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InvisibleComebackKid
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Proper Surface Moisture / When to Increase FAE * 100
    #23999053 - 01/10/17 06:44 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Identifying Proper Surface Moisture
When to Increase Fresh Air Exchange




Introduction

I'm noticing lately a lot of dry substrates in the cult, possibly do to the dry winter months.
A lot of substrates are drying out before pins have formed.
If you want a nice pinset you must have favourable surface conditions for pinning.
That means proper hydration and care.


Pourpose of this TEK

To have a reference for desired surface moisture and caring for your substate.

I'm also going to write a step-by-step guide on how I achieve my desired hydration and what I look for during the process.
Please note that you may need to adjust these settings to your environment but I encourage everyone to follow this TEK once through before making any changes.


What You'll Need

What I'm going to be using for demonstration:


I'm trying to give as much credit where it's due. If someone notices me using other methods please let me know so I can credit the user and link to this demonstration.

Other things you'll need:

  • Garbage bag (liner)
  • Spray bottle
  • Patience


The TEK

First half of this will be examples of desirable surface conditions for pinning.
The second will be set up in the form of a grow log with notes along the way.


Surface Moisture:

While your waiting for your pinset to fill out you want to see beads of moisture covering the entire surface of your substrate.

If/when your substrate starts to dry, give it a generous misting.
Mist from above your tub, letting the mist gently fall to the surface of your sub. It will bead up all on its own.
You want to avoid pooling of water on the surface!


These have very large beads of moisture created naturally by the heat of the mycelium. It is not absolutely nessisary to have such large beads of moisture on the surface but this is my personal preference.


Alcapone2k's substrate right before a light misting. Majority of the sub is covered in beads of moisture but the left side has evaporated and needs a little attention.


Casing your sub is an effective way to keep the surace hydrated. Notice that the myc popping up through the casing will still bead with moisture when properly hydrated.

When to Increase Fresh Air Exchange:

After your pinset has filled in you should increase FAE by opening up your poly or even cracking the lid!


A few days after I increased FAE. They were from a Multispore grow so I waited on a few stragglers before increasing FAE. A handful of mushrooms had already developed quite a bit by the time I got around to it.


It's easy for fruits that are packed this densely to keep up their own microclimate. After the pins matured even more, I popped the micropore tape right out of the top holes in this tub and even out of some of the bottom holes. There was still lots of condensation just above the caps. 


Demonstration

This is how I achieve my desired surface moisture without misting.
This method uses low passive FAE while pinset is developing.
This will be a heavely detailed demonstration and will be updated with pictures as I go.
Here we go!


Preparing Bulk Substrate:

I'm not going to get too in depth with this one. Everyone prepares their substrates differently.
I linked to Bucket TEK earlier because that is the method I use to prepare my coir.

Mix up:
  • 4.5 quarts of water
  • 2 quarts vermiculite
  • 1 brick coir (650g)

This should give you roughly 10 quarts substrate once all is said and done


Spawning to Bulk Substrate:

FEB 6 2017

The first thing I like to do is start all the clean preparations.

1. Tape monotub holes!!!!!!!!!

Very important. No we are not fruiting and spawning at the same time. I have seen too many dry tubs only to find that whoever spawned it fruited it at the same time.
You may see fruits a few days sooner that way but you risk drying out your substrate before it is ready.
I'm asking you to have some patients...

2. Line your monotub

I like to use a whole garbage bag and leave it intact. Keep it closed and lay it in your tub, lining the bottom and sides.
The tape over the holes may come in handy here. You may be able to stick the liner to the tape in the holes or you could pin it to the sides with more tape. Whatever suits your fancy.

Now we can get messy

3. Mix spawn and substrate
Set aside 1-2 quarts of bulk substrate for later.

Then dump all six jars containing 4.5 quarts of spawn into your bucket containing the remaining 9 quarts of bulk substrate.
This gives you a 1:2 spawn:sub ratio.
Mix really well with your hands making sure to get in the bottom corners of your bucket.

4. Spawn your monotub
Pour the contents of the bucket into your lined monotub. Smooth it out nice and flat but keep the substrate light and airy.
Then cover it with the remaining quart of bulk substrate.

5. Cut the liner
Take a pair of scissors and carefully cut the garbage bag along the edge of the substrate.
If you did everything right you should now have a double liner in your tub.

A double liner is useful because it creates a dry barrier between the liner and the tub.

One liner will stick to the sub as it shrinks while the other will stick to the condensation inside the monotub.
This eliminates the problem of one liner favouring both sides and creating air pockets.



Now we wait for the tub to colonize.

Feb 12 2017

6 days after spawn


Beads of water have started to form on the surface of the substrate where the myc has popped up. The beads will continue to form grow after I fruit the tub.

The sub is fully colonized under the 2 quarts of casing. You could fruit now, but I'm still going to give it a couple more days before fruiting.

Fruiting your Monotub:

Feb 14 2017

8 days after spawn


I finally decided to introduce fresh air exchange!
I usually like to wait until the mycelium completely colonizes the casing layer but I used 2 quarts for this tub so the casing is pretty thick.
8 days is long enough imo. I wouldn't wait longer than 10 anyway.


Water is beading up nicely where the myc is popping through.

I will be dialing in using Pastywhyte's default setup for his Easy Micropore Dialed in Monos.
The only difference is that I apply the first layer on the bottom holes vertically.
This makes it easier for me to remove layers of tape down the road.


Feb 19 2017

13 days after spawn
We have pins!!! I'm feeling good about this one!



Increasing Fresh Air Exchange:

Feb 23 2017

17 days after spawn
Now that my pinset has filled in I want to increase FAE to encourage growth.
A dense pinset like this will help keep up a microclimate so my sub can handle a little more FAE without drying out.



I first start by removing the micropore tape from the top holes of my tub. Then I remove a layer from the bottom.
This should allow pleanty of FAE while still keeping RH inside the tub.


This set up makes it easy to peel off one layer of tape while leaving the rest undisturbed.

If you want to take it to the next level you can crack the lid of the tub a bit. I have had success with this in the past but you'll have to keep a much closer eye on your tub.

When allowing more FAE it is important to always keep an eye on the moisture of your tub. Give your mushrooms a good mist if they start to get dry.


Harvest:

Feb 26 2017
20 days after spawn

:raveface:


Edited by ComebackKid (03/21/17 09:11 PM)


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OfflineKizzle
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Re: Proper Surface Moisture / When to Increase FAE [Re: ComebackKid] * 5
    #23999381 - 01/10/17 08:20 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

No but you do have quite a few aborts there. See how some of those pins have slimy caps? That's from being in contact with those water droplets. Those pins could eventually abort from the bacteria.

In a monotub the mycelium can store more than enough water for the entire flush. No need to keep it saturated the whole time.


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InvisiblefahtsterM
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Re: Proper Surface Moisture / When to Increase FAE [Re: meehowski] * 4
    #28319654 - 05/14/23 03:32 PM (8 months, 10 days ago)

Just thought Iโ€™d post some pics to show this thread is spot on.  Most of these have a 1โ€ compressed top layer.. a couple maybe a 1/2โ€











Current tubs:

โ€ฆ.


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OfflineKizzle
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Re: Proper Surface Moisture / When to Increase FAE [Re: ComebackKid] * 3
    #23999155 - 01/10/17 07:09 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

I'm noticing lately a lot of dry substrates in the cult, possibly do to the dry winter months.
A lot of people are cleaning cultures with agar and using clean spawn. But their substrates dry out before pinset has come in.
If you want a nice pinset you must achieve proper surface moisture.



Droplets on the surface are normal during colonization but you want those droplets to dry up when you starting fruiting to help trigger pinning and to prevent bacterial blotching.


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InvisibleComebackKid
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Re: Proper Surface Moisture / When to Increase FAE [Re: Kizzle] * 3
    #23999226 - 01/10/17 07:27 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

I have yet to have pinning problems due to lack of evaporation. :shrug: Mind you, I only have 5 monotub grows.


It's benificial for the pinset to have beads of moisture on the sub surface during its development. You will notice as the pins grow they use up the water supplied by the beads.






--------------------
:amanita2: Substrate surface conditions / Monotub prep and care :sporedrop:

Look around you... Everything you see exists inside the mind.
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Re: Proper Surface Moisture / When to Increase FAE [Re: AlCapone2k] * 3
    #24000820 - 01/11/17 11:00 AM (7 years, 17 days ago)

Evaporation from the surface is a pinning trigger. Drying out causes death of the substrate. As the evaporation occurs you need to ensure the surface is still moist. With bulk often the heat produced by the sub can produce more condensation to be evaporated. If the FAE is too high then the surface can indeed dry out too much.

One of the reasons cakes are a great way to learn is because they stress the principle that we only mist when water from the previous mist has dissipated. But we need to ensure we mist enough so the cakes do not dry out.

With bulk it's no different except that much of our RH is supplied by the substrate rather than a chamber. But the cycle is the same.


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Re: Proper Surface Moisture / When to Increase FAE [Re: ComebackKid] * 3
    #24533598 - 08/05/17 08:47 PM (6 years, 5 months ago)

i know this threads a little old. but i love this thread. thought i would post some pictures. i don't really observe the conditions when i do my tubs with the way i run them. but this is a good example of pinning with the beads of moisture on the surface. cool thread comebackkid! what i find so cool about it is, that in my environment i run, i pretty much do this same thing. my environment does it all without any effort. but its a good thing to look at what is providing ques to your fruiting environmental changes. once you dial in your setup, you shouldn't have to do any work. it appears you colonize with tape or what not. i don't do this. i keep poly or pinky filters in tighter. this removes the step of having to use tape or anything like that. :thumbup:

Texas Yellow Cap


Lucy Golden Teacher



i'll add a note. this tub has the filters in it 3 folded since spawning. nothing has changed. there is no fan in the room. and the bulk substrate is strawnet/coir. there was no misting done prior to this flush but the surface looks like that at pinning.there was a top layer of strawnet/coir added about 1/4" depth at spawning.

sub recipe for this tub is 1 brick coir/ 1 cup strawnet/ 1 cup gyspum to 5 quarts water.

the idea is to keep these filters as is through the process. but if needed, they will be adjusted at fruiting. this is the first run ive done with no fan or little airflow.

the filters are a little more open pored than polyfil. so i think its a little different. ive attemped with a few configurations so far but tight is the 3rd configuration. the looser methods seemed to allow too much surface drying at vital points. also, the fan in the room only has a minumum medium speed. generally i use a fan with subtle low airflow. but i had to replace the pull chord a while back and home depot only had 2 speed fan replacements for a 3 speed fan. minimum fan speed is medium now. im going to use your thread to observe my surface conditions this time and hopefully contribute.

:rockon:


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Edited by eatyualive (08/06/17 12:08 PM)


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OfflineCybin_man
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Re: Proper Surface Moisture / When to Increase FAE [Re: shroomflow] * 3
    #25124651 - 04/08/18 11:41 PM (5 years, 9 months ago)

If you are having a hard time seeing if your sub has moisture on top, get a flashlight and shine it through the edge of your tub at substrate level. Very easy to see water droplets that way. Works for me.


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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: Proper Surface Moisture / When to Increase FAE [Re: Kizzle] * 2
    #23999451 - 01/10/17 08:40 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

I like to have a good amount of surface moisture while waiting for the pins to set up. Whether you use a mister, a casing or a little less passive FAE to accomplish this, once the pins are in you definitely want the fae dialed up to promote healthy development.


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InvisibleMad Season
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Re: Proper Surface Moisture / When to Increase FAE [Re: Pastywhyte] * 2
    #23999816 - 01/10/17 10:55 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
I like to have a good amount of surface moisture while waiting for the pins to set up. Whether you use a mister, a casing or a little less passive FAE to accomplish this, once the pins are in you definitely want the fae dialed up to promote healthy development.



:whathesaid:

Actually the constant cycling of drying to damp from proper misting is a massive pinning trigger IME.


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Re: Proper Surface Moisture / When to Increase FAE [Re: AlCapone2k] * 2
    #24000511 - 01/11/17 08:48 AM (7 years, 17 days ago)

Looks good, maybe spray a bit more towards the left side of the tub,
but other than that, let it evaporate off completely and repeat :thumbup:


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Re: Proper Surface Moisture / When to Increase FAE [Re: Psilosoulful] * 2
    #24000774 - 01/11/17 10:39 AM (7 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Psilosoulful said:
Looks good, maybe spray a bit more towards the left side of the tub,
but other than that, let it evaporate off completely and repeat :thumbup:



:whathesaid:
Looks good man! Do you mind if I use your pictures as an example in my thread?

Just be careful not to let it get too dry or you risk mycelium matting on the surface.
If you're watching your tub that shouldn't be an issue though :thumbup:


--------------------
:amanita2: Substrate surface conditions / Monotub prep and care :sporedrop:

Look around you... Everything you see exists inside the mind.
Consciousness, the awareness that is experiencing this mind,
is peering in from outside the universe.

Our individual experiences are all part of the universe's experience of itself


Edited by ComebackKid (01/11/17 10:58 AM)


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Re: Proper Surface Moisture / When to Increase FAE [Re: ComebackKid] * 2
    #24023262 - 01/19/17 03:35 PM (7 years, 9 days ago)

Yeah, I also was waiting for mold to come but nothing happened. Actually I live in Small Students Apartment and I can't risk to have mold spores flying around Here. So I throw stuff away a Bit early maybe.

Whatever, it's shit genetic anyway, had a tub with the Same genetic that didnt fruit after 30days of fruitung :laugh:


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Re: Proper Surface Moisture / When to Increase FAE [Re: ComebackKid] * 2
    #24710303 - 10/14/17 06:44 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Thank you to CBK et al!!!

Read through all the posts and wanted to try and distill into one spot the crux of the misting/hydration portion of this TEK (lmk ASAP of any errors and omissions):

1. Let mist gently fall down from far far away like ethereal dew from the astral plane.
2. Maintain beads of moisture constantly during colonization. Puddles=too much misting.
3. Initiate fruiting by letting dry between mists. (Do not let surface dry out which could kill myc) I take this to mean that seeing no droplets=dry. Letting the surface myc and the surface substrate completely dry out is bad.
4. Increase FAE once pins are in. (Bodhisatta stops misting once pins are  1" older post, not sure if current)
5. Avoid droplets on larger shrooms: can lead to bacterial contamination    and aborts.
6. If droplets do not dry up that is ok, stop misting until they do.
7. Proper hydration of substrate prior to mixing with spawn, and using a  large tub and having at least 3" depth.

Here are what I found to be the most informative quotes:

ComebackKid

Surface Moisture

While your waiting for your pinset to fill out you want to see beads of moisture covering the entire surface of your substrate.

If/when your substrate starts to dry, give it a generous misting.
Mist from above your tub, letting the mist gently fall to the surface of your sub. It will bead up all on its own.
You want to avoid pooling of water on the surface!

When to Increase Fresh Air Exchange:

After your pinset has filled in you should increase FAE by opening up your poly or even cracking the lid!

It's benificial for the pinset to have beads of moisture on the sub surface during its development. You will notice as the pins grow they use up the water supplied by the beads.


Kizzle

Droplets on the surface are normal during colonization but you want those droplets to dry up when you starting fruiting to help trigger pinning and to prevent bacterial blotching.

No but you do have quite a few aborts there. See how some of those pins have slimy caps? That's from being in contact with those water droplets. Those pins could eventually abort from the bacteria.

In a monotub the mycelium can store more than enough water for the entire flush. No need to keep it saturated the whole time.


Pastywhyte (Trusted Cultivator)

I like to have a good amount of surface moisture while waiting for the pins to set up. Whether you use a mister, a casing or a little less passive FAE to accomplish this, once the pins are in you definitely want the fae dialed up to promote healthy development.

Evaporation from the surface is a pinning trigger. Drying out causes death of the substrate. As the evaporation occurs you need to ensure the surface is still moist. With bulk often the heat produced by the sub can produce more condensation to be evaporated. If the FAE is too high then the surface can indeed dry out too much.

One of the reasons cakes are a great way to learn is because they stress the principle that we only mist when water from the previous mist has dissipated. But we need to ensure we mist enough so the cakes do not dry out.

With bulk it's no different except that much of our RH is supplied by the substrate rather than a chamber. But the cycle is the same.

Don't even worry about fanning a mono. The heat from the substrate cycles the air.

If it's dry mist it. You can then dial it in for less FAE but always mist if it appears to be drying out.

responding to post about droplets never drying up:
As long as they aren't pooling it's fine.

On Bod's Unmodified Tub TEK I brought up "Bottom Watering" PW's post
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=24710777&page=0&vc=1#24710777
You don't bottom water unless you suspect the bulk will not be able to supply the pinset with enough water. If I am thinking I have potential to achieve in excess of 2500 wet grams first flush, I will consider bottom watering. At that point the water isn't added until the pinset is in and the substrate pulls away.

If you are not looking at pulling that much first flush and your pinset is in, bottom watering is going to hurt the yield.


Mad Season (Trusted Cultivator)

Actually the constant cycling of drying to damp from proper misting is a massive pinning trigger IME.

Yep. And tbh if the surface dries out, it seems to just dry out at least once a day. Even if you stuff it tight AF. Maybe it's just my climate? :shrug: but it makes sense to me that if the sub lost too much water to hold the humidity to maintain surface hydration, it needs to be replaced regularly through misting.

The trick is learning how much to mist. Not too much or not too little, it's a Goldilocks zone. I'd say it took me 6+ months of misting substrates every day before I could confidently mist properly every time.

AlCapone2k

I also experienced, that it's easier to Maintain a good Surface moisture, when you don't fruit at spawning.

Thedillestpickle

It seems you wait until fully colonized, then you "fruit" as in removing tape and replacing with double layered micropore.  And then you wait for as long as it takes until you have a nice pinset, misting if needed to achieve nice beads of moisture.  Once you have the pinset in you increase FAE even more by removing one layer of micropore from the bottom holes and completely removing all the micropore from the top holes.

(I included some pearls from Bodhisatta (Trusted Cultivator) because I have been using his unmodified tub tek, which was referenced on this thread by Travishibachi on page 9)
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22337800/fpart/1/vc/1


--------------------
How terrible is wisdom that brings no profit to the wise?


Edited by beancake (10/16/17 10:34 PM)


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Invisiblevan hattonFacebookDiscord
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Re: Proper Surface Moisture / When to Increase FAE [Re: GteachThe] * 2
    #26054186 - 06/15/19 02:55 PM (4 years, 7 months ago)

:bump:


--------------------
If I ever give out misinformation please inform me so I can have the correct information. :cheers:

Tmethyl said:
Chuck Norris once roundhouse kicked a monotub that wasn't pinning fast enough. The force of the kick rearranged the genetics of the mushrooms, we now call them Penis Envy.

Caps McGee said:
:thumbsup:
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Re: Proper Surface Moisture / When to Increase FAE [Re: Capfactory] * 2
    #27090430 - 12/15/20 12:16 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Capfactory said:
Hey man nice write up ! Iโ€™m kind of a noobie on my first run and I am using this tek ! On feb 14(8 days after spawn ) when you put it into fruiting how did you introduce FAE??? Did you take off the red tape and replaced it with mp tape ?  I saw you took the tapes out when the Pins came in ! So what did u do differently when you were introducing it to fruiting ?? And lastly can I just leave the MP tape on from colonization to fruiting ? Basically put in fruiting conditions from the very start ?




Only have a few posts up, but to answer ur question, yes you can just put it straight into fruiting conditions with MP on ur mono holes once you spawn ๐Ÿ˜

I have 5 mini monos and one 66qt mono of AA+, 1 of which has started to fruit a few big side fruits the last couple days and am waiting on pinning in the middle cos I messed with my tub early on n should have just left it ๐Ÿ˜‘


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Re: Proper Surface Moisture / When to Increase FAE [Re: Josborne] * 2
    #27128072 - 01/05/21 11:58 AM (3 years, 22 days ago)

Iโ€™m not sure how youโ€™re going to not touch a mono until second or third flush no matter how well you dial it in. How are you going to harvest the first flush? At the least misting after you harvest a first flush cannot be that much of an inconvenience.


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Re: Proper Surface Moisture / When to Increase FAE [Re: fahtster] * 2
    #27766518 - 05/06/22 08:06 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

I realize this thread is old as fuck lol I have been doing this for years but I am curious.....What is the consensus on keeping tubs in the dark until fruiting...?

Looking back over this thread I didnt see comebackkid mention covering the monos while they colonize in the first stage.


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Re: Proper Surface Moisture / When to Increase FAE [Re: Kia] * 2
    #28081273 - 12/03/22 12:27 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

The veils started to break that night so I harvested them today. They grow so fast!
They went from



To



Overnight!


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Re: Proper Surface Moisture / When to Increase FAE [Re: Kizzle] * 1
    #23999240 - 01/10/17 07:30 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Kizzle said:
Quote:

I'm noticing lately a lot of dry substrates in the cult, possibly do to the dry winter months.
A lot of people are cleaning cultures with agar and using clean spawn. But their substrates dry out before pinset has come in.
If you want a nice pinset you must achieve proper surface moisture.



Droplets on the surface are normal during colonization but you want those droplets to dry up when you starting fruiting to help trigger pinning and to prevent bacterial blotching.




This is true.


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