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viktor
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An essay I wrote on the subject of planetary overpopulation 1
#23982984 - 01/05/17 02:26 AM (7 years, 26 days ago) |
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Having Three Children or More is Tantamount to Being a Murderer
Whether you realise it or not, these are exciting times for Planet Earth. We are currently in the middle of what is known as the Sixth Extinction (in the history of Earth), or the Holocene Extinction, after the geological era. This has been caused by humans, and is reshaping the biosphere of the entire planet.
The Sixth Extinction began with human migration outside of Africa. The existing megafauna of other continents – like the Woolly Mammoth and the Moa – occupied niches that were highly sensitive to the introduction of a new apex predator, and almost all of them were wiped out by human expansion.
Today, the Sixth Extinction has wiped out significant numbers of species on every land mass and ocean. The current rate of species loss is believed to be 1,000 to 10,000 times higher than what it would have been without human presence.
And it’s not just because we’re particularly wasteful or greedy.
One inescapable fact of nature and reproduction is that, for your offspring to occupy a niche within nature, they have to drive out any possible competitors in that niche, and then to defend it against all comers. So for your offspring to so much as exist and continue to exist, they have to kill other life, because nature is permanently in a state of flux and this means conflict.
Your offspring have to eat. There’s no way around that. The cattle sector of agriculture has been responsible for 80% of the rainforest destruction since 1970. And one estimate of the world’s fish stocks suggest that the number of fish in the oceans are now 10% of their pre-industrial value.
Even if you raise them to be vegans (which is itself morally questionable), the food still has to be grown somewhere and your offspring have to live somewhere, and much of the remainder of Amazon rainforest destruction is for soybean production, housing space, or for hardwoods.
This rate of destruction is not inevitable. In fact, it is a function of another variable: our rate of population increase.
Given the increase in the human population in recent centuries (as depicted in the graph above), it is simply unavoidable that we would do the amount of ecological damage that we have done. Because people have to consume the environment around them in order to continue to live, an increasing population will always alter its environment – and therefore contribute to species extinction – in so far as it needs to eat.
The central contention of this essay is this: anyone who has more than two children does an amount of environmental damage to nature which, in terms of degree of tragedy, is equal to committing murder.
After all, there is one thing we do know for certain about our increasing population, and that is the higher it increases, the higher the demand for the limited resources of the planet become, and therefore the closer we move towards war.
If a couple has two children to replace themselves they are not increasing the amount of pressure on the environment. Only by having three or more does a couple ensure that their offspring have to expand into other niches instead of (relatively) simply just inheriting those of their parents. This expansion means aggression against the previous inhabitants of those niches – and this is unavoidable.
Perhaps, if humans were serious about avoiding the environmental collapse that would kill us all, we would pass a law so that any man who could be proven to have three or more children is to be executed. If three children was considered too restrictive, we could start with a boundary of four or even five.
Original here.
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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Morel Guy
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Re: An essay I wrote on the subject of planetary overpopulation [Re: viktor]
#23983035 - 01/05/17 03:26 AM (7 years, 25 days ago) |
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I don't have kids. Some people and they tend to be very religious, have very many. Probably some non religious large broken families as well.
Water and the health of algae are very important. Algae produces most of the worlds O2. They also say that wars will be fought over water. Luckily I live in Ohio, and there is plenty of water. But wells are running dry. We just drilled 2 more water wells at the farm. The driller said lot's of wells are running dry. They didn't drill older wells deep enough. Even the pond is several feet lower than past years.
Animals are big wasters of food. Meat is a luxury.
It's likely that there will be a huge die off of humans. War's are going to happen. War's also are more likely to scar the earth more, with today's weapons. Lot's of countries boost birth rates before and after wars.
-------------------- "in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur" In filth it will be found in dung it will be found
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viktor
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Re: An essay I wrote on the subject of planetary overpopulation [Re: Morel Guy]
#23983104 - 01/05/17 04:35 AM (7 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
Morel Guy said: It's likely that there will be a huge die off of humans.
I think the real question is whether we ought to do anything about this or just coast along and hope we can adapt at a sufficient rate.
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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Morel Guy
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Re: An essay I wrote on the subject of planetary overpopulation [Re: viktor]
#23983106 - 01/05/17 04:37 AM (7 years, 25 days ago) |
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The UN could do more but they don't seem to want to.
-------------------- "in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur" In filth it will be found in dung it will be found
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sudly
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Re: An essay I wrote on the subject of planetary overpopulation [Re: viktor]
#23983171 - 01/05/17 06:15 AM (7 years, 25 days ago) |
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-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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redgreenvines
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Re: An essay I wrote on the subject of planetary overpopulation [Re: sudly] 1
#23983203 - 01/05/17 06:54 AM (7 years, 25 days ago) |
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We are at the point that only industrial agriculture and multinational corporations can support our growing populations except for pockets of self reliance and organic farming and some off grid attempts at modern life.
This pattern is too complex for people to comprehend, especially since patents, trade secrets, and proprietary industrial processes are core to the social industrial machine functioning smoothly.
Reduce population pressure, and the off-grid organic movement remains healthy, but the multinational mega farm fast food reality has to shrink. In the mean time, the MacDonald's AMAZON HOLLYWOOD fabric of society has become an essential unquestioned reality - "resistance is futile".
The more population, the more unquestioned this fabric becomes, and the more dependent we become upon it.
That dependency and the inhumanity of refugee management makes me want to shrink population growth.
Also the robotics trend seems to indicate that there will be fewer jobs for the more people that eat crappy crap.
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Psychonott
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Re: An essay I wrote on the subject of planetary overpopulation [Re: redgreenvines]
#23983608 - 01/05/17 11:01 AM (7 years, 25 days ago) |
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The earth is far more resilient than climate exaggerators try to fool people. The planet could handle billions more but could human logistics keep up is the question.
-------------------- Enlils true purpose is to get us off topic and to cast enough logical doubts so that outsiders viewing this would be more likely to side with his fake opinions rather than our or sometimes controlled opppsotions opinions. You see if you are too skilled at not falling for their traps and stating logically sound debunks then other accounts who purposefully agree with 90% of the truth join in and get the entire topic off the main points. It's their 1960s version of damage control and diversion but man it's painfully obvious in 2017
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redgreenvines
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Re: An essay I wrote on the subject of planetary overpopulation [Re: Psychonott]
#23983691 - 01/05/17 11:37 AM (7 years, 25 days ago) |
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why should it accommodate the maximum conceivable number? how did it turn into a platform for global warming denial.
where is the sanity in your comment Mr. Psychonott?
or are you just being naughty
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


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Re: An essay I wrote on the subject of planetary overpopulation [Re: Psychonott]
#23984398 - 01/05/17 04:25 PM (7 years, 25 days ago) |
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I don't know why people think the atmosphere has infinite storage..
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


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Re: An essay I wrote on the subject of planetary overpopulation [Re: sudly]
#23984458 - 01/05/17 04:41 PM (7 years, 25 days ago) |
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they are just drones echoing comments from politically invested good for nothing profiteers.
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Morel Guy
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Re: An essay I wrote on the subject of planetary overpopulation [Re: redgreenvines]
#23984549 - 01/05/17 05:08 PM (7 years, 25 days ago) |
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Everyone ever went into space marvels at the thin blue band, aka atmosphere.
-------------------- "in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur" In filth it will be found in dung it will be found
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jakefake



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Re: An essay I wrote on the subject of planetary overpopulation [Re: viktor]
#23984604 - 01/05/17 05:23 PM (7 years, 25 days ago) |
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Viktor - I think you're worrying too much. Other humans, and especially lots of them, help to create and sustain the affluence you take for granted. Enjoy
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DividedQuantum
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Re: An essay I wrote on the subject of planetary overpopulation [Re: viktor] 1
#23984679 - 01/05/17 05:50 PM (7 years, 25 days ago) |
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The global population was too large at a billion. Now we're at almost eight, and on the way to about ten billion by 2050. It's a dramatically unhealthy number of humans, and one can see that we're wiping out and displacing the animal kingdom rapidly. As viktor correctly noted, we are in the midst of a great extinction, and humans are the cause.
We have more than three billion people (almost half the world's population) below the poverty line, and the 250 richest people on Earth have more money and control more resources than the 3 billion+ poorest. One can argue that it's a matter of availability of resources, and that we can support this many people at a reasonable standard of living. My question is: when?! How much longer will it take to get over three billion people to a reasonable standard of living? And we can't expect this standard of living to be as high for everyone as it is in the West. Statistically, if everyone on Earth were to live at an American standard of living, 4.1 Earths would be required at maximum efficiency to support that level of consumption. So -- when exactly are the resources going to be available?
Very many of our problems stem from the burgeoning population. Virtually all of our environmental problems do. It's not deleterious for some people to live the way Westerners do. It is totally deleterious for everyone to live that way. So, do we work to reduce the population, or do we settle for an extremely sparse standard of living for ten billion people, and say fuck the environment?
I'm also in agreement with viktor on limiting number of offspring, but I would say one child rather than two would be optimal, and that there should be some incentive for people not to have children at all. We need to get serious.
Way too many humans.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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viktor
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Re: An essay I wrote on the subject of planetary overpopulation [Re: DividedQuantum]
#23984889 - 01/05/17 07:10 PM (7 years, 25 days ago) |
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Yeah I actually thought of you when I wrote this DQ, especially as I calculated how many humans the Earth could support if we went back to hunting and gathering, which I estimate to be about 50,000,000.
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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DividedQuantum
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Re: An essay I wrote on the subject of planetary overpopulation [Re: viktor]
#23984922 - 01/05/17 07:20 PM (7 years, 25 days ago) |
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Yeah, that sounds about right. Clearly, barring some major catastrophe, that type of economy is long gone. It's a question whether there would be enough in most places to hunt or gather adequately, though. I guess some animal populations would rebound. Purely hypothetical, of course.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

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Re: An essay I wrote on the subject of planetary overpopulation [Re: Psychonott]
#23985079 - 01/05/17 08:26 PM (7 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
Psychonott said: The earth is far more resilient than climate exaggerators try to fool people. The planet could handle billions more but could human logistics keep up is the question.
Africa alone could feed the entire planet if it was managed properly. The overpopulation question is a bit misleading because it doesn't take into account standards of living. At a lower standard of living we could easily support 10 billion people.
Also, education of women has been shown to reduce family size and so reduce population. So viktor, if your really worried about overpopulation you should be promoting womens education.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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viktor
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Re: An essay I wrote on the subject of planetary overpopulation [Re: blingbling]
#23985252 - 01/05/17 09:32 PM (7 years, 25 days ago) |
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I think any woman from an Islamic country ought to be offered asylum in the West, so that's my offer.
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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jakefake



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Re: An essay I wrote on the subject of planetary overpopulation [Re: DividedQuantum]
#23985390 - 01/05/17 10:32 PM (7 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: The global population was too large at a billion...
I'm also in agreement with viktor on limiting number of offspring...
Rubbish! This is simply the voice of someone who doesn't like other people, and who especially doesn't like children.
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jakefake



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Re: An essay I wrote on the subject of planetary overpopulation [Re: DividedQuantum]
#23985410 - 01/05/17 10:43 PM (7 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said:
We have more than three billion people (almost half the world's population) below the poverty line, and the 250 richest people on Earth have more money and control more resources than the 3 billion+ poorest.
True, but this has got absolutely nothing to do with the question of how many people there are. When France faced up to the issue of social inequality 200 years ago, their solution was was to execute the top 2 percent of the population. I don't recommend their solution, but it's much more effective than yours, which is to try to limit breeding.
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Eywa_devotee
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Re: An essay I wrote on the subject of planetary overpopulation [Re: jakefake]
#23985561 - 01/06/17 12:06 AM (7 years, 25 days ago) |
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The core of the problem isn't children, it's fear based existence based on ignorance, delusion, deception, greed, and pride. At this point it is extremely obvious that this mode of thought will not change. If this continues, the sterilization of the Earth's biosphere due to the reckless abuse of technology and waste of resources is all but inevitable. The only solution at this point is a plague one as nasty as the one in the stand, or a "Skyline" style alien harvest of the human race. It is what it is.
-------------------- "Love one another." "To Love is to know me." "Love is the Law, Love under Will." "In Compassion, all sorrows end." Regardless of the Master, the message is the same- Choose love and you shall live, Choose Fear and you shall die. Help bring peace to this Earth: Love one another, and serve others before yourself.
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viktor
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Re: An essay I wrote on the subject of planetary overpopulation [Re: jakefake]
#23985695 - 01/06/17 02:19 AM (7 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
jakefake said:
Quote:
DividedQuantum said:
We have more than three billion people (almost half the world's population) below the poverty line, and the 250 richest people on Earth have more money and control more resources than the 3 billion+ poorest.
True, but this has got absolutely nothing to do with the question of how many people there are. When France faced up to the issue of social inequality 200 years ago, their solution was was to execute the top 2 percent of the population. I don't recommend their solution, but it's much more effective than yours, which is to try to limit breeding.
Over time you could get people used to the concept of executing men who inseminate too many women.
Start at six or seven, drop it down every few years.
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

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Re: An essay I wrote on the subject of planetary overpopulation [Re: Eywa_devotee]
#23985708 - 01/06/17 02:33 AM (7 years, 25 days ago) |
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Man, what you post compared to what's in your signature is very jarring.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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DividedQuantum
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Re: An essay I wrote on the subject of planetary overpopulation [Re: jakefake]
#23985932 - 01/06/17 08:03 AM (7 years, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
jakefake said:
Quote:
DividedQuantum said:
We have more than three billion people (almost half the world's population) below the poverty line, and the 250 richest people on Earth have more money and control more resources than the 3 billion+ poorest.
True, but this has got absolutely nothing to do with the question of how many people there are. When France faced up to the issue of social inequality 200 years ago, their solution was was to execute the top 2 percent of the population. I don't recommend their solution, but it's much more effective than yours, which is to try to limit breeding.
My point is that we can't take care of the ones who are here, so how smart would it be to add over two billion more? I don't see what the French Revolution has to do with anything at all concerning my point. I have talked about limiting breeding in a very general way; I don't think it is politically feasible now, although it may be in the future. I don't think it's a practical solution in today's world -- nobody would go for it. Most people feel it is just fine to get to ten billion or more. You're right -- it's ineffective. But if we're going to be here for the long-term (a big if), I think eventually a decrease in population will be sought.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Psychonott
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Re: An essay I wrote on the subject of planetary overpopulation [Re: redgreenvines]
#23986111 - 01/06/17 09:43 AM (7 years, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: why should it accommodate the maximum conceivable number? how did it turn into a platform for global warming denial.
where is the sanity in your comment Mr. Psychonott?
or are you just being naughty
No I'm being quite honest we have billions of starving people yet enough food stockpiles to feed billions the issue isn't resources it's distribution and logistics
There is no such thing as a consensus of science and when someone claims there is they are likely being disingenuous.
This is exactly what was yelled from the top of people's lungs for years that there "was a consensus of scientists" that climate change is real
What's becoming clear with hindsight is that there is no such thing as a consensus of science and now many more feel powered to speak doubts upon climate change theories.
So clearly the earth can handle much more population but can the rich hoarders break their disease to spread the loving around enough is the major issue here
-------------------- Enlils true purpose is to get us off topic and to cast enough logical doubts so that outsiders viewing this would be more likely to side with his fake opinions rather than our or sometimes controlled opppsotions opinions. You see if you are too skilled at not falling for their traps and stating logically sound debunks then other accounts who purposefully agree with 90% of the truth join in and get the entire topic off the main points. It's their 1960s version of damage control and diversion but man it's painfully obvious in 2017
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DividedQuantum
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Re: An essay I wrote on the subject of planetary overpopulation [Re: Psychonott] 1
#23986128 - 01/06/17 09:54 AM (7 years, 24 days ago) |
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But to RGV's point: just because the Earth can handle more, does that mean we should be okay with ten or twelve billion people? Do you have any idea what the environmental impact would be? I stated previously that we had too many people at a billion, and I think it's true. Ecologically, we are way out of proportion. But if you think an even greater rape of the environment, and a pitiful standard of living are okay, fine. In my opinion, it's too crowded anyway, and our cities are becoming more and more overstuffed and toxic.
It's a silly premise that just because we can handle more it would be fine to have more. Do you have any ideas about how we can get all this food to 3.5 billion people? Would that really solve the problem, or are there political and socioeconomic factors as well?
I would also say that, one has to remember, in developing nations what is the first thing people do when they acquire increased food resources? Have more children (sometimes ten or twelve per family) and outstrip the resources again. I'm no Malthusian, and I think everyone should be provided for, but it's a real phenomenon. Fixing the problem is a lot more complex that just giving people food.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Psychonott
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Re: An essay I wrote on the subject of planetary overpopulation [Re: DividedQuantum]
#23986197 - 01/06/17 10:26 AM (7 years, 24 days ago) |
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What's silly is pretending the reason we can't handle more is the earth.
Sure we can't have 30 billion hunting and gatherers
But the argument that the planet can't handle the population is a myth
The argument our societal structures and logistical movements couldn't keep up with such pace for decent standards of living is a legitimate argument
However the largest driving force for these disparities is hoarding of Wealth, resources, and decision making from the will of the people and in the hands of a few psychologically ill hoarders
-------------------- Enlils true purpose is to get us off topic and to cast enough logical doubts so that outsiders viewing this would be more likely to side with his fake opinions rather than our or sometimes controlled opppsotions opinions. You see if you are too skilled at not falling for their traps and stating logically sound debunks then other accounts who purposefully agree with 90% of the truth join in and get the entire topic off the main points. It's their 1960s version of damage control and diversion but man it's painfully obvious in 2017
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redgreenvines
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Re: An essay I wrote on the subject of planetary overpopulation [Re: Psychonott] 1
#23986210 - 01/06/17 10:34 AM (7 years, 24 days ago) |
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since the logistics is not being handled, we can begin to assume that it is one of the weak links in the chain supporting large populations.
there are many weak links which each of which spells out disaster differently.
I think that rolling back population and improving capacity to recover from loss of links (in the supporting chain) is best.
Nobody should make plans that ignore survival of natural disasters or dependency on single links.
Single point of failure type issues are rampant in this run-away population issue.
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DividedQuantum
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Re: An essay I wrote on the subject of planetary overpopulation [Re: Psychonott] 1
#23986212 - 01/06/17 10:34 AM (7 years, 24 days ago) |
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The Earth can handle more at an extremely modest standard of living for everyone. That is true. And we probably could get around to providing for everyone, if it were made a priority. The thing is, no one with much power is spearheading such an effort. So while people say we can support everyone, I ask them: when? Ten years? Thirty? It's all well and good to theorize that the Earth can support everybody, but how likely is it really that this is going to happen?
And I don't think it's just the "hoarders" who are the problem. Not at all, that's bogus. It's you and me. It's everyone. If there were a movement to feed and clothe everyone, it would happen. Nobody cares, at least in America.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Psychonott
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Re: An essay I wrote on the subject of planetary overpopulation [Re: DividedQuantum]
#23986225 - 01/06/17 10:38 AM (7 years, 24 days ago) |
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Because the people calling the shots currently are mentally ill with many psychological disorders including severe hoarding
It's not you me and everybody because we have been indoctrinated into a system that constantly seeks to distract us and hide away our true influences and powers
When I first had these realizations I attempted to mobilize my brethren but they were too worried about next week checks to pay last weeks bills as the carrot slipped farther away from their faces.
People are over stressed and under nourished to fully realize the simple changes needed in order to enact the changes you and i are aware need accomplished.
The longer this disconnect continues the harder they will fall that is true because a growing number of People are beginning to realize their full and true potentials
If you haven't noticed the middle class has been drastically falling. Suddenly more and more people are working more for less and less purchasing power.
This reinforces the now suppressed norms that the narratives being spoon fed to them by large media are false and increasingly their reality doesn't match the spoon feeding.
This will lead to great actions and responses
-------------------- Enlils true purpose is to get us off topic and to cast enough logical doubts so that outsiders viewing this would be more likely to side with his fake opinions rather than our or sometimes controlled opppsotions opinions. You see if you are too skilled at not falling for their traps and stating logically sound debunks then other accounts who purposefully agree with 90% of the truth join in and get the entire topic off the main points. It's their 1960s version of damage control and diversion but man it's painfully obvious in 2017
Edited by Psychonott (01/06/17 11:08 AM)
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jakefake



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Re: An essay I wrote on the subject of planetary overpopulation [Re: viktor]
#23990680 - 01/07/17 07:52 PM (7 years, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
viktor said:
Quote:
jakefake said:
Quote:
DividedQuantum said:
We have more than three billion people (almost half the world's population) below the poverty line, and the 250 richest people on Earth have more money and control more resources than the 3 billion+ poorest.
True, but this has got absolutely nothing to do with the question of how many people there are. When France faced up to the issue of social inequality 200 years ago, their solution was was to execute the top 2 percent of the population. I don't recommend their solution, but it's much more effective than yours, which is to try to limit breeding.
Over time you could get people used to the concept of executing men who inseminate too many women.
Start at six or seven, drop it down every few years.
Alternatively, you could start lynching people who stayed on the Forbes list of billionaires too long. This would provide an incentive for those people to redistribute their wealth. But a much better approach would be simply to tax the rich and use the money to create the conditions for prosperity. Don't want to hear it from this random internet bloke? Then hear it instead from this random internet multimillionaire entrepreneur:
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Edited by jakefake (01/07/17 08:05 PM)
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