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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



Registered: 02/15/12
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Whats wrong with americas medical system?
#23997631 - 01/10/17 09:11 AM (7 years, 20 days ago) |
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I'm trying to outline where all this nonsense originates. Is it with the medical schools and people who decide on the curriculum? Is it the manufacturers combined with the insurers while having the lawmakers in their pockets?
Idk, I can grasp at straws but hoping somebody else has a better understanding or can point me to some recommended reading.
My little outline:
Pill/med supply manufacturers: Provides the symptom treatments, peddles them to doctors/hospitals, why are they so freaking expensive? Can subsidize milk but not basic medical necessities? Or not even subsidize, just negotiate non-insane pricing, more on par with pricing in every other modernized country.
Medical schools/curriculum: Teaches to treat symptoms and establish life-long customers.
Doctors: Go along with med school/manufacturers scam. They've got to know, how could they not know?
Insurance Companies: Get everybody to play the lottery by skyrocketing prices, people either need insurance or will go broke paying out of pocket. Approve only symptom treatments, and cheap less than ideal treatments.
Medical Law:
Edited by Psilosopherr (01/10/17 09:39 AM)
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SunnyD
WiZarD oF LoVe



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Re: Whats wrong with americas medical system? [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23997644 - 01/10/17 09:17 AM (7 years, 20 days ago) |
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That seems pretty accurate
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        And to everyone who thinks life is just a game, Do you like the part you are playing? This is the time in life I am living! And I face each day with a smile My music Library of Synthesizer goodness
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badchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
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Re: Whats wrong with americas medical system? [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23997663 - 01/10/17 09:26 AM (7 years, 20 days ago) |
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It's a capitalistic system, and whether there is something "wrong" with it is a matter of perspective.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



Registered: 02/15/12
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Re: Whats wrong with americas medical system? [Re: badchad]
#23997675 - 01/10/17 09:31 AM (7 years, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
badchad said: It's a capitalistic system, and whether there is something "wrong" with it is a matter of perspective.
Consider the way in which this effects people lives though. Its not just about the money, this is peoples health we're talking about. People are being purposefully given inferior treatments for symptoms instead of long term cures, for one thing.
Everybody I talk to these days has a story to tell about hardships caused by this system, most more than one.
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specialpeopleclub


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Re: Whats wrong with americas medical system? [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23997690 - 01/10/17 09:37 AM (7 years, 20 days ago) |
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It isnt really capitalistic. Few tings are anymore as people let their insecurity and ignorance allow ten to support unproven economic policies because the idea of a state, parent, or god is comforting even if its an impotent thing.
The worst part I see is the lack of long term treatment like nutrition, t lack f doctor gaining in such, and the inability of doctors to literally tell their patience they are stupid for smoking or soda drinking(pretty much the same)
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



Registered: 02/15/12
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I fucking know right? Diet is your medical practice until you actually injure yourself or get a disease/virus/etc...and even then it continues to be a big part of it obviously.
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specialpeopleclub


Registered: 04/10/14
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Re: Whats wrong with americas medical system? [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23997704 - 01/10/17 09:44 AM (7 years, 20 days ago) |
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Its the tying that let's us not-olds stay healthy until we finally establish ourselves and can afford to get hurt.
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CookieCrumbs
Fucked off to the pub


Registered: 12/10/11
Posts: 14,146
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Yeah the ignorance of environmental factors or allergies that don't necessarily cause histamine reactions is one thing that really bothers me.
I'll try to find the article but I read doctors are just as frustrated as anyone else. Most of their day and the busy rush is because of paperwork and phone calls. They spend something like 10% of their day with their patients.
And I dunno about you guys but I've never seen a doc that was always on time or didn't try to rush thru my appointment.
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Free time is the only time
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ReposadoXochipilli
Here, there, inbetween



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Its for profit. It is working exactly the way it is supossed to.
Don't like it, become rich i guess. I can't wait to see the details of the republicans new plan.
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specialpeopleclub


Registered: 04/10/14
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Its not that its for profit that causes the problems. There isnt competition or transparency
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Patlal
You ask too many questions



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The only problem with America's health care system is that it's not universal.
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


Registered: 01/22/03
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Re: Whats wrong with americas medical system? [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23997733 - 01/10/17 10:03 AM (7 years, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
Psilosopherr said: I'm trying to outline where all this nonsense originates. Is it with the medical schools and people who decide on the curriculum? Is it the manufacturers combined with the insurers while having the lawmakers in their pockets?
Idk, I can grasp at straws but hoping somebody else has a better understanding or can point me to some recommended reading.
My little outline:
Pill/med supply manufacturers: Provides the symptom treatments, peddles them to doctors/hospitals, why are they so freaking expensive? Can subsidize milk but not basic medical necessities? Or not even subsidize, just negotiate non-insane pricing, more on par with pricing in every other modernized country.
Medical schools/curriculum: Teaches to treat symptoms and establish life-long customers.
Doctors: Go along with med school/manufacturers scam. They've got to know, how could they not know?
Insurance Companies: Get everybody to play the lottery by skyrocketing prices, people either need insurance or will go broke paying out of pocket. Approve only symptom treatments, and cheap less than ideal treatments.
Medical Law:
are you somehow under the impression that just because billions are spent each year on drug R/D that they have come up with a cure and they're withholding it for the almighty dollar? why would they even bother with setting broken bones and prescribing antibiotics for infections, why would they even bother to vaccinate when they'd make more money by keeping millions of people in the hospital on breathing machines by letting them contract polio
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CookieCrumbs
Fucked off to the pub


Registered: 12/10/11
Posts: 14,146
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K I found it but it won't let me link. Article is called "Doctors Tell All—and It’s Bad" on the Atlantic.
Also found this http://abcnews.go.com/Health/WellnessNews/story?id=7884555&page=1 And think it's funny. I know people are4 stupid and annoying but why would they tell you about taking herbs when you treat them like they're stupid for it? why wouldn't they ask for particular tests if they have a particular problem? I've had migraines for years and no doc has ever ordered an MRI or brain scan to see if I have a tumor.
I understand their job sucks... Being sick sucks too... Being sick and getting shitty expensive medical care is the worse. Only people I've met in hospitals that really seem to give a shit about how the patient feels is nurses.
Quote:
specialpeopleclub said: Its not that its for profit that causes the problems. There isnt competition or transparency
Yep. Medical industry has a dealwithit mentality.
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Free time is the only time
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



Registered: 02/15/12
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Re: Whats wrong with americas medical system? [Re: Prisoner#1]
#23997743 - 01/10/17 10:07 AM (7 years, 20 days ago) |
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Not as dramatic as all that, more like turning a blind eye to those qualities throughout the process and instead pursuing other qualities.
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koods
Ribbit



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Re: Whats wrong with americas medical system? [Re: Psilosopherr] 1
#23997904 - 01/10/17 11:24 AM (7 years, 20 days ago) |
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Healthcare is not a product that can be regulated by the free market. For a market to be free, participants must be free to enter and exit the marketplace. If prices are too high, the consumer must be able to decline to purchase the commodity. This is how prices are regulated by supply and demand.
Buying medical services generally is not something people do voluntarily, and often times it is a matter of life or death - the demand is inelastic. People will pay whatever it takes to get better or to save their lives. Inelastic demand is not compatible with a free market.
As long as we pretend that healthcare costs can be controlled by the marketplace, we will be screwed. The only way to control costs is to regulate the costs of services. The rest of the world has figured this out. Why can't we?
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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CookieCrumbs
Fucked off to the pub


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Re: Whats wrong with americas medical system? [Re: koods]
#23997953 - 01/10/17 11:39 AM (7 years, 20 days ago) |
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Because our leaders suck corporate cock.
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specialpeopleclub


Registered: 04/10/14
Posts: 5,584
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Re: Whats wrong with americas medical system? [Re: koods]
#23998003 - 01/10/17 11:55 AM (7 years, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
koods said: Healthcare is not a product that can be regulated by the free market. For a market to be free, participants must be free to enter and exit the marketplace. If prices are too high, the consumer must be able to decline to purchase the commodity. This is how prices are regulated by supply and demand.
Buying medical services generally is not something people do voluntarily, and often times it is a matter of life or death - the demand is inelastic. People will pay whatever it takes to get better or to save their lives. Inelastic demand is not compatible with a free market.
As long as we pretend that healthcare costs can be controlled by the marketplace, we will be screwed. The only way to control costs is to regulate the costs of services. The rest of the world has figured this out. Why can't we?
In a free market there is competition. Volunteerism has nothing to do with anything. We need food too. Should food production be nationalised?
Its like I say, an insecure progressive sees something important, and the fact instinct is that Tue government is where security lies
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Patlal
You ask too many questions



Registered: 10/09/10
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Quote:
specialpeopleclub said:
Quote:
koods said: Healthcare is not a product that can be regulated by the free market. For a market to be free, participants must be free to enter and exit the marketplace. If prices are too high, the consumer must be able to decline to purchase the commodity. This is how prices are regulated by supply and demand.
Buying medical services generally is not something people do voluntarily, and often times it is a matter of life or death - the demand is inelastic. People will pay whatever it takes to get better or to save their lives. Inelastic demand is not compatible with a free market.
As long as we pretend that healthcare costs can be controlled by the marketplace, we will be screwed. The only way to control costs is to regulate the costs of services. The rest of the world has figured this out. Why can't we?
In a free market there is competition. Volunteerism has nothing to do with anything. We need food too. Should food production be nationalised?
Its like I say, an insecure progressive sees something important, and the fact instinct is that Tue government is where security lies
In a free market there are profits and nobody wants to get poorer. Plus there are so many hospitals that its easy to know what they charge and you just match them. Then it becomes like the price of fuel. Every company is digging at different place, they're managed by different people, they have their own top secret designs and yet in the end the price difference at the pump between gas station is a couple pennies.
Private health care will always be more expensive and will always fuck up. But, you do see the doc within 10 minutes instead of waiting half an hour.
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koods
Ribbit



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We need to nationalize the insurance. The fact is insurance is a necessary part of the system because nobody can afford nor predict serious health problems. Insurance is the only way to prevent people from being bankrupted by random health problems.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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Morel Guy
Stranger


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Re: Whats wrong with americas medical system? [Re: Prisoner#1]
#23998176 - 01/10/17 01:01 PM (7 years, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
Psilosopherr said: I'm trying to outline where all this nonsense originates. Is it with the medical schools and people who decide on the curriculum? Is it the manufacturers combined with the insurers while having the lawmakers in their pockets?
Idk, I can grasp at straws but hoping somebody else has a better understanding or can point me to some recommended reading.
My little outline:
Pill/med supply manufacturers: Provides the symptom treatments, peddles them to doctors/hospitals, why are they so freaking expensive? Can subsidize milk but not basic medical necessities? Or not even subsidize, just negotiate non-insane pricing, more on par with pricing in every other modernized country.
Medical schools/curriculum: Teaches to treat symptoms and establish life-long customers.
Doctors: Go along with med school/manufacturers scam. They've got to know, how could they not know?
Insurance Companies: Get everybody to play the lottery by skyrocketing prices, people either need insurance or will go broke paying out of pocket. Approve only symptom treatments, and cheap less than ideal treatments.
Medical Law:
are you somehow under the impression that just because billions are spent each year on drug R/D that they have come up with a cure and they're withholding it for the almighty dollar? why would they even bother with setting broken bones and prescribing antibiotics for infections, why would they even bother to vaccinate when they'd make more money by keeping millions of people in the hospital on breathing machines by letting them contract polio
That's a little too obvious. But they do take natural remedies and modify the compound to put their name on it and ownership with patents.
Medical service is seen as a way to get rich. So are funeral services. These are end of the road services that all very much agree to sky rocket prices.
It's your life and your death. Where else will you turn? There's nowhere else to go. They make all the herbal remedies illegal. Can't just go to some cheap doctors basement and have heart surgery. Might be able to go to China or Mexico, but who really wants that?
I'd say the main problem is the medical community treats people that they never went thru the diagnosis themselves. Although some doctors and staff are very understanding and compassionate.
-------------------- "in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur" In filth it will be found in dung it will be found
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


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Re: Whats wrong with americas medical system? [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23998208 - 01/10/17 01:14 PM (7 years, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
Psilosopherr said: Whats wrong with americas medical system?
The government is involved where they shouldn't be.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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CookieCrumbs
Fucked off to the pub


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Re: Whats wrong with americas medical system? [Re: Morel Guy]
#23998253 - 01/10/17 01:30 PM (7 years, 20 days ago) |
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Herbal remedies aren't illegal, the medical community has bent over backwards to discredit it the last 100 years or so.
Now if they have the opportunity to make them illegal, because it might harm someone, or worse get them high, the FDA/DEA will.
And because it's not accepted medicine it's difficult to get proper dosing recommendations, to understand potential interactions, and to even get quality products. And so when people take too much of a certain herb, or it interacts with another drug or herb, they use that as proof to say they are dangerous.
Kinda the same thing with illicit drugs. They're not half as dangerous when there is accurate dosing, pure products, and responsible/monitored use. But leaving them unregulated leaves room for a fest of fuckall. And they use the natural progression of fuck all as evidence that both are evil.
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Free time is the only time
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koods
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Re: Whats wrong with americas medical system? [Re: CookieCrumbs]
#23998302 - 01/10/17 01:49 PM (7 years, 20 days ago) |
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If herbal remedies actually worked well, they would be pharmaceutical products.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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CookieCrumbs
Fucked off to the pub


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Re: Whats wrong with americas medical system? [Re: koods]
#23998411 - 01/10/17 02:34 PM (7 years, 20 days ago) |
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...they are.
They just isolate the compounds from the plants. People claim that's its because you can actually patent that, and that's likely part of the reason, but really it just makes more sense from a medical science perspective.
Aspirin, for example, is extracted from willow bark. A very crude form of preparation of aspirin was used for centuries before there was "aspirin". People react different to different substances tho, and chemicals can interact with one another and all that... So the advantage of having an aspirin isolate instead of willow bark tea is that if the patient reacts badly you know it's because of the medicine you are trying to treat them with, not some other random variable found in the plant. It also cuts down the chances of there being reactions and interactions.
Another advantage of compound isolation is the ability to manipulate it to either enhance a desired effect or provide much higher doses for more potent medicine.... Instead of expecting someone to drink 5 cups of willow bark tea they take 3 aspirin pills.
There are also theoretical disadvantages to compound isolations in plants tho. I experience it because my liver sucks and my stomach sucks. Most drugs are just too potent for me. And I find that eating a plant that my body has been designed to break down after hundreds of thousands of years of evolution is often easier on me than popping those chemical isolated pills.
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Free time is the only time
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Morel Guy
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Re: Whats wrong with americas medical system? [Re: CookieCrumbs]
#23998492 - 01/10/17 03:10 PM (7 years, 20 days ago) |
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Usually they push the isolates that arw modified to meet criteria. Sometimes the critera is less side effect, other times it's so they can own a patent.
Most of the time drugs are some high started by natural discovery. A chemical is found in nature and that starts decades of interest. They modify that natural chem every which way til they put a patent on one that fits their dogma.
Remember in medicine, nature is usually evil culprit.
-------------------- "in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur" In filth it will be found in dung it will be found
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CookieCrumbs
Fucked off to the pub


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Re: Whats wrong with americas medical system? [Re: Morel Guy]
#23998522 - 01/10/17 03:27 PM (7 years, 20 days ago) |
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Human beings always have this idea that they can make everything better. And we often do. Ime we start fucking things up by believing things are better just because we changed them, or by continuing to change after things become as close to ideal as we can get.
Wonder bread.
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Free time is the only time
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imanlyman
Oregon Coast

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Re: Whats wrong with americas medical system? [Re: CookieCrumbs]
#24006769 - 01/13/17 10:32 AM (7 years, 17 days ago) |
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lawyers
-------------------- Build a man a fire and he will be warm for the night, set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
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