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OfflineTedTheHighlighter
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Quick question
    #23988795 - 01/07/17 08:45 AM (7 years, 23 days ago)

How long can grain jars last after preparation? Basically I want to know if you can prepare rye grain jars and have them sit for a few weeks or more before you inoculate them


--------------------
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InvisibleZiran
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Re: Quick question [Re: TedTheHighlighter]
    #23988798 - 01/07/17 08:48 AM (7 years, 23 days ago)

fresh is the best.


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Re: Quick question [Re: Ziran]
    #23988818 - 01/07/17 09:00 AM (7 years, 23 days ago)

I once left sterilized grain jars inside the pc for 3 weeks. some lids got all rusty and shit but from what I remember theyre still good and no problems occurred.

but yea... fresh is always always good.


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Quick question [Re: pablokabute]
    #23988887 - 01/07/17 09:21 AM (7 years, 23 days ago)

We sterilize for a window of opportunity. Sterilization doesn't mean what they teach in school.

Also some endospores can slowly repair themselves even after being destroyed by wet heat sterilization. Their dna can literally put itself back together.

This is why we sterilize and inoculate within a day or two


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OfflineTerpfreak
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Re: Quick question [Re: bodhisatta]
    #23988954 - 01/07/17 09:42 AM (7 years, 23 days ago)

Will putting them in the fridge help?


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Quick question [Re: Terpfreak]
    #23988992 - 01/07/17 09:58 AM (7 years, 23 days ago)

Won't hurt.


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Re: Quick question [Re: bodhisatta]
    #23989071 - 01/07/17 10:29 AM (7 years, 23 days ago)

seriously?

DNA can repair itself like that? thats some sci fi shit right there!

Incredible.

:mindblown:


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Re: Quick question [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #23989099 - 01/07/17 10:39 AM (7 years, 23 days ago)

Ill find some articles


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Invisiblefilthyknees
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Re: Quick question [Re: bodhisatta]
    #23989143 - 01/07/17 10:52 AM (7 years, 23 days ago)

I'm completely OK waiting a few weeks before innoc.


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InvisibleRakin
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Re: Quick question [Re: filthyknees]
    #23989219 - 01/07/17 11:14 AM (7 years, 23 days ago)

So what about the pre sterilized sub you can buy? How long has that been setting around?


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Re: Quick question [Re: Rakin]
    #23989227 - 01/07/17 11:16 AM (7 years, 23 days ago)

the shorter time is best.

The more u wait, the more chances for infections to take over before spores do.

To bodhi: some articles would be great. sounds quite fascinating :nerd:


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Re: Quick question [Re: filthyknees] * 2
    #23989258 - 01/07/17 11:27 AM (7 years, 23 days ago)

http://mmbr.asm.org/content/76/3/530/F7.large.jpg

there's what they call an "SOS response" even after wet heat damage to dna the cell can try to repair broken DNA before germination.

Quote:

The expression of and role played by RecA in protecting sporulating cells of Bacillus subtilis from DNA damage has been determined....

...RecA activates the SOS response thus providing sporangia with the repair machinery to process DNA lesions that may compromise the spatio-temporal expression of genes that are essential for efficient spore formation.



https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26930481
this one goes over the actual biochemical processes involved in repair

Quote:

The DNA in dormant spores of Bacillus subtilis as well as other Bacillus species is extremely well protected against damage resulting from treatments such as desiccation, heat, oxidizing agents, and UV and gamma radiation. This high degree of DNA protection is a major factor in the survival of spores of these species, not only when subjected to the treatments noted above, but also when incubated under common environmental conditions for many years. Factors that play major roles in overall spore resistance include the low permeability of spores to toxic chemicals and the decreased spore-core water content. However, although decreased spore permeability and water content appear to at least partially protect spore DNA from oxidative damage, these factors seem to play little or no role in protecting spore DNA from heat damage. The major factor preventing damage to spore DNA is the saturation of this DNA with a novel group of small, acid-soluble proteins of the alpha/beta-type whose binding greatly alters DNA's chemical and enzymatic reactivity as well as its UV photochemistry. Binding of these proteins is also a key factor in spore DNA resistance to desiccation, heat, oxidizing agents, and UV radiation.



https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8561462
these compounds that bind to DNA are like if you will a enamel coating, or like the mylenation on your axons.
these protect it from the wet heat, and also in this pool is enzymes can repair damage that occurs because of wet heat once germination begins.

Quote:

Spores of various Bacillus and Clostridium species are among the most resistant life forms known. Since the spores of some species are causative agents of much food spoilage, food poisoning, and human disease, and the spores of Bacillus anthracis are a major bioweapon, there is much interest in the mechanisms of spore resistance and how these spores can be killed. This article will discuss the factors involved in spore resistance to agents such as wet and dry heat, desiccation, UV and γ-radiation, enzymes that hydrolyze bacterial cell walls, and a variety of toxic chemicals, including genotoxic agents, oxidizing agents, aldehydes, acid, and alkali. These resistance factors include the outer layers of the spore, such as the thick proteinaceous coat that detoxifies reactive chemicals; the relatively impermeable inner spore membrane that restricts access of toxic chemicals to the spore core containing the spore's DNA and most enzymes; the low water content and high level of dipicolinic acid in the spore core that protect core macromolecules from the effects of heat and desiccation; the saturation of spore DNA with a novel group of proteins that protect the DNA against heat, genotoxic chemicals, and radiation; and the repair of radiation damage to DNA when spores germinate and return to life. Despite their extreme resistance, spores can be killed, including by damage to DNA, crucial spore proteins, the spore's inner membrane, and one or more components of the spore germination apparatus.



https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26104355

though spores can be fucked enough to not even be able to germinate in the first place

consider this thought experiment

we sterilize to 7 logs of kill that's a typical SAL sterility assurance level
that's 99.9999999% killed
so if you start with 1,000,000 heat resistant endospores
that means you end up with 0.1 spores left.
obviously you can't have a tenth of a spore so it's considered effectively sterilized.
say you started with a CFU in your grains of 10 billion, you could have thousands of semi-viable spores leftover
we don't really know what we're starting with so it's best to inoculate right away.

in pharma and hospital work they do 7 logs of kill after hitting theoretical 0 thus having a 1 in 10,000,000 chance of a survivable spore if you estimate the starting population of CFU at one million that would be 13 logs of kill overall, 6 to get to 0 and then 7 more to get to a one in a ten million chance


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Re: Quick question [Re: bodhisatta]
    #23989315 - 01/07/17 11:46 AM (7 years, 23 days ago)

incredible!

:incredible:

Bacillis is one hard core mofo :eek:

Now i know why PCing grains is so critical :thumbup:


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Quick question [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #23989339 - 01/07/17 11:54 AM (7 years, 23 days ago)

3 billion years of trial and error will get you there


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OfflineTedTheHighlighter
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Re: Quick question [Re: bodhisatta] * 1
    #23989636 - 01/07/17 01:58 PM (7 years, 23 days ago)

Nice, I got an answer to my question and a mind blowing fact


--------------------
Alice asked the Cheshire Cat, who was sitting in a tree, “What road do I take?”

The cat asked, “Where do you want to go?”

“I don’t know,” Alice answered.

“Then,” said the cat, “it really doesn’t matter, does it?”


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Re: Quick question [Re: TedTheHighlighter]
    #23989705 - 01/07/17 02:33 PM (7 years, 23 days ago)

Shroomery: Always there to blow yer mind.


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