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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23987951 - 01/06/17 10:13 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:

blingbling said:

Now we live in a vast and ever expanding universe, largely hostile to life and with nothing we can peg the meaning of our lives onto.




I wonder why we might consider the universe "hostile" to life.

Each moment of our life, thousands of biological processes work to keep us alive.

When life doesn't conform to our expectations, should we curse it?

Our so called "search for meaning" is the road to Hell.




Then we are on a road to hell because everyone knows what it means to search for meaning. If you had have asked people about their "search for meaning" in the middle ages they would have just look at you like you were mentally challenged. The idea that life could lack meaning is very new.

Also, as far as I am aware most of the known universe cannot support life, so the majority of the universe is therefor hostile to life.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.

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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: sudly]
    #23987962 - 01/06/17 10:16 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
I like to think we live in a heaven on Earth in a hell that is the universe.

For me it's a perspective I can look to for gratitude and appreciation that I have a chance to live in such a beautiful world in such a hostile universe.




Its important to be grateful for what we have, but we still have a need to place ourselves in the universe in a way that positions us as meaningful players in a meaningful universe. Without that we encounter existential dilemmas that can be utilised for horrible purposes.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.

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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
Male

Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,079
Loc: USA Flag
Last seen: 38 minutes, 13 seconds
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #23987974 - 01/06/17 10:21 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

If one desires to live on Mars, I understand how you can view the universe as hostile.

Some people consider it very wise to abandon the search for "meaning".

When you really look deeply at this egocentric urge, it's wacky silliness.

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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling] * 1
    #23987976 - 01/06/17 10:22 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

I think we need a way to appreciate the destructive power of the universe, but this is very difficult.

I can yammer on about how we should appreciate the destructive power of the universe as a creative force, but when you are holding your dead child in your arms you would have to be some kind of saint to find this comforting. Most people need more than that, like a heaven where you are reunited with everyone in bliss and harmony. That's what religion used to offer, and that is what we now lack.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23987985 - 01/06/17 10:25 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
If one desires to live on Mars, I understand how you can view the universe as hostile.

Some people consider it very wise to abandon the search for "meaning".

When you really look deeply at this egocentric urge, it's wacky silliness.




I don't think it is wacky silliness, I think it is a totally normal thing for people to do. All cultures have stories they tell themselves in order to find their place in the universe. It is egocentric, but we are naturally egocentric and trying to not be egocentric is to engage in an up-hill battle that for most of human history was not even attempted.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesudly
Quasar Praiser


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 11,069
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling] * 1
    #23988021 - 01/06/17 10:37 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

There may be no inherent meanings to life but there is definitely value in life and a purpose which is that to live.

The universe is hostile to life because your blood will boil in a vacuum. Here on Earth that doesn't happen so it is essentially a relative heaven.

When you people say there is no meaning to life all I hear is that you have found no value or meaning in your own life and that's pretty depressing to hear.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
Male

Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,079
Loc: USA Flag
Last seen: 38 minutes, 13 seconds
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #23988032 - 01/06/17 10:42 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Anger, greed, jealousy, and envy are seen by many to be "totally normal".

(To abandon this notion is not an "up-hill battle")

To maintain this perspective creates and supports suffering.

And yes, we are very very good at that!

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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
Male

Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,079
Loc: USA Flag
Last seen: 38 minutes, 13 seconds
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: sudly]
    #23988036 - 01/06/17 10:43 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

sudly said:

When you people say there is no meaning to life all I hear is that you have found no value or meaning in your own life . . .




amen

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Offlineviktor
psychotechnician
Male User Gallery


Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 4,293
Loc: New Zealand Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: deff] * 2
    #23988039 - 01/06/17 10:45 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deff said:
after all what is the rational evidence that our rationality is rational? :smile:




To me this is an extremely neglected question - if you don't know what the purpose of existence is, you cannot say what is rational, for in order for something to be rational it must accord with reality.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
Male

Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,079
Loc: USA Flag
Last seen: 38 minutes, 13 seconds
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: viktor]
    #23988081 - 01/06/17 11:03 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

viktor said:

. . . if you don't know what the purpose of existence is, you cannot say what is rational, for in order for something to be rational it must accord with reality.




Does this relate to religion?

Religious people say stuff like, "My purpose is to glorify God."

Which, for them, makes everything in life rational.

Once you have a goal, everything seems to make sense.

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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: sudly]
    #23988279 - 01/07/17 12:31 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
There may be no inherent meanings to life but there is definitely value in life and a purpose which is that to live.

The universe is hostile to life because your blood will boil in a vacuum. Here on Earth that doesn't happen so it is essentially a relative heaven.

When you people say there is no meaning to life all I hear is that you have found no value or meaning in your own life and that's pretty depressing to hear.


t
I'm not saying life has no meaning. I couldn't possibly know that. I'm saying that the common notion of that life could possibly have no meaning is very new historically speaking, and that the introduction of this possiblity has caused some problems. Your argument is essentially an ad hominem. You assume too much.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23988281 - 01/07/17 12:32 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Anger, greed, jealousy, and envy are seen by many to be "totally normal".

(To abandon this notion is not an "up-hill battle")

To maintain this perspective creates and supports suffering.

And yes, we are very very good at that!




We are also very good at denying reality to suit our own purposes.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesudly
Quasar Praiser


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 11,069
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #23988513 - 01/07/17 03:58 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Then fill me in.

Quote:

blingbling said: You have to ignore some of the facts of science, disregard rationality and look within your own subjective mindscape to create a meaningful existence these days.




Care to explain what this means, or what facts of science need to be ignored to be able to have a meaningful existence? 

Quote:

blingbling said: we still have a need to place ourselves in the universe in a way that positions us as meaningful players in a meaningful universe.




Can't we be meaningful players in a meaningless universe?


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Offlinebeforethedawn
Registered: 06/19/16
Posts: 1,859
Last seen: 4 years, 6 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: deff]
    #23988517 - 01/07/17 04:03 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deff said:
Hmm well people do have personal spiritual experiences which demonstrate to them that there is more than the current physicalist models allow for. And not just experiences on drugs, but also in meditation, or other states of being. I think it is very premature to declare that the current scientific models disprove and exclude any room for the spiritual without someone being irrational. A lot of what passes as rationality is simply following the same grooves of thought that create the current models - after all what is the rational evidence that our rationality is rational? :smile:



Indeed. Interesting words. Science hasn't necessarily improved life in terms of satisfying the human need for happiness, and may lead to our annihilation.

Some rationality . . .


--------------------
Hostile humankind
Can't you see you're fucking blind?

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Invisiblesudly
Quasar Praiser


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 11,069
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: beforethedawn]
    #23988520 - 01/07/17 04:08 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

50+ years of extra life is plenty of time for happiness.



--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,841
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: viktor]
    #23988614 - 01/07/17 06:13 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
Quote:

deff said:
after all what is the rational evidence that our rationality is rational? :smile:




To me this is an extremely neglected question - if you don't know what the purpose of existence is, you cannot say what is rational, for in order for something to be rational it must accord with reality.




I don't think that the "model" of rationality requires a purposed point of view.

whether or not a belief system is fundamental (and skewing the observations), each view is contextual, and the consensus can address that.

For a view to have some validity ("rational" being interpreted here to mean that some consistently clear story connects the parts of the view - ergo revealing validation) the individual can intentionally observe without prejudice by use of "the middle way" - techniques for self-tempered thinking.

a "middle way" approach is a 'rational' one without any assumption of any primal cause or purpose, because it is contextually consistent and continuously self-tempered.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: viktor]
    #23989215 - 01/07/17 11:13 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

human beings are selectively rational. they are not entirely rational, even our rationality is only part-rational, the rest that leads us is emotional & physical.

PS: yeah, there's a definite turn to individualism happening but people seem to refuse to admit to the fact that they are always going to be a part of a collective, which has it's fair-share of problems to tackle, all of which require more than the attempt at separation, to actually address.

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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: sudly]
    #23989591 - 01/07/17 01:35 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Then fill me in.

Quote:

blingbling said: You have to ignore some of the facts of science, disregard rationality and look within your own subjective mindscape to create a meaningful existence these days.




Care to explain what this means, or what facts of science need to be ignored to be able to have a meaningful existence? 

Quote:

blingbling said: we still have a need to place ourselves in the universe in a way that positions us as meaningful players in a meaningful universe.




Can't we be meaningful players in a meaningless universe?




It is difficult to maintain meaning at the cosmic level when the facts of evolution (that we are breath gasping, fornicating assemblages of biological protoplasm) and the facts of astronomy (that we are small and likely insignificant creatures compared to the enormous forces at play in the universe) are taken into account. You are a small animal hurtling through space on a rock that will likely be burnt up by an expanding sun destroying all memory that you ever existed. Who do you know that upon hearing this would rejoice?

Being a meaningful player means playing a meaningful game, so no to your second question.


I should preface this by saying that meaning can exist at different levels. I am not saying we cannot have meaningful relationships etc. In fact, I think economically and morally humanity has never been better off, but from the cosmic or spiritual level we have never been so poorly prepared.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23989597 - 01/07/17 01:40 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
human beings are selectively rational. they are not entirely rational, even our rationality is only part-rational, the rest that leads us is emotional & physical.

PS: yeah, there's a definite turn to individualism happening but people seem to refuse to admit to the fact that they are always going to be a part of a collective, which has it's fair-share of problems to tackle, all of which require more than the attempt at separation, to actually address.




This is why a lot of the new age stuff with its emphasis on the environment is misguided. They are just as much apart of the economic-industrial order as anyone else. Their care for the environment is often repackaged and sold back to them at a profit.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesudly
Quasar Praiser


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 11,069
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #23989814 - 01/07/17 03:17 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

You're worried about the earth burning up in 4 billion years? The point isn't to rejoice the earths demise but to rejoice the life you'll have before that happens.

Meanings aren't inherent so I don't agree there are multiple levels of it.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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