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Jimmyjazz
Black Spirit



Registered: 11/18/14
Posts: 58
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Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization?
#23995739 - 01/09/17 04:42 PM (7 years, 21 days ago) |
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I have done this method with straw and wood ash. Worked like a charm for oysters. If you aren't familiar with it, you take your substrate and submerge it in water with a ph of about 11 (I used wood ash, but you can use lime as well). Aerobic life ceases and anaerobic life flourishes. You take your substrate out after about 18 hours and violin! Sterilized substrate, since the anaerobic life dies when exposed to the atmosphere.
My question here is if anyone has done this with a substrate other than straw.
-------------------- "The Meaning of Life is a play on words"
Edited by Jimmyjazz (01/19/17 06:59 PM)
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Chwyn
Bacteria Rancher


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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: Jimmyjazz]
#23996393 - 01/09/17 07:43 PM (7 years, 21 days ago) |
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Never heard of this. Ive got a ton of hardwood saw dust and lime I can try it out with. I should have some spawn ready in a week or two. Dont quote me on that though I just jumped from jars to bags, still getting used to ratios ect. I will let you know when the experiment is ready. Will post pics
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Jimmyjazz
Black Spirit



Registered: 11/18/14
Posts: 58
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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: Chwyn]
#23996401 - 01/09/17 07:46 PM (7 years, 21 days ago) |
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nice, what kinda spawn is it?
-------------------- "The Meaning of Life is a play on words"
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leschampignons
Biochemistry + Mycology


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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: Jimmyjazz]
#23996590 - 01/09/17 08:56 PM (7 years, 21 days ago) |
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I thought the idea was to wait longer - like 2-3 weeks underwater before exposing to air. This shouldn't fully sterilize, it is more of a pasteurization since some microbes can survive in both anaerobic and aerobic environments (facultative anaerobes).
It sounds like you did chemical pasteurization with lime (Ca(OH)2) to raise pH, which is another pasteurization method
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Chwyn
Bacteria Rancher


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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: Jimmyjazz]
#23997476 - 01/10/17 07:36 AM (7 years, 20 days ago) |
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Phoenix Oyster (Pleurotus pulmonarius)
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Jimmyjazz
Black Spirit



Registered: 11/18/14
Posts: 58
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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: leschampignons]
#23997709 - 01/10/17 09:50 AM (7 years, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
leschampignons said: I thought the idea was to wait longer - like 2-3 weeks underwater before exposing to air. This shouldn't fully sterilize, it is more of a pasteurization since some microbes can survive in both anaerobic and aerobic environments (facultative anaerobes).
It sounds like you did chemical pasteurization with lime (Ca(OH)2) to raise pH, which is another pasteurization method
"Hi, this is John from Aloha Medicinals. I was the one that ran the trials with the wood ashes pasteurization method as part of our diversified ag program for some of the African countries. Actually to my surprise, the wood ashes method worked better than any of the other methods we had tried, with better BE than lime or soap or hot water or steam. The fruit bodies were better shaped and better shelf life, in short they were perfect. The only real difference was they fruited a couple days later than the other methods, around 22 days for the oyster strains we were running (4 strains) while the lime and steam ones fruited at 18 or 19 days.
A few people have expressed concern about disposing of the high pH lime water. I guess I was not too clear in my instructions. If you do it right there is no residual water. What you do is calculate the amount of water you need. If you use 100 lbs of straw for example, it is going to hydrate at about 70% moisture, so the soaked weight of 100 lbs dry straw will be 330 lbs, or 230 lbs water. All you need to do is add a lime solution of 230 lbs, or about 27 gallons. The water for pasteurization then become the water for hydration. All the water is absorbed into the straw and there is no residual water to dispose of. In actual practice I like to add about 10 - 20% extra just to make it easy, I don't like to measure and it is not critical. Say you have some lime solution left over though, there is no need to dispose of it, just replenish and use again and again. It is not toxic like the hot water soak method, you can continue to use it, just add more ea time as needed. The main concern though is to use the correct type of lime. It has to be Hydrated lime, Calcium Hydroxide, and make sure it is not the high magnesium type. It should be 90%+ of Calcium Hydroxide. It is readily available, you just need to read the bag and make sure you are not getting some high Mag lime, or some Calcium Carbonate lime, THEY WILL NOT WORK for this method. The same works for soap. I hope this helps, if anyone has any questions, feel free to email me at john@alohamedicinals.com Make sure to check out the new growing supplies and cultures website, we decided to start offering the top end equipment that we use at Aloha, http://alohaculturebank.com"
-------------------- "The Meaning of Life is a play on words"
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MycoFlora
Farmer


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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: Jimmyjazz]
#24018955 - 01/18/17 01:02 AM (7 years, 12 days ago) |
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Yes, what you did was chemical pasteurization not anerobic pasteurization. I have done both. Lime pasteurization works great for some substrates, the efficacy is increased by adding a bit of calcium percarbonate. I did this with cotton seed hulls and straw. and you don't need 18 hours, I routinely did it in 8.
Never had any success with anerobic pasteurization, which is actually 'cold' fermentation. Mainly because after it's ready to be pulled out it stinks to high heaven. I mean it's truly foul. It takes 4-7 days too and even when successfully done results vary drastically.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: MycoFlora]
#24019372 - 01/18/17 08:48 AM (7 years, 12 days ago) |
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Anaerobic pasteurization isn't even really pasteurization and it doesn't yield a sterilized substrate...
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Jimmyjazz
Black Spirit



Registered: 11/18/14
Posts: 58
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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: bodhisatta]
#24023818 - 01/19/17 07:02 PM (7 years, 11 days ago) |
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it is a sterilization technique. I contacted the guy who did it originally as an experiment. he works as the chief scientific officer at aloha. If you have a consistent supply of wood ash, you can use this to make substrate for spawning oysters ONLY, unless you have a lab, then you most likely wouldn't choose this anyway for slower growing species.
-------------------- "The Meaning of Life is a play on words"
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: Jimmyjazz]
#24023933 - 01/19/17 07:34 PM (7 years, 11 days ago) |
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That's great and all but its not sterilization.
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MycoFlora
Farmer


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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: Jimmyjazz]
#24024942 - 01/20/17 08:14 AM (7 years, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
Jimmyjazz said: it is a sterilization technique. I contacted the guy who did it originally as an experiment. he works as the chief scientific officer at aloha. If you have a consistent supply of wood ash, you can use this to make substrate for spawning oysters ONLY, unless you have a lab, then you most likely wouldn't choose this anyway for slower growing species.
It is definitely not a sterilization technique or you would have to do it under flow. There is nothing sterile about mixing in a bunch of wood ash in a barrel of water. It works great for oysters, as you said, but as a pasteurization technique.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: MycoFlora]
#24024950 - 01/20/17 08:18 AM (7 years, 10 days ago) |
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Aloha does two sterilization runs on their spawn. They know what sterile is they would never call pasteurization a sterilization process
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Jimmyjazz
Black Spirit



Registered: 11/18/14
Posts: 58
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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: bodhisatta]
#24025507 - 01/20/17 12:27 PM (7 years, 10 days ago) |
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just gonna leave this here.

-------------------- "The Meaning of Life is a play on words"
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MycoFlora
Farmer


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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: Jimmyjazz]
#24025569 - 01/20/17 12:57 PM (7 years, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
Jimmyjazz said: just gonna leave this here.


Funny because I used lime 'pasteurization' for years in unsterile conditions without contamination. Lime and ash are both used for the exact same thing, which is to raise the ph. I also steam sterilize 300lbs of sawdust sub every single week without contimaniation, so i have no idea what he's talking about there. This email seems like it's being presented out of context, seeing as half of it doesn't make sense.
Are you inoculating the ash treated sub under flow? You didn't say before. Ash and lime treatment are damn near the exact same process and I open air inoculated thousands of pounds of sub this way with zero contamination. Just for shits and gigs, sterilize some sub in your pc then try to inoculate in open air. Spoiler alert! It will contimanate.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: MycoFlora]
#24025638 - 01/20/17 01:14 PM (7 years, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
Jimmyjazz said: just gonna leave this here.


The confusion is in what sterile means.
Anything past pasteurization is sterilization. Boiling water sterilizes it. Then why do we need pressure cookers.
The high school definition of sterilization doesn't work in the real world.
170F water for 10m ran through a clean pipe is "sterilization" for vinters hoses in brewing and wine making. Because it's effectively sterile for all intensive purposes. You'd have to run 250F steam thru the pipe for 15m to truely call it sterile. But that would wreck equipment
Chemical pasteurization of substrate isn't sterilization. However it behaves like a sterilized substrate since air Bourne contamination will inoculate it
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Roostorf
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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: bodhisatta]
#24025706 - 01/20/17 01:47 PM (7 years, 10 days ago) |
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So do you rinse the straw or are mushrooms okay with the high pH?
-------------------- Learning something new everyday Would love to trade medicinal and edible vultures and spores
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Chwyn
Bacteria Rancher


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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: Roostorf]
#24026200 - 01/20/17 04:45 PM (7 years, 10 days ago) |
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Oyster mushrooms are tolerant. I cant speak for anything else though.
Also my spawn bag went south. starting MORE spores on plates then going to the trusted jars.
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Roostorf
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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: Chwyn]
#24026587 - 01/20/17 07:21 PM (7 years, 10 days ago) |
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Im new to this, but i have some phoenix spawn that will hopefully be ready soon, im gonna try a few methods and see if i can get something to work. I have a barrel of straw & feathers soaking and i added a bucket of ash from the fireplace,
-------------------- Learning something new everyday Would love to trade medicinal and edible vultures and spores
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Jimmyjazz
Black Spirit



Registered: 11/18/14
Posts: 58
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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: Roostorf]
#24027575 - 01/21/17 08:40 AM (7 years, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
Roostorf said: So do you rinse the straw or are mushrooms okay with the high pH?
you do not rinse, this defeats the purpose of the soak.
-------------------- "The Meaning of Life is a play on words"
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Jimmyjazz
Black Spirit



Registered: 11/18/14
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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: Chwyn]
#24027581 - 01/21/17 08:43 AM (7 years, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
Chwyn said: Oyster mushrooms are tolerant. I cant speak for anything else though.
Also my spawn bag went south. starting MORE spores on plates then going to the trusted jars.
did you use grain spawn to straw? when i did this I used sawdust spawn and mixed it with the straw on a big tarp then loaded up a bunch of nursery pots and set them in a greenhouse. I would guess that grain is too nutritious/has smaller surface area than sawdust. I hope you didn't try to inoculate soaked straw with agar.
-------------------- "The Meaning of Life is a play on words"
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Jimmyjazz
Black Spirit



Registered: 11/18/14
Posts: 58
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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: Roostorf]
#24027590 - 01/21/17 08:46 AM (7 years, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
Roostorf said: Im new to this, but i have some phoenix spawn that will hopefully be ready soon, im gonna try a few methods and see if i can get something to work. I have a barrel of straw & feathers soaking and i added a bucket of ash from the fireplace,
you only need to soak for 8-24 (24 is too long IMO)hours, but you need to make sure that the water reaches around 11pH for it to work, which IME requires SO MUCH ash. Hydrated lime also works, but at that point why not use a more conventional method? The idea when I did this was that the materials were all free and already at hand.
-------------------- "The Meaning of Life is a play on words"
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MycoFlora
Farmer


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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: Jimmyjazz]
#24028824 - 01/21/17 06:00 PM (7 years, 9 days ago) |
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Or to do it as cheaply and effectively as possible. For the amount it costs for one propane run to heat pasteurize you could buy a month's supply of hydrated lime. Lime is very effective and cheap!
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Roostorf
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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: MycoFlora]
#24028916 - 01/21/17 06:46 PM (7 years, 9 days ago) |
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That is a great point worth considering and the yeilds are also higher than steam as well
-------------------- Learning something new everyday Would love to trade medicinal and edible vultures and spores
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Jimmyjazz
Black Spirit



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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: Roostorf]
#24030132 - 01/22/17 10:26 AM (7 years, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
MycoFlora said: Or to do it as cheaply and effectively as possible. For the amount it costs for one propane run to heat pasteurize you could buy a month's supply of hydrated lime. Lime is very effective and cheap!
A very good point. The email was by basic definition out of context, but I wasn't misconstruing anything, it was a long thread so I just put the part where he said it was sterilized. Anyway, he described a method where you use the right amount of soaking fluid to rehydrate the substrate, so you don't have any runoff. It made me think of an experiment to try, where you add the right amount to sterilize and hydrate, and then seal the bag, later inoculating it with LC. This would be more for shiitake or lions mane.
-------------------- "The Meaning of Life is a play on words"
Edited by Jimmyjazz (01/22/17 10:27 AM)
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MycoFlora
Farmer


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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: Jimmyjazz]
#24032247 - 01/23/17 12:05 AM (7 years, 8 days ago) |
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Yes on the aloha page there is a link to a diagram of the shower/water pump system for lime baths.
As far as hydrating with a precise amount of water/lime Aleon did a nice write up on this quite some time ago. https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19367080/fpart/1/vc/1 I have tried it myself amd it works well, but not very well for slower species like shiitake. You don't need to seal the bag before hand, it won't contaminate in open air because it is not sterile. Just use grain or sawdust spawn no need for the lc. Again, I did 1000's of lbs of sub with lime in open air with 0 contams.
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Jimmyjazz
Black Spirit



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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: MycoFlora]
#24033272 - 01/23/17 01:35 PM (7 years, 7 days ago) |
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Yeah right so the purpose of the experiment with the sealed bag/LC is that in theory it should be ok for shiitakes or lions mane given that it should present the mycelium with substrate with 0 competition. I don't know how well it will work but I am going to give it a shot in a few weeks, so I will post results for consideration.
-------------------- "The Meaning of Life is a play on words"
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Roostorf
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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: Jimmyjazz]
#24033434 - 01/23/17 02:47 PM (7 years, 7 days ago) |
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I have been pondering the idea of mixing a sealed bag significantly drier than youd want, then innoculating with a bunch of extra lc to see if that would speed things along, that might be doable with sealed lime bags if it works
-------------------- Learning something new everyday Would love to trade medicinal and edible vultures and spores
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MycoFlora
Farmer


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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: Jimmyjazz]
#24038502 - 01/25/17 12:10 PM (7 years, 5 days ago) |
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You would have a much easier time going lc>grain>bulk sub. Ive seen lc>to bulk sub work, but only for faster species like oysters. Adding lime to the mix then inoculating with a slow running species through lc...youd need a lot of lc just to get it to colonize. It just seems lazy. But if it's just for fun, hell, why not.
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Chwyn
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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: MycoFlora]
#24072712 - 02/07/17 03:03 PM (6 years, 11 months ago) |
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Just got done with a straw and alfalfa log soaked in ph 13 wood ash water for 2 days. The log is WAY too wet so it will probably trich out. I might make a thread if I get a flush out of it. Ive never made a straw log before and I usually do steam pasteurization on my substrate bags
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theoldman
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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: Jimmyjazz]
#24168816 - 03/17/17 12:24 AM (6 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Jimmyjazz said: nice, what kinda spawn is it?
I was able to colonize Agaricus Blazei successfully using your lime pasteurization method. I had to add soap to aid dispersal of the lime into compost. No soak time was utilized. Ratio of spawn was high, but I did not keep tract of the ratio. I thought it would be a failure.
I attempted today to improve on the tek, but failed to bring my compost up to temp. with the winter weather. I had contaminated compost with pest fungi.
Have you tried any other types beside oyster? I have had mixed results with King Oyster and Shiitake, Popular.
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trscstghst
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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: theoldman]
#24245198 - 04/15/17 12:51 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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I have used the other end of the ph scale to ferment kitchen wates. this was used to feed a worm bin.
afer I began feeding "bokashi" to my worms, I did notice an increase in fungal growth in the casting's tea.
I do examine my teas under a microscope.
-------------------- Why use up the forests which were centuries in the making and the mines which required ages to lay down, if we can get the equivalent of forest and mineral products in the annual growth of the hemp fields? o Henry Ford
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Stipe-n Cap


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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: Jimmyjazz]
#25353164 - 07/28/18 11:13 PM (5 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Jimmyjazz said: .....My question here is if anyone has done this with a substrate other than straw.
Cold pasteurization.
Wood chips:
https://www.milkwood.net/2013/07/10/making-a-wood-chip-mushroom-garden/
https://www.alohamedicinals.com/low-tech-growing.html
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th.maso


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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: Jimmyjazz]
#25385692 - 08/13/18 01:15 PM (5 years, 5 months ago) |
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Anyone have any knowledge of high pressure CO2 sterilization? I’m at work and haven’t had a chance to read the paper, but does anyone think there’s viability in it?
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/0f0f/2ef32f76893b2fb75d105c41920ba2ae6377.pdf
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: th.maso]
#25385742 - 08/13/18 01:39 PM (5 years, 5 months ago) |
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I've read about it being tried with beer but getting back to atmospheric pressure is the hard part. Any fluid gets force carbonated and then foams like mad on the way back. Also makes carbonic acid.
I would say there's no way it will ever be useful for even a farm type situation
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