.  There is no requirement that math must model observations and be testable.  That is why math isnt a science in the strict sense.  People can, and do, do math in its own right with no regard to observations and phenomenon.  (But it may be hard to get funding in that case!)


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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: DieCommie]
    #24003512 - 01/12/17 09:34 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Math was created, and it is tailored to our understanding. Nature is not math but the process we use to understand it is.


--------------------
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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: Caine]
    #24003523 - 01/12/17 09:38 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Caine said:
Well, I don't know, this is a tricky question. To use a pop sci example, Heisenberg's uncertainty principle - for instance, when examining an electron: you can't measure the electron's velocity and position at the same time. Of course, the electron has a position and velocity at any given time, it's just impossible to determine experimentally. Maybe that's a bad example but mathematics is full of little bumps like this one.




This is not correct.  The uncertainty principle is not about experimental limitations.  The full description of an electron's state does not include a position and a velocity at any given time.  This is an example of science not behaving intuitively, but that doesn't make it wrong or incomplete.  It means our intuition is ignorant.


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Invisible404
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: Shroomslip]
    #24003550 - 01/12/17 09:46 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Shroomslip said:
Math exists everywhere in the universe. The names, symbols, words etc we use to describe it may be created by us, but the principles they're based on are constant regardless of language or beings intelligent enough to name it.





yup. mathematics is basically the language of the universe... in a sense, it's what drives everything. imo, everything IS mathematics on some level, and i think it's a starting place for the argument that reality is a simulation.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: Shroomslip]
    #24003558 - 01/12/17 09:48 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Shroomslip said:
Math exists everywhere in the universe. The names, symbols, words etc we use to describe it may be created by us, but the principles they're based on are constant regardless of language or beings intelligent enough to name it.




That is true of all inventions.  The principles that the wheel is based on are constant regardless of beings actually constructing one.  Yet we still consider the wheel an invention.  A computer operates on principles that existed long before man - yet we also consider a computer to be invented. 

If math is a discovery, then so is the wheel and the computer and so is everything we invent.


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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: 404]
    #24003560 - 01/12/17 09:51 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

404 said:
Quote:

Shroomslip said:
Math exists everywhere in the universe. The names, symbols, words etc we use to describe it may be created by us, but the principles they're based on are constant regardless of language or beings intelligent enough to name it.





yup. mathematics is basically the language of the universe... in a sense, it's what drives everything. imo, everything IS mathematics on some level, and i think it's a starting place for the argument that reality is a simulation.





use math to explain a rock


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Invisible404
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #24003567 - 01/12/17 09:54 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

mathematics refers to a study as we know it of the underlying way things work. it's always been there, the language that you and i see it in however, has not been around forever. the universe is an infinitely sized mathematical equation that is constantly crunching/balancing out. cells divide, asteroids follow trajectories, temperatures increase and decrease, and fluids flow etc. math is there, its how everything works.
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

404 said:
Quote:

Shroomslip said:
Math exists everywhere in the universe. The names, symbols, words etc we use to describe it may be created by us, but the principles they're based on are constant regardless of language or beings intelligent enough to name it.





yup. mathematics is basically the language of the universe... in a sense, it's what drives everything. imo, everything IS mathematics on some level, and i think it's a starting place for the argument that reality is a simulation.





use math to explain a rock




how big is the rock? what is the rock made up of? how many atoms are in the rock? what about the dimensions? do we get into the physics of the rock being ejected from a larger rock after being smashed by another rock of x proportion?


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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: 404]
    #24003575 - 01/12/17 09:59 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Yes


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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: 404]
    #24003580 - 01/12/17 10:01 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

We use the process to understand but doesnt mean nature is run on it. The way we construct logic does not mean its the only way to achieve the same results math can explain.
Where we are very pattern based thinkers and always find connections within things its only our logic can apply to what we see and experience.
Maybe its all wrong and we are living in a delusion of thinking this is how the universe works..

I'm high as shit right now too so I am sorry if I sound dumb hahaha. Its hard to collect my thoughts right nowh haha


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: 404]
    #24003584 - 01/12/17 10:02 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

404 said:
Quote:

use math to explain a rock




how big is the rock? what is the rock made up of? how many atoms are in the rock? what about the dimensions? do we get into the physics of the rock being ejected from a larger rock after being smashed by another rock of x proportion?





I said to explain the rock with math, not tell us how it got there or what size it is


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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #24003616 - 01/12/17 10:10 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

It's invented cuzz its a tool lyke ur mom


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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: cannabinated]
    #24003625 - 01/12/17 10:14 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

we were debating this in my theory of knowledge class and after giving my opinion and hearing a few other peoples' I just realized I don't give a shit
its something, math is something


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Invisible404
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #24003648 - 01/12/17 10:24 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

404 said:
Quote:

use math to explain a rock




how big is the rock? what is the rock made up of? how many atoms are in the rock? what about the dimensions? do we get into the physics of the rock being ejected from a larger rock after being smashed by another rock of x proportion?





I said to explain the rock with math, not tell us how it got there or what size it is




i could explain the rock in terms of math if i had more info ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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InvisibleDieCommie

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uan [Re: 404] * 1
    #24003660 - 01/12/17 10:30 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

We could link to some fancy equations, he wouldn't understand or believe it anyway.

Simple numbers to describe the macroscopic size and weight.  A collection of vectors to describe the shape.  Use quantum theory to describe the chemical makeup and behavior.  Use classical mechanics to describe its macroscopic motion.


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Re: uan [Re: DieCommie]
    #24003726 - 01/12/17 10:58 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

It really just depends what we are referring to by "Math" if we mean the laws that the universe follows, then obviously we discovered them.

However Math is not equivelant to the laws of the universe, the laws are there regardless of whether there is anyone around to understand them, but mathematics is the language created by humans to try to understand these laws.

Therefore math was invented by humans, but it is used to discover universal truths about the universe.


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Re: uan [Re: Svetaketu] * 1
    #24003734 - 01/12/17 11:01 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

"Truths about the universe" is the realm of religious mystics and philosophers.  The laws you speak of are mathematical laws.  They are models when it comes to describing the universe.  That is an important distinction.


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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: DieCommie]
    #24003954 - 01/12/17 12:36 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Two men see two cows. One of them thought about it and discovered (learned) that there are two cows, but he is unable to communicate this idea. When he communicates it, he has invented the idea of mathematics.


That is my take.


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: psilly the kid]
    #24004023 - 01/12/17 01:00 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

psilly the kid said:
Math is disordered language is invented  the math was always there looking at us




math is a big pervert.


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InvisibleBill_Oreilly
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #24004175 - 01/12/17 01:49 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

404 said:
Quote:

Shroomslip said:
Math exists everywhere in the universe. The names, symbols, words etc we use to describe it may be created by us, but the principles they're based on are constant regardless of language or beings intelligent enough to name it.





yup. mathematics is basically the language of the universe... in a sense, it's what drives everything. imo, everything IS mathematics on some level, and i think it's a starting place for the argument that reality is a simulation.





use math to explain a rock





:baaaam:


--------------------
Something there is mysteriously formed,
Existing before Heaven and Earth,
Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging,
All-pervading, unfailing,
I do not know its name; I call it tao.
If forced to give it a name, I call it
Great (ta). Being great, it flows out;
Flowing out means far-reaching;
Being far-reaching, it is said to return.


It's just a shot away..


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Invisible404
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
    #24004284 - 01/12/17 02:24 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

:justno:


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: 404] * 1
    #24004292 - 01/12/17 02:26 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

math is constructed.

when there is a construct, such as "rock", the terms used to mathematically define "rock" are invented terms, but not invented aspects of "rock"- they are discovered aspects of "rock".

but the terminology and symbols used to define it are invented.

so the definition is constructed from the terminology and the real-world existence of "rock".


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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: Bill_Oreilly] * 1
    #24004358 - 01/12/17 02:45 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

A rock contains some trillion molecules, weighs a specific amount of weight caused by the constant force of gravity, measured by complex geometry.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 2
    #24004386 - 01/12/17 02:54 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

the methods to measure are static, but the measurements themselves are never static, unless you're talking about utter duplicates of things. all rocks are slightly different, thus give different results through said "static measurements".

these results needs be extrapolated by these methods, or you garner no new information.

this information is dependent on the methods of extrapolation, thus, this information is obscured by predilections on methodology; ie, what is the best method for measuring this data?

these methods are invented by man, thus the interpretations are predicated by the inventions to derive data measurements from objects.

thus said interpretations are only as real as the methods used to define them.


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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #24004413 - 01/12/17 03:04 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Math wrath


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: psilly the kid]
    #24004461 - 01/12/17 03:17 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)



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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 2
    #24004491 - 01/12/17 03:25 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
A rock contains some trillion molecules, weighs a specific amount of weight caused by the constant force of gravity, measured by complex geometry.



Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
A rock contains some trillion molecules, weighs a specific amount of weight caused by the constant force of gravity, measured by complex geometry.



But it's never the same twice.
No constructed thought tool will ever be able to completely describe anything.


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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: pineninja]
    #24004561 - 01/12/17 03:43 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Actually, there are a finite number of variables and values that go into a rock's formation. It may be an extraordinarily long number, but given enough time the same pattern should repeat at some point. Just because that time table is so large it's pretty much incomprehensible to us, doesn't mean it's impossible.


--------------------
With my face against the floor I can’t see who knocked me out of the way.
I don’t want to get back up but I have to so it might as well be today.
Nothing appeals to me no one feels like me, I’m too busy being calm to disappear.
I’m in no shape to be alone contrary to the shit that you might hear.


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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: Shroomslip]
    #24004572 - 01/12/17 03:47 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

i could be wrong, but the "is never the same" part might have been a quantum mechanics reference?


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: Shroomslip] * 1
    #24004618 - 01/12/17 04:05 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Shroomslip said:
Actually, there are a finite number of variables and values that go into a rock's formation. It may be an extraordinarily long number, but given enough time the same pattern should repeat at some point. Just because that time table is so large it's pretty much incomprehensible to us, doesn't mean it's impossible.




it's a calculation of a mathematical object, that which is an entity constructed by intuitive computation by using abstracts to create quasi-empirical theorems.


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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: Shroomslip] * 1
    #24004619 - 01/12/17 04:05 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Shroomslip said:
Actually, there are a finite number of variables and values that go into a rock's formation. It may be an extraordinarily long number, but given enough time the same pattern should repeat at some point. Just because that time table is so large it's pretty much incomprehensible to us, doesn't mean it's impossible.



Fundamentally disagree.
Chaos exists.
During the very action of measurement you shift outcomes.


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: pineninja]
    #24004696 - 01/12/17 04:30 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

True, there is no absolute theory for ALL rocks, its on a specific rock-to-rock basis.


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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #24004709 - 01/12/17 04:35 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

I'm also talking about that singular rock never being the same twice.


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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: Patlal]
    #24004714 - 01/12/17 04:36 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Mathematics is invented OP. It is a tool created by humans to help our brains process the universe.


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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: pineninja]
    #24004793 - 01/12/17 05:00 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

pineninja said:
I'm also talking about that singular rock never being the same twice.




I'm not sure how this matters.  We know nature is in flux.  Describing that change is part of what describing our observations with math is about.


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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: DieCommie]
    #24004803 - 01/12/17 05:04 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

So is maths intrinsically a part of nature, or a just a tool being used to somewhat describe it?


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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: pineninja]
    #24004813 - 01/12/17 05:07 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

I already answered that, its an invention.  And its far more powerful than "somewhat".  Predictions from scientific theory that uses math are accurate to over a dozen decimal places.


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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: DieCommie]
    #24004875 - 01/12/17 05:24 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Then we agree:shrug:
But that "accuracy" is relative only to your sense of achievement.


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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: 404]
    #24005883 - 01/12/17 11:12 PM (7 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

404 said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

404 said:
Quote:

use math to explain a rock




how big is the rock? what is the rock made up of? how many atoms are in the rock? what about the dimensions? do we get into the physics of the rock being ejected from a larger rock after being smashed by another rock of x proportion?





I said to explain the rock with math, not tell us how it got there or what size it is




i could explain the rock in terms of math if i had more info ¯\_(ツ)_/¯





fine, the rock is granite


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Invisiblemillzy
Male

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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #24006250 - 01/13/17 05:20 AM (7 years, 17 days ago)

invented: i'm on the 'fictionalist'/'anti-realist' side of the mathematical realism debate for now. our mathematical models are predictive rather than descriptive.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


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InvisibleBill_Oreilly
ANIMALS (the RAINBOW SERPENT)


Registered: 11/12/11
Posts: 26,370
Loc: Boston
Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #24006285 - 01/13/17 06:02 AM (7 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
A rock contains some trillion molecules, weighs a specific amount of weight caused by the constant force of gravity, measured by complex geometry.





Thats just observation created by the viewer, though. You invented that based on rules scientists invented


--------------------
Something there is mysteriously formed,
Existing before Heaven and Earth,
Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging,
All-pervading, unfailing,
I do not know its name; I call it tao.
If forced to give it a name, I call it
Great (ta). Being great, it flows out;
Flowing out means far-reaching;
Being far-reaching, it is said to return.


It's just a shot away..


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OfflineApostle
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: Patlal]
    #24006340 - 01/13/17 06:35 AM (7 years, 17 days ago)

The laws of physics, which are essentially laws of mathematics, were discovered not invented.

imo


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OfflineWhitewater
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: Apostle] * 1
    #24006375 - 01/13/17 06:59 AM (7 years, 17 days ago)

I think a lot of folks are getting hung up on applied mathematics. Describing the universe with mathematical models is always an approximation (sometimes very good). Theoretical math, however, is by definition true. The relationships and patterns among numbers have always existed, and our equations have simply discovered things.

Mathematics as the formal language is most definitely invented. Yet it is used to make discoveries.

Dumb example: the hypotenuse of a right triangle squared will always equal sqrt(a^2+b^2). That relationship has always existed for that shape.


--------------------


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Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: Apostle]
    #24006441 - 01/13/17 07:39 AM (7 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Apostle said:
The laws of physics, which are essentially laws of mathematics, were discovered not invented.

imo



the laws of physics are immutable. the descriptions (the language- symbolic and otherwise) of said laws are not. math is a language. the universe does not speak. it's only a nice metaphor.


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Offlinepsilly the kid
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #24007104 - 01/13/17 12:50 PM (7 years, 17 days ago)

I have to say maybe depends on the definition of math you use


--------------------
CA weed @ all times unless specified
currently this high
pebbles suck
its turtles all the way down


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: millzy]
    #24007498 - 01/13/17 03:13 PM (7 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
invented: i'm on the 'fictionalist'/'anti-realist' side of the mathematical realism debate for now. our mathematical models are predictive rather than descriptive.




They are both.  What happens when you model a phenomenon after the fact?  Then its descriptive.  The only difference between being predictive vs descriptive is when you develop the model.  You can throw a ball, then I can model it after the fact to describe its motion.  Or, I can model the motion and predict how it will move.


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OfflinePatlal
You ask too many questions
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: DieCommie]
    #27413420 - 08/03/21 07:03 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

I want to revive this.


--------------------


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Invisiblepineninja
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Posts: 12,468
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: Patlal] * 1
    #27413459 - 08/03/21 07:34 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

:elmo:

Is math a construct.
Or was it always there to find.
Strangely enough the answer is love
The one thing it cant define.

This transcendental geometry.
That words cannot possibly convey.
Deeper than fundamentally
It's both the observer...and the day.

An exploration of an unassailable self.
The fingers with which we feel.
A mathematical pinch is just.
Proving ourselves to be real.

It hurts because we are the same.
Both the math and the mind.
Take the mask of separateness away.
You may be surprised by which answer you find.


--------------------
Just a fool on the hill.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
Bodhi
I'm a teapot User Gallery

Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,658
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: pineninja]
    #27413464 - 08/03/21 07:36 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

:tellmeastory:


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


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Offlinegopher
Coffee Bean Extraordinaire
I'm a teapot


Registered: 11/22/17
Posts: 13,009
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #27413468 - 08/03/21 07:41 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
If u believe in God, math is discovered.

If u dont believe in God, math is invented.

Yer welcome.
:awethumb:




I believe God invented math


--------------------
For most of the normies out there, an operating system is just a bootloader for Google Chrome.

Since Disney has obtained tremendous value from the public domain, knows how important the public domain is, and is firmly determined to never contribute anything to it.

My pronouns are He and Him, and my adjectives are Fat and Jazzy

:kratom:


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
Bodhi
I'm a teapot User Gallery

Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,658
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: gopher]
    #27413480 - 08/03/21 07:49 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

But den who invented gawd

:geicogecko:


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


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Offlinegopher
Coffee Bean Extraordinaire
I'm a teapot


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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #27413483 - 08/03/21 07:51 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

God didnt need to be invented, he was discovered


--------------------
For most of the normies out there, an operating system is just a bootloader for Google Chrome.

Since Disney has obtained tremendous value from the public domain, knows how important the public domain is, and is firmly determined to never contribute anything to it.

My pronouns are He and Him, and my adjectives are Fat and Jazzy

:kratom:


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
Bodhi
I'm a teapot User Gallery

Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,658
Loc: The Primordial Mind
Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: gopher] * 1
    #27413487 - 08/03/21 07:55 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Explain like I’m five and high.


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


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Invisiblepineninja
Dream Weaver
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Registered: 08/17/14
Posts: 12,468
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #27413513 - 08/03/21 08:12 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

:rolleyes: great t-shirt.


--------------------
Just a fool on the hill.


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