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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Does a predatory elite exploit our natural storytelling genius to control us? [Re: laughingdog]
    #24009950 - 01/14/17 02:45 PM (7 years, 16 days ago)

In other words, the common people whom zz claims are being nefariously manipulated, are complicitous to a large extent. Imho, if guilt were to be assigned, then everyone would be guilty, not just those at the top.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Does a predatory elite exploit our natural storytelling genius to control us? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #24010005 - 01/14/17 03:03 PM (7 years, 16 days ago)

what I had in mind was something like this:
1) oversimplification
2) a very tidy view of the world
3) 'black and white' 'thinking'
4) viewing one self as good & 'the other' as bad
5) getting a sense of security from such a world view,
which is partly based on ignoring one's own feelings of insecurity / uncertainty


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Re: Does a predatory elite exploit our natural storytelling genius to control us? [Re: laughingdog]
    #24010032 - 01/14/17 03:12 PM (7 years, 16 days ago)

Sure. There are both religious and secular versions of that. Politically it takes the form of mob rule and gets clowns elected to important offices.


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Does a predatory elite exploit our natural storytelling genius to control us? [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #24010044 - 01/14/17 03:15 PM (7 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
The funny part of this idea of 'a predatory elite'
is that although, it presents itself, as a modern and profound idea known only to the congnizanti or smart insiders,
it actually functions psychologically in the minds of those who believe it,
exactly the way the Christian idea of the Devil has for hundreds or thousands of years,
in the minds of those who believed in that notion.




...lol. oh yeah, I know, this sht touches a nerve. of course it does!

I will not leave it there though and address your logic best way I can:

Don't get caught up in the term 'predatory elite'. That is just A term I cam up with. There are other words, like oligarchy, occultocracy, or groups who are diverse but share the same symbolism and numerology and agenda


You are trying to have me as one of the 'congnizanti or smart insiders'. But I could easily term your ilk that, if you mean this in a put-down way, as in your so smart you can see we are NOT smart-but-think-we-are, but you know better. BECAUSE you unlike others have been presented with what your 'insiders' are presenting as evidence but you do not accept it.

You think the evidence is not actually real but a 'belief'.

You compare this belief with the belief in the 'Devil' by Christian believers.

This incredibly after I have been trying to explain the whole Devil story, and how it came to be used as the boogie man by an authoritarian power structure like 'the terrorist' and/or the 'war on terror' is being used now by the same mindset of story-tellers/toxic myth makers.

But you rather judge us--people exploring this toxic story-making by officialdom with its context, pretext and subtext to be making a devil out of a 'predatory elite'. That is your argument right?

:crazy2:


Edited by zzripz (01/14/17 03:18 PM)


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Does a predatory elite exploit our natural storytelling genius to control us? [Re: zzripz] * 1
    #24010111 - 01/14/17 03:43 PM (7 years, 16 days ago)

as Werner Erhart said
"even the truth believed is a lie"
Buddhism, also 2500 years previously,
said something similar

I would say simply the degree to which one is attached to proving a view point is the degree to which one is out of touch with present reality.

of course after saying such a thing I would be a fool if I tried to prove it

this is why both scientific method and Buddhism say: test it for yourself

in NLP it is said the meaning of a communication is it's effect on the other person,
not what one thinks the meaning is - again a little subtler than attempting to find "the source of evil in the world".

I suppose I too could be criticized for believing I was an insider and smarter if I consistently, with much emotional investment, proposed odd belief systems, that claimed to explain all of human reality, -- but on the contrary my effort like Erhart's, Buddha's, & Socrates and company is to hint at the dangers of believing one has all the answers. It is not a new or special idea. And questioning what payoffs behaviors provide those who engage in them is not new or special either. And neither is going a step further and questioning ourselves in the same way. Positing 'the major evil' in an exterior source is off course obviously  guaranteed to direct our attention elsewhere. (Meaning away from the payoffs belief systems maybe providing us with, and away from even the notion that we maybe sabotaging ourselves, by ignoring aspects of our own psyche.)


Edited by laughingdog (01/15/17 12:16 AM)


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Does a predatory elite exploit our natural storytelling genius to control us? [Re: zzripz]
    #24010229 - 01/14/17 04:27 PM (7 years, 16 days ago)

Allow me to share an excerpt from the book Ancient Rome: The Rise and Fall of an Empire by Simon Baker:

Quote:

Hadrian's prosperous, peaceful empire was, above all, one of extremes of inequality. For example, slaves significantly outnumbered citizens, and this simple fact made the latter nervous. If slaves could organize, they could become a powerful collective force. Another fault line was property. The massive polity primarily served and protected the interests of landowners rather than the peasants who worked the land. While the rich few exploited the well-worn trade routes of the Mediterranean and wowed their friends at dinner parties with a menu of peacock from Arabia, the majority of the poor lived meagrely on what could be produced locally. The rights of citizens too set apart the haves from the have-nots; those without Roman citizenship could earn it, but for most that meant a lifetime of military service in the Roman army.





Does it sound like the Romans had to engage in any control methods to keep the poor poor? Did they manipulate the media (of which there were none at the time); did they promulgate propaganda? Did they really have to do anything? No, they were in power. They controlled the empire. They did not need to actively oppress people. Everything fell into, and stayed in, place, sociologically. There was no control via any narrative.


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Does a predatory elite exploit our natural storytelling genius to control us? [Re: laughingdog]
    #24011269 - 01/15/17 04:07 AM (7 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
what I had in mind was something like this:
1) oversimplification
2) a very tidy view of the world
3) 'black and white' 'thinking'
4) viewing one self as good & 'the other' as bad
5) getting a sense of security from such a world view,
which is partly based on ignoring one's own feelings of insecurity / uncertainty




OK let me try address your points here:

Quote:

1) oversimplification




you think what I present is oversimplication...?:eek: I rather think it is revealing quite a lot of deep sht. What I would call oversimplication is eg the literal reading of things, like the Bible, the Koran, Buddhism, this secular culture. Whereas once we start becoming aware of levels is when the complexity begins.
Quote:


2)  a very tidy view of the world




critique 1) applies to this also. Rather, a 'tidy' view must refer to literalism, and its black and white thinking. IE the typical homophobic assertion such as 'a man is a man, and a woman is a woman!'

Quote:

3)'black and white' 'thinking'




Well this is what I mean by the above. over and over in these boards I encourage inquiry into dualistic thinking and how it causes most of the toxic sht in this world. I am rather saying that the 'predatory elite' I am looking into are ALSO trapped in 'black and white' 'thinking', because this type of thinking has a long history. it stems from solar phallic mythical thinking.
Why 'solar'?

Whereas in lunar mythology both dark and light circulate within the luminary ~ with the sun, it is just light which predominates and thus sets off in its worshiper stark contrast with 'darkness' and thus can create a psychological conceptual dualism that light and dark are not one dynamic process, and in typical solar dualistic presumption they divide 'light' from 'dark' and believe the former is superior to the latter and create myths such as the "sons of light" versus the "sons of darkness". Which is a myth/story discovered in the Dead Sea Scrolls

Quote:

4) viewing one self as good & 'the other' as bad




Let me ask you: when was the last time you declared a war on others, including many innocent people, men women and children, and babies, and a large reason for this war was to vastly increase your profits? And this war not only did that, but also polluted the whole region of 'battle' with contamination from your weapons that contain  depleted uranium which carries on killing and spreading toxicity for many many hundreds and hundreds of years causing all kinds of cancers and horrific genetic damage. Is that not bad? Do I have to think of myself as a goody two shoes to know that is very evil? Just askin'
Quote:


5) getting a sense of security from such a world view,
which is partly based on ignoring one's own feelings of insecurity / uncertainty




Why should people looking into this freaky stuff find a sense of security from it? I am trying to understand your assumption here. It is more a rabbit hole when you look into this and can feel extremely disturbing once you find the beliefs the people in power believe in!
For example that they believe radiation from their nuclear bombs etc is good because it brings light into 'dark' matter.
That their mythology views the natural world as inferior to their Luciferian technomatrix, and thus want to impose the latter globally. How can I feel secure knowing these insane fiends are the mis-leaders brining about genocide and ecocide and mass extinctions of other species?
I obviously am not ignoring this insecurity because I at least am prepared to look deep into this top the best of my ability so as to bring this to the awareness of myself and of others who are willing to look for themselves.
But this is not from 'someone who knows' kind of thing. I am learning as I go along, and encourage that understanding~~ongoing learning process. This is not about becoming enlightened and a god. That is what they believe.


Edited by zzripz (01/15/17 04:26 AM)


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Does a predatory elite exploit our natural storytelling genius to control us? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #24011283 - 01/15/17 04:37 AM (7 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Allow me to share an excerpt from the book Ancient Rome: The Rise and Fall of an Empire by Simon Baker:

Quote:

Hadrian's prosperous, peaceful empire was, above all, one of extremes of inequality. For example, slaves significantly outnumbered citizens, and this simple fact made the latter nervous. If slaves could organize, they could become a powerful collective force. Another fault line was property. The massive polity primarily served and protected the interests of landowners rather than the peasants who worked the land. While the rich few exploited the well-worn trade routes of the Mediterranean and wowed their friends at dinner parties with a menu of peacock from Arabia, the majority of the poor lived meagrely on what could be produced locally. The rights of citizens too set apart the haves from the have-nots; those without Roman citizenship could earn it, but for most that meant a lifetime of military service in the Roman army.





Does it sound like the Romans had to engage in any control methods to keep the poor poor? Did they manipulate the media (of which there were none at the time); did they promulgate propaganda? Did they really have to do anything? No, they were in power. They controlled the empire. They did not need to actively oppress people. Everything fell into, and stayed in, place, sociologically. There was no control via any narrative.




Heard of
Quote:

Bread and Circuses?

"Bread and circuses" (or bread and games; from Latin: panem et circenses) is metonymic for a superficial means of appeasement. In the case of politics, the phrase is used to describe the generation of public approval, not through exemplary or excellent public service or public policy, but through diversion; distraction; or the mere satisfaction of the immediate, shallow requirements of a populace,[1] as an offered "palliative". Its originator, Juvenal, used the phrase to decry the selfishness of common people and their neglect of wider concerns.[2][3][4] The phrase also implies the erosion or ignorance of civic duty amongst the concerns of the commoner.




So what has changed from which you describe but that 'bread and circuses' are now TV, Cinema, and FAR more sophisticated means of bodymind manipulation via diversions, distractions, predictive programming etc?


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Does a predatory elite exploit our natural storytelling genius to control us? [Re: zzripz]
    #24011549 - 01/15/17 09:02 AM (7 years, 15 days ago)

How is keeping people entertained so that they are occupied and do not cause mischief "manipulation"? It's expediency.


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Does a predatory elite exploit our natural storytelling genius to control us? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #24011584 - 01/15/17 09:16 AM (7 years, 15 days ago)

it explains why in the little quote above.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Does a predatory elite exploit our natural storytelling genius to control us? [Re: zzripz]
    #24011592 - 01/15/17 09:22 AM (7 years, 15 days ago)

Yeah, I read it, it just seems like expediency to me. What society in the history of the world didn't have public events, anyway? Some of the emperors, like Augustus, personally paid for lavish, multi-day festivals so that they could preserve public approval. That seems like standard politics to me, nothing fishy or sinister. You're reading too much into it.


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Does a predatory elite exploit our natural storytelling genius to control us? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #24011702 - 01/15/17 10:02 AM (7 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Yeah, I read it, it just seems like expediency to me. What society in the history of the world didn't have public events, anyway? Some of the emperors, like Augustus, personally paid for lavish, multi-day festivals so that they could preserve public approval. That seems like standard politics to me, nothing fishy or sinister. You're reading too much into it.




Quote:

it just seems like expediency to me.




expedient:

Quote:

expedient (adj.) Look up expedient at Dictionary.com
    late 14c., "advantageous, fit, proper to a purpose," from Old French expedient "useful, beneficial" (14c.) or directly from Latin expedientem (nominative expediens) "beneficial," present participle of expedire "make fit or ready, prepare" (see expedite). The noun meaning "a device adopted in an exigency, that which serves to advance a desired result" is from 1650s. Related: Expediential; expedientially (both 19c.).

        Expedient, contrivance, and device indicate artificial means of escape from difficulty or embarrassment; resource indicates natural means or something possessed; resort and shift may indicate either. [Century Dictionary]





Yes, it is very useful, beneficial, and advantageous to the ruling class who want perpetual war, and dumbness of 'the masses'. To bring about a 'desired result' they want, and plan for, and need the blind to carry it through without much questioning.
And to escape from embarrassment or difficulty when their schemes, and activities, become unveiled, exposed.

Yes this tactic has been used for a long long time, and has gotten even more sophisticated now. So much so many people are so distracted by their iphones they are getting run over on the road, etc.



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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Does a predatory elite exploit our natural storytelling genius to control us? [Re: zzripz]
    #24011720 - 01/15/17 10:07 AM (7 years, 15 days ago)

In spirit, I don't disagree with a lot of the things you're saying. I hate cell phones too. But I am simply of the opinion that there is not as much intentional control from the top. I think things fall into place, and are self-reinforcing. Common interests indeed are served by the status quo's remaining as much in place as possible, but the mass of common people are just as questionable when they go for these superficial toys and don't question anything. I don't see the "top" as fundamentally more culpable for our problems than the rest.


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Re: Does a predatory elite exploit our natural storytelling genius to control us? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #24011808 - 01/15/17 10:32 AM (7 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
In spirit, I don't disagree with a lot of the things you're saying. I hate cell phones too. But I am simply of the opinion that there is not as much intentional control from the top. I think things fall into place, and are self-reinforcing. Common interests indeed are served by the status quo's remaining as much in place as possible, but the mass of common people are just as questionable when they go for these superficial toys and don't question anything. I don't see the "top" as fundamentally more culpable for our problems than the rest.





I think then you missing a very important link: the advertising industry and its central connection with the corporacracy and thus what I am calling a predatory elite. it is all part and parcel. because what the 'masses' can be manipulated to buy and do  and NOT do (like wake up) greatly increases the wealth of the few.

That was revealed by the early so-called Master of Spin/propaganda. I will quote him from his book Propaganda again:

Quote:

“The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ...We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of. This is a logical result of the way in which our democratic society is organized. Vast numbers of human beings must cooperate in this manner if they are to live together as a smoothly functioning society. ...In almost every act of our daily lives, whether in the sphere of politics or business, in our social conduct or our ethical thinking, we are dominated by the relatively small number of persons...who understand the mental processes and social patterns of the masses. It is they who pull the wires which control the public mind.”




I don't think it can be clearer revealed than that. Not that he wrote this for the benefit of 'the masses'. IF you are of the kind of person who have no problem with unknown individuals 'understanding your mental processes' and manipulating you because you trust their authority, maybe a person will not be chilled by that confession, but to really understand the state of things in the world, I really encourage the being chilled bit, and the becoming aware necessity.

EXAMPLE: A child is fat, and eats and drinks fast food crap. S/He is put in front of TV and is bombarded with countless ads pushing her/him that crap. Are they to blame to desire it? Or is it our responsibility to get wise the tricks being pulled on them, and on ourselves? I know where I stand on this.


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Re: Does a predatory elite exploit our natural storytelling genius to control us? [Re: zzripz]
    #24011829 - 01/15/17 10:39 AM (7 years, 15 days ago)

Yeah, advertising is pretty unprincipled. Has been for a long time. Their primary goal is to make money, and they'll use whatever techniques they can to do it. I don't think most people are robotically programmed by it, though. It's not so black and white. If a person can't make his own decisions, I don't think you or anyone else can ever help him.


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Re: Does a predatory elite exploit our natural storytelling genius to control us? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #24011930 - 01/15/17 11:18 AM (7 years, 15 days ago)

I don't see it like that. We agree very much when you see that:

Quote:

Yeah, advertising is pretty unprincipled. Has been for a long time. Their primary goal is to make money, and they'll use whatever techniques they can to do it.




but not:
Quote:

I don't think most people are robotically programmed by it, though. It's not so black and white. If a person can't make his own decisions, I don't think you or anyone else can ever help him.




I think that there is vast sums spent on animal 'experimentation' to understand better ways to control people, and humans (remember Nazi experiments?) etc where we are looked at as glorified lab rats. And not only DO they robotically program people via their advertising, political propaganda, and occultism, but an endgame of theres is complete control via the implementation of technology into the human body, eg 'transhumanism' ('H+' for short).
As I said we are already close to this with their getting more and more people mesmerized by the virtual reality of video games and their iphones. Have you seen those recent adverts where people are trying on those '3D' headsets similar to what Neo wore in The matrix?



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Re: Does a predatory elite exploit our natural storytelling genius to control us? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #24011962 - 01/15/17 11:28 AM (7 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
In other words, the common people whom zz claims are being nefariously manipulated, are complicitous to a large extent. Imho, if guilt were to be assigned, then everyone would be guilty, not just those at the top.




And sorry I missed this:

We are complicitous IF we do make effort to look and see what is going on.

From what I understand the ones in-the-know have complete contempt for the ones they see as completely blind to what they are doing, and will mock them. I have more to say on this so please watch for more added later. I am having to leave for now

# OK continuing, they mock us, and treat us like playthings, is what I understand, in extremely sadistic ways, both their victims and the victims loved ones.

I have not seen the film The Cabin in the Woods yet, but want to. I think it is about people being made to be playthings.

I like the saying ' a great storyteller has to walk in everyone's shoes'. This doesn't mean you condone evil, but does mean the playing into the role of say a serial killer, and/or people who see evil as not evil as we understand it but as something to be embraced to be 'free of it'.

I mean just say that was a possibility, people who would believe that, then you have to imagine being like that to understand it. Doing so gives you an insight into that worldview.


Edited by zzripz (01/15/17 02:37 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Does a predatory elite exploit our natural storytelling genius to control us? [Re: zzripz]
    #24012018 - 01/15/17 11:47 AM (7 years, 15 days ago)

Putin's  Russians exploited storytelling and fake news to help Trump.

Besides that one which was an intensive operation with tangible results, I don't see any particular elite doing what you say.

Naturally we have Coca Cola and Santa Claus, and that whole world of advertising and google ad sense to boot.


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Re: Does a predatory elite exploit our natural storytelling genius to control us? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24012350 - 01/15/17 02:41 PM (7 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Putin's  Russians exploited storytelling and fake news to help Trump.




where is the evidence for this?
Quote:


Besides that one which was an intensive operation with tangible results, I don't see any particular elite doing what you say.




Like I say, I have not seen any evidence to support this?

Quote:

Naturally we have Coca Cola and Santa Claus, and that whole world of advertising and google ad sense to boot.




Coca Cola sucks, but I do not see the harm in the story of Santa Claus. I believed all that as a kid and it gave me a real sense of the magic of reality. it is also quite blatantly revealing psychedelic mushroom roots.


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Re: Does a predatory elite exploit our natural storytelling genius to control us? [Re: zzripz]
    #24012395 - 01/15/17 03:06 PM (7 years, 15 days ago)



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