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Senor_Doobie
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Archetypes
#23981555 - 01/04/17 02:08 PM (7 years, 26 days ago) |
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Who is the god of war? He has had names throughout history such as Mars and Aries. But who is he today? What images does he cast on our unconscious mind?
I think I saw him in Westworld, where he was made manifest as the invisible villain, Wyatt. I believe he is represented there by the wolf.
If you haven't seen the show, Wyatt is kind of a hyper-aggressive state, that when activated in us can leave us traumatized...because we're not used to it.
Who is the blue fairy? Is she Alice? Is Alice her? Leading Pinocchio toward consciousness and true individuality? Making us real?
The fairy shows us the jewels of our salvation. Consciousness and conscious living. She is focused vision. Sharp, cutting, honest, and true. She is Athena, the warrior. She is Wendy, the kind and patient.
What archetypes stand out to you? How come?
-------------------- "America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat “Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.” -- Thomas Jefferson The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance. The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)
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beforethedawn
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Interesting ideas.
Is the unconscious really that penetrable?
Certainly there is structure to the psyche and we are generally guided if we stay true to our inner voice.
-------------------- Hostile humankind Can't you see you're fucking blind?
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Senor_Doobie
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Our inner voice, Jiminy Cricket. JC. The voice that bugs you when you are doing wrong. Chirp.
-------------------- "America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat “Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.” -- Thomas Jefferson The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance. The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)
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zzripz
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Quote:
Who is the god of war? He has had names throughout history such as Mars and Aries. But who is he today? What images does he cast on our unconscious mind?
We are seeing the mis-leaders in LOVE with war, they want perpetual war, but getting others to fight them.
Politicians declare war, soldiers fight them.
And innocent humans, including children are mass maimed psychologically and spiritually traumatized, and murdered. Nothing much is said about how the wildlife suffers in man-made wars but they do!
They want perpetual war. War for them is PROFIT. They do not care for life, be it human, other species, or the natural world.
Who is their archetype?
Well in organized religion, 'God, 'Yahweh', proclaims himself the 'God of War'
Quote:
"The Lord is a man of war; Yahweh is his name." – Exodus 15.3.
For the more hidden occultists in power, their god is 'Lucifer', their 'archetype' which represents their rebellion against 'God' and empowering them with self-will, and self-worship, and occult and technological knowledge which will also of course include warfare prowess. having more powerful means than others, 'might is right'.
these beliefs, or archetypes (a Jungian term) if you like, are the myths which fuel their utter insanity!
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Senor_Doobie
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Re: Archetypes [Re: zzripz]
#23984029 - 01/05/17 02:04 PM (7 years, 25 days ago) |
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So, the god of war to you is a manifestation of evil.
Historically, of course there is also a virtuous side. When one tribe attacks another, the only response is war. And to that culture, warriors become heroes. Like in Judaism, Sparta (maybe), etc. They might not fight FOR the god of war, but will make him manifest in themselves as well.
-------------------- "America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat “Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.” -- Thomas Jefferson The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance. The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)
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zzripz
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Quote:
Senor_Doobie said: So, the god of war to you is a manifestation of evil.
Historically, of course there is also a virtuous side. When one tribe attacks another, the only response is war. And to that culture, warriors become heroes. Like in Judaism, Sparta (maybe), etc. They might not fight FOR the god of war, but will make him manifest in themselves as well.
war is the epitome of ignorance, and its ultimate evil trajectory leads us to the nuclear bomb!
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Senor_Doobie
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Re: Archetypes [Re: zzripz]
#23986029 - 01/06/17 08:52 AM (7 years, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said:
Quote:
Senor_Doobie said: So, the god of war to you is a manifestation of evil.
Historically, of course there is also a virtuous side. When one tribe attacks another, the only response is war. And to that culture, warriors become heroes. Like in Judaism, Sparta (maybe), etc. They might not fight FOR the god of war, but will make him manifest in themselves as well.
war is the epitome of ignorance, and its ultimate evil trajectory leads us to the nuclear bomb!
So oppressed people should not overthrow their oppressors?
-------------------- "America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat “Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.” -- Thomas Jefferson The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance. The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)
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Lucis
Nutritional Yeast

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Quote:
Senor_Doobie said: What archetypes stand out to you? How come?
My reoccurring archetypes takes on the form or angelic/alien beings, here's what I have gathered from these experiences.
Lucifer, Blue Angel/Alien - Seek knowledge, become wise, achieve growth in body/mind/soul through exercise, music, appreciation of the arts, don't follow the herd mentality, never stop searching for new ways to see things, handle strength gained through body/mind/soul building with humility and grace, seek no recognition for betterment of myself, instead use what has been gained to strengthen others who might be struggling with adversity in their life, move together as a whole, be a light.
-------------------- ©️
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zzripz
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Quote:
Senor_Doobie said:
Quote:
zzripz said:
Quote:
Senor_Doobie said: So, the god of war to you is a manifestation of evil.
Historically, of course there is also a virtuous side. When one tribe attacks another, the only response is war. And to that culture, warriors become heroes. Like in Judaism, Sparta (maybe), etc. They might not fight FOR the god of war, but will make him manifest in themselves as well.
war is the epitome of ignorance, and its ultimate evil trajectory leads us to the nuclear bomb!
So oppressed people should not overthrow their oppressors?
Is that war or self defense, or ARE we to set the definition of 'war' to mean one thing.
First let me find the etymology of that term, as I like to look at the roots of the terms being use:
Quote:
war (n.) Look up war at Dictionary.com late Old English wyrre, werre "large-scale military conflict," from Old North French werre "war" (Old French guerre "difficulty, dispute; hostility; fight, combat, war;" Modern French guerre), from Frankish *werra, from Proto-Germanic *werz-a- (source also of Old Saxon werran, Old High German werran, German verwirren "to confuse, perplex"), from PIE *wers- (1) "to confuse, mix up". Cognates suggest the original sense was "to bring into confusion."
Spanish, Portuguese, and Italian guerra also are from Germanic; Romanic peoples turned to Germanic for a "war" word possibly to avoid Latin bellum because its form tended to merge with bello- "beautiful." There was no common Germanic word for "war" at the dawn of historical times. Old English had many poetic words for "war" (wig, guð, heaðo, hild, all common in personal names), but the usual one to translate Latin bellum was gewin "struggle, strife" (related to win (v.)).
First record of war-time is late 14c. Warpath (1775) originally is in reference to North American Indians, as are war-whoop (1761), war-paint (1826), and war-dance (1757). War crime first attested 1906 (in Oppenheim's "International Law"). War chest is attested from 1901; now usually figurative. War games translates German Kriegspiel (see kriegspiel)
Don't know if that helps anything. So you ask is defending oneself, and one's others from oppression is also war?
I would says how can that be the same meaning of war as to what Smedley D. Butler is referring to in War is a Racket?:
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Foreword Excerpt from a speech delivered in 1933 by General Smedley Butler, USMC
War is just a racket. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.
It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent thirty-three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle-man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers.
I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.
But in defending does this mean WE must get a bigger nuclear bomb?
Hope not! That way leads to destruction of the natural world and organisms we all are deeply part of. That is not my idea of an intelligent defense against oppression.
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Senor_Doobie
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Re: Archetypes [Re: zzripz]
#23986418 - 01/06/17 12:17 PM (7 years, 24 days ago) |
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War is not a concept. It's a personality. It is hyper-aggression. I have made reference to an idea that there is a difference between people who act in the name of the war god, and those who only summon him when needed.
-------------------- "America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat “Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.” -- Thomas Jefferson The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance. The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)
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MarkostheGnostic
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I recommend the book Gods in Everyman by Jean Shinoda-Bolen, M.D., a Jungian analyst to answer your question from your own archetypal underpinnings. There is also Goddesses in Everywoman. I HIGHLY recommend both books. Using the Greek gods and goddesses of classical Greece, Dr. Bolen elaborates the phenomenology of archetypal forces as they were anthropomorphized in antiquity.
For example, I did pursue some Judo and Jujitsu in my youth, and my name is Mark (originally the Latin form Marc from Marcus), which is derives from Mars. I do not have a prominent martial archetype as depicted in Mars. Neither have I been a womanizer, a bully, a father of legitimate or illegitimate children, nor have I had a desire to be a father. Therefore the Zeus archetype has only arisen in the paternalistic way I evoked to work with adolescents as a counselor in my career. What IS prominent in my psyche is Hermes, the psychopomp who guides souls to the celestial and underworldly realms in myth. I am a psychotherapist and that is the manifestation of Hermes in my life. I used to be a bit of a trickster in my youth, another aspect of Hermes. I draw on reason, and have been considered to be logical (even in my high school yearbook of 1971). My MBTI typology corroborates this. This is Apollo's influence. I can be quite handy, although I know my limitations. However, I can build furniture, stain wood, repair some plumbing, electrical, and pool problems. I have worked with red hot iron from a furnace. This is the presence of Hephaestus. I have a goodly measure of Dionysus in my daily drinking of wine, my interest in madness and intoxication. There are other gods, but you get the point hopefully. The book will aid you in understanding what is dominant or latent, which archetypes might require some implementation.
There are other books worth reading like those by Gillette and Moore, but I really liked Bolen's books: https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Ddigital-text&field-keywords=gillette+and+moore
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Prem. Kissoff
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Being a reference to something within us all I'd say any physical representation of the god of war in our time would have to be a caucasian male american, full night raid gear with an AR and a neon cross around his neck.
Mythological archetypes are mostly dead, society has moved too far forward and the mtyhs/images of the past dont apply anymore.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Quote:
Prem. Kissoff said: Being a reference to something within us all I'd say any physical representation of the god of war in our time would have to be a caucasian male american, full night raid gear with an AR and a neon cross around his neck.
Mythological archetypes are mostly dead, society has moved too far forward and the mtyhs/images of the past dont apply anymore.
Your first statement applies to your own imagination, fed by material from your own experience. I can imagine it too by your description, but there are many iterations of the warrior archetype currently on the planet, everything from the solemn sentries at The Tomb of the Unknown in Washington, D.C., to the regal Queen's Guards in London, to the depravity of child soldiers in parts of Africa. The warrior archetype of which the mythic Ares was the official version in ancient Greece continues to be the dominant archetype active in these examples and every other actual warrior.
Archetypes do not die, they comprise the impersonal psychic infrastructure of the psyche. They may lie dormant in us, but they are always latent possibilities which can be evoked when needed. One may attempt to respond to an aggressor with Apollonian reason, but when this fails, another archetype might arise like the god Hephaistos, whose is known for ingenuity. The character in the TV show McGiver manifested Hephaistos, usually to thwart evil. Ares is usually associated with bloody combat, but the archetype governs the mentality of everyone who perpetrates or sits at the ready for warfare. Clearly, humanity has not "moved too far forward" in the least, archetypally-speaking, only technologically-speaking. Spearheads have become nuclear warheads. The intention is identical while the consequences have increased many orders of magnitude.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
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Ha, good to see ya Mark, I almost wrote the same retort. Archetypally-speaking, moving forward is moving back.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Quote:
Middleman said: Ha, good to see ya Mark, I almost wrote the same retort. Archetypally-speaking, moving forward is moving back. 
Thanks Middleman. Down in the psychic sub-basements of the unconscious, time stands still. Things do not change among the archetypes, although the archetypal images that are formed on the surface of life seem to change according to the times, from what's available to take form from. Regards to J.R. Bob Dobbs.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Senor_Doobie
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Mark! Thank you for your contributions here. Your knowledge is most welcome and appreciated indeed. I have not yet begun any formal reading of archetypal thinking as these concepts are very new to me. I have been listening to the lectures of Dr. Jordan Peterson and it is through him that I have come to know of such ideas. Are you familiar with him?
I do hope to read a lot about archetypal thinking. I am thinking of going to Jung to start, since he kind of started it. Have you read him? What do you make of his ideas on the archetypes of alchemy? How do they differ from those of ancient Greece?
I am also interested to know of any current day archetypal stories that you find particularly interesting. Peterson, for example, goes on and on about Pinocchio. And I love all that stuff.
Anyway, thanks for any information.
-------------------- "America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat “Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.” -- Thomas Jefferson The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance. The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)
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LRG
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I personally like the Samurai archetype. Foundations of Zen and living your life a certain way to set an example for others. Peaceful, calm, and warrior of the mind first and foremost.
-------------------- "I found it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay… small acts of kindness and love.” - Gandalf The Grey. "It is the mark of an educated mind to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle "I like to think of Jesus like with giant eagle's wings, and singin' lead vocals for Lynyrd Skynyrd with like an angel band and I'm in the front row and I'm HAMMERED DRUNK!" - Cal Naughton Jr. AKA The Magic Man. Abracadabra homes! "Each tear is a drop of poison released." - Anonymous "Could it be you're afraid of what your friends might say if they knew you believe in God above? They should realize before they criticize that God is the only way to Love."
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MarkostheGnostic
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I am not familiar with Dr. Peterson, but I have decades of experience in the Jungian school, from interning under analyst Jacob Goering in grad school and administering and hand-scoring 1000 Myers-Brigs Type Indicators, to undergoing almost a decade of Jungian analysis under 3 Zurich-trained analysts, to writing a Jungian-oriented doctoral dissertation, completed in 1983. My 2nd analyst, Rev. Dr. Roger Radloff was analyzed by Jolanda Jacobi in Zurich. Jolanda had been analyzed by Freud, Adler AND Jung himself. I was duly impressed at the time. I was also rejected from training in analysis (some personal history in my book that my wife was editing with me this very day), probably because of my involvement with psychedelics, which the 12 interviewers did not seem favorable to in the least. An interesting Synchronicity occurred was when I decided to purchase the Collected Works of C.G. Jung during my 1st year in grad school. The cost was high in 1979 - $629. Then my tax return arrived - exactly $629!!! I thought it was a 'sign from God' since I had recently graduated from a United Methodist seminary. 
For a couple of decades my interest in alchemy was intellectual and spiritual, but not physical. Then, half a dozen years ago I dusted off some lab equipment from childhood, added to it, and began to explore plant alchemy, Spagyrics.
I was married on 11/11/11 @ exactly 11:11:11 a.m. est, we kissed in an alchemical ceremony. The Emerald Tablet was our wedding vow. A Synchronicity occurred. We had inadvertantly performed an act of theurgy. For the second time a group of 9 ibis birds gathered in front of my house before the ceremony. The first time I saw ibises in my yard was 7 years earlier - sitting in a tree above a parcel which UPS had delivered - a statue of Thoth! There it was on the ceremonial table before which we were married, with ibises gathered outside - again.  If you are going to begin to read Jung, I recommend Man and His Symbols in hardcover as an introduction: https://www.amazon.com/Symbols-Carl-Editor-Franz-Freeman/dp/B0055RZ9KE/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1484697678&sr=8-2&keywords=man+and+his+symbols
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
Edited by MarkostheGnostic (01/20/17 03:56 PM)
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Senor_Doobie
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Thank you.
-------------------- "America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat “Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.” -- Thomas Jefferson The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance. The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)
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MarkostheGnostic
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Quote:
Senor_Doobie said: Thank you.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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