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Jimmyjazz
Black Spirit



Registered: 11/18/14
Posts: 58
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Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization?
#23995739 - 01/09/17 04:42 PM (7 years, 21 days ago) |
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I have done this method with straw and wood ash. Worked like a charm for oysters. If you aren't familiar with it, you take your substrate and submerge it in water with a ph of about 11 (I used wood ash, but you can use lime as well). Aerobic life ceases and anaerobic life flourishes. You take your substrate out after about 18 hours and violin! Sterilized substrate, since the anaerobic life dies when exposed to the atmosphere.
My question here is if anyone has done this with a substrate other than straw.
-------------------- "The Meaning of Life is a play on words"
Edited by Jimmyjazz (01/19/17 06:59 PM)
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Chwyn
Bacteria Rancher


Registered: 08/21/16
Posts: 1,238
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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: Jimmyjazz]
#23996393 - 01/09/17 07:43 PM (7 years, 21 days ago) |
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Never heard of this. Ive got a ton of hardwood saw dust and lime I can try it out with. I should have some spawn ready in a week or two. Dont quote me on that though I just jumped from jars to bags, still getting used to ratios ect. I will let you know when the experiment is ready. Will post pics
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Jimmyjazz
Black Spirit



Registered: 11/18/14
Posts: 58
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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: Chwyn]
#23996401 - 01/09/17 07:46 PM (7 years, 21 days ago) |
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nice, what kinda spawn is it?
-------------------- "The Meaning of Life is a play on words"
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leschampignons
Biochemistry + Mycology


Registered: 08/30/13
Posts: 1,583
Loc: NY/NJ/ME
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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: Jimmyjazz]
#23996590 - 01/09/17 08:56 PM (7 years, 21 days ago) |
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I thought the idea was to wait longer - like 2-3 weeks underwater before exposing to air. This shouldn't fully sterilize, it is more of a pasteurization since some microbes can survive in both anaerobic and aerobic environments (facultative anaerobes).
It sounds like you did chemical pasteurization with lime (Ca(OH)2) to raise pH, which is another pasteurization method
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Chwyn
Bacteria Rancher


Registered: 08/21/16
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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: Jimmyjazz]
#23997476 - 01/10/17 07:36 AM (7 years, 20 days ago) |
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Phoenix Oyster (Pleurotus pulmonarius)
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Jimmyjazz
Black Spirit



Registered: 11/18/14
Posts: 58
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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: leschampignons]
#23997709 - 01/10/17 09:50 AM (7 years, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
leschampignons said: I thought the idea was to wait longer - like 2-3 weeks underwater before exposing to air. This shouldn't fully sterilize, it is more of a pasteurization since some microbes can survive in both anaerobic and aerobic environments (facultative anaerobes).
It sounds like you did chemical pasteurization with lime (Ca(OH)2) to raise pH, which is another pasteurization method
"Hi, this is John from Aloha Medicinals. I was the one that ran the trials with the wood ashes pasteurization method as part of our diversified ag program for some of the African countries. Actually to my surprise, the wood ashes method worked better than any of the other methods we had tried, with better BE than lime or soap or hot water or steam. The fruit bodies were better shaped and better shelf life, in short they were perfect. The only real difference was they fruited a couple days later than the other methods, around 22 days for the oyster strains we were running (4 strains) while the lime and steam ones fruited at 18 or 19 days.
A few people have expressed concern about disposing of the high pH lime water. I guess I was not too clear in my instructions. If you do it right there is no residual water. What you do is calculate the amount of water you need. If you use 100 lbs of straw for example, it is going to hydrate at about 70% moisture, so the soaked weight of 100 lbs dry straw will be 330 lbs, or 230 lbs water. All you need to do is add a lime solution of 230 lbs, or about 27 gallons. The water for pasteurization then become the water for hydration. All the water is absorbed into the straw and there is no residual water to dispose of. In actual practice I like to add about 10 - 20% extra just to make it easy, I don't like to measure and it is not critical. Say you have some lime solution left over though, there is no need to dispose of it, just replenish and use again and again. It is not toxic like the hot water soak method, you can continue to use it, just add more ea time as needed. The main concern though is to use the correct type of lime. It has to be Hydrated lime, Calcium Hydroxide, and make sure it is not the high magnesium type. It should be 90%+ of Calcium Hydroxide. It is readily available, you just need to read the bag and make sure you are not getting some high Mag lime, or some Calcium Carbonate lime, THEY WILL NOT WORK for this method. The same works for soap. I hope this helps, if anyone has any questions, feel free to email me at john@alohamedicinals.com Make sure to check out the new growing supplies and cultures website, we decided to start offering the top end equipment that we use at Aloha, http://alohaculturebank.com"
-------------------- "The Meaning of Life is a play on words"
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MycoFlora
Farmer


Registered: 10/06/14
Posts: 309
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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: Jimmyjazz]
#24018955 - 01/18/17 01:02 AM (7 years, 12 days ago) |
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Yes, what you did was chemical pasteurization not anerobic pasteurization. I have done both. Lime pasteurization works great for some substrates, the efficacy is increased by adding a bit of calcium percarbonate. I did this with cotton seed hulls and straw. and you don't need 18 hours, I routinely did it in 8.
Never had any success with anerobic pasteurization, which is actually 'cold' fermentation. Mainly because after it's ready to be pulled out it stinks to high heaven. I mean it's truly foul. It takes 4-7 days too and even when successfully done results vary drastically.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: MycoFlora]
#24019372 - 01/18/17 08:48 AM (7 years, 12 days ago) |
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Anaerobic pasteurization isn't even really pasteurization and it doesn't yield a sterilized substrate...
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Jimmyjazz
Black Spirit



Registered: 11/18/14
Posts: 58
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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: bodhisatta]
#24023818 - 01/19/17 07:02 PM (7 years, 11 days ago) |
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it is a sterilization technique. I contacted the guy who did it originally as an experiment. he works as the chief scientific officer at aloha. If you have a consistent supply of wood ash, you can use this to make substrate for spawning oysters ONLY, unless you have a lab, then you most likely wouldn't choose this anyway for slower growing species.
-------------------- "The Meaning of Life is a play on words"
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: Jimmyjazz]
#24023933 - 01/19/17 07:34 PM (7 years, 11 days ago) |
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That's great and all but its not sterilization.
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MycoFlora
Farmer


Registered: 10/06/14
Posts: 309
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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: Jimmyjazz]
#24024942 - 01/20/17 08:14 AM (7 years, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
Jimmyjazz said: it is a sterilization technique. I contacted the guy who did it originally as an experiment. he works as the chief scientific officer at aloha. If you have a consistent supply of wood ash, you can use this to make substrate for spawning oysters ONLY, unless you have a lab, then you most likely wouldn't choose this anyway for slower growing species.
It is definitely not a sterilization technique or you would have to do it under flow. There is nothing sterile about mixing in a bunch of wood ash in a barrel of water. It works great for oysters, as you said, but as a pasteurization technique.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: MycoFlora]
#24024950 - 01/20/17 08:18 AM (7 years, 10 days ago) |
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Aloha does two sterilization runs on their spawn. They know what sterile is they would never call pasteurization a sterilization process
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Jimmyjazz
Black Spirit



Registered: 11/18/14
Posts: 58
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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: bodhisatta]
#24025507 - 01/20/17 12:27 PM (7 years, 10 days ago) |
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just gonna leave this here.

-------------------- "The Meaning of Life is a play on words"
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MycoFlora
Farmer


Registered: 10/06/14
Posts: 309
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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: Jimmyjazz]
#24025569 - 01/20/17 12:57 PM (7 years, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
Jimmyjazz said: just gonna leave this here.


Funny because I used lime 'pasteurization' for years in unsterile conditions without contamination. Lime and ash are both used for the exact same thing, which is to raise the ph. I also steam sterilize 300lbs of sawdust sub every single week without contimaniation, so i have no idea what he's talking about there. This email seems like it's being presented out of context, seeing as half of it doesn't make sense.
Are you inoculating the ash treated sub under flow? You didn't say before. Ash and lime treatment are damn near the exact same process and I open air inoculated thousands of pounds of sub this way with zero contamination. Just for shits and gigs, sterilize some sub in your pc then try to inoculate in open air. Spoiler alert! It will contimanate.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: MycoFlora]
#24025638 - 01/20/17 01:14 PM (7 years, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
Jimmyjazz said: just gonna leave this here.


The confusion is in what sterile means.
Anything past pasteurization is sterilization. Boiling water sterilizes it. Then why do we need pressure cookers.
The high school definition of sterilization doesn't work in the real world.
170F water for 10m ran through a clean pipe is "sterilization" for vinters hoses in brewing and wine making. Because it's effectively sterile for all intensive purposes. You'd have to run 250F steam thru the pipe for 15m to truely call it sterile. But that would wreck equipment
Chemical pasteurization of substrate isn't sterilization. However it behaves like a sterilized substrate since air Bourne contamination will inoculate it
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Roostorf
Farming Fisherman


Registered: 11/22/16
Posts: 113
Loc: Humboldt
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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: bodhisatta]
#24025706 - 01/20/17 01:47 PM (7 years, 10 days ago) |
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So do you rinse the straw or are mushrooms okay with the high pH?
-------------------- Learning something new everyday Would love to trade medicinal and edible vultures and spores
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Chwyn
Bacteria Rancher


Registered: 08/21/16
Posts: 1,238
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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: Roostorf]
#24026200 - 01/20/17 04:45 PM (7 years, 10 days ago) |
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Oyster mushrooms are tolerant. I cant speak for anything else though.
Also my spawn bag went south. starting MORE spores on plates then going to the trusted jars.
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Roostorf
Farming Fisherman


Registered: 11/22/16
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Loc: Humboldt
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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: Chwyn]
#24026587 - 01/20/17 07:21 PM (7 years, 10 days ago) |
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Im new to this, but i have some phoenix spawn that will hopefully be ready soon, im gonna try a few methods and see if i can get something to work. I have a barrel of straw & feathers soaking and i added a bucket of ash from the fireplace,
-------------------- Learning something new everyday Would love to trade medicinal and edible vultures and spores
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Jimmyjazz
Black Spirit



Registered: 11/18/14
Posts: 58
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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: Roostorf]
#24027575 - 01/21/17 08:40 AM (7 years, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
Roostorf said: So do you rinse the straw or are mushrooms okay with the high pH?
you do not rinse, this defeats the purpose of the soak.
-------------------- "The Meaning of Life is a play on words"
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Jimmyjazz
Black Spirit



Registered: 11/18/14
Posts: 58
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Re: Has anyone attempted anaerobic sterilization? [Re: Chwyn]
#24027581 - 01/21/17 08:43 AM (7 years, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
Chwyn said: Oyster mushrooms are tolerant. I cant speak for anything else though.
Also my spawn bag went south. starting MORE spores on plates then going to the trusted jars.
did you use grain spawn to straw? when i did this I used sawdust spawn and mixed it with the straw on a big tarp then loaded up a bunch of nursery pots and set them in a greenhouse. I would guess that grain is too nutritious/has smaller surface area than sawdust. I hope you didn't try to inoculate soaked straw with agar.
-------------------- "The Meaning of Life is a play on words"
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