
SpecialEd
+ one
Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 6,220
Loc: : Gringo
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month

mathematical visualization of nihilism.
#2398013  03/03/04 01:01 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) 


Something I was thinking of:
A There is an infinite amount of knowledge in the universe B Man knows next to nothing about the universe C Infinity  1 = Infinity
D All of our attempts to gain knowledge hardly put a dent in infinity. No knowledge is possible.
 "Plus one upvote +1..."
 //

/l_l\/
\/

bert
bodhi
Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
Loc: state

Re: mathematical visualization of nihilism. [Re: SpecialEd]
#2398093  03/03/04 01:28 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) 


Who said there was an infinite amount of knowledge in the universe? Gaining knowledge doesn't substract from the information available...it is still there.
 Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.

Mal_Fenderson
Space Monkey
Registered: 07/31/03
Posts: 132
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada

Re: mathematical visualization of nihilism. [Re: SpecialEd]
#2398118  03/03/04 01:35 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) 


Infinity is a funny word to toss around. In a closed universe, talking about infinite amounts of anything seems crazy to me.
I mean, if there's a finite amount of matter, then there are finitely many different states possible which seems to indicate that there are finitely many things that we could encode using the matter contained within the universe. I think that perhaps instead of infinity you might want to say "indefinite". I'm also not sure what you mean by "in the universe".
I don't really know that's such a good "mathematical visualization" of nihilism =], namely because your conclusion doesn't follow. B seems to indicate that we know "next to nothing", but not "nothing". If we know at least one thing, that seems to defeat the second part of D, that is, the idea that "no knowledge is possible".
 
"Better Dead than Red."

trendal
tangential derivation
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,637
Loc: Ontario, Canada

Re: mathematical visualization of nihilism. [Re: SpecialEd]
#2398139  03/03/04 01:42 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) 


Why would you say there is infinite knowledge (ie: information) in the universe? For that to be true, I think the universe would have to be infinite in size. It is highly doubtfull that our universe is infinite in size.
If the universe is not infinitately large, then for there to be infinite knowledge (information) contained in it each point in the universe would be required to hold an infinite level of information. This is not the case so there can't be infinite knowledge available.
Thus there is a finite level of information available to us in this universe.

Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Sclorch
Clyster
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness

Re: mathematical visualization of nihilism. [Re: Mal_Fenderson]
#2398296  03/03/04 02:32 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) 


Who proved that the universe is a closed system?
 Note: In desperate need of a cure...

Sclorch
Clyster
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness

Re: mathematical visualization of nihilism. [Re: trendal]
#2398309  03/03/04 02:36 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) 


(briefly assumes a closed universe)
Can the level of information available to us in this universe be practically infinite? Would there ever be a person/robot/alien/computer capable of absorbing ALL of this information?
 Note: In desperate need of a cure...

Evolving
Resident Cynic
Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village

Re: mathematical visualization of nihilism. [Re: Sclorch]
#2398402  03/03/04 02:55 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) 


Wouldn't anything capable of absorbing ALL of this information have to be more complex than the universe (and all it's parts) that it was classifying?
 To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals  humans are rationalizing beings.

Sclorch
Clyster
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness

Re: mathematical visualization of nihilism. [Re: Evolving]
#2398414  03/03/04 02:57 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) 


Yes... thus reinforcing my concept of "practically infinite".
Must you connect the dots for everyone else? hehehe
 Note: In desperate need of a cure...

SpecialEd
+ one
Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 6,220
Loc: : Gringo
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month

Re: mathematical visualization of nihilism. [Re: SpecialEd]
#2398464  03/03/04 03:13 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) 


Yes, I think that everything there is to know is an infinite amount. How about knowing the location of each subatomic particle in the universe? Knowing every possible game of chess? Knowing every possible combination of the 26 letters of the alphabet? There is an infinite amount of knowledge to be attained!!!
As to why I think that D is a relevant conclusion,
If you accept that there is an infinite amount of knowledge and
You accept that humans are nowhere near knowing it all then
You can visualize all humans know as "1" and everything there is to know as "Infinity"
And, Infinity1= Infinity.
 "Plus one upvote +1..."
 //

/l_l\/
\/

trendal
tangential derivation
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,637
Loc: Ontario, Canada

Re: mathematical visualization of nihilism. [Re: Sclorch]
#2398540  03/03/04 03:37 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) 


Yes, in all practical terms the ammount of information to be had is "infinite".
However I do not like using the word "infinite" in this case, as "practically infinite" does not equal true infinity.

Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

trendal
tangential derivation
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,637
Loc: Ontario, Canada

Re: mathematical visualization of nihilism. [Re: SpecialEd]
#2398558  03/03/04 03:41 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) 


How about knowing the location of each subatomic particle in the universe? Unless there are infinite sub atomic particles...it is not impossible to know the location of all of them. It is highly unlikely...but not impossible.
Knowing every possible game of chess? Again, because the board is not infinite in size; the moves alowed are limited; and there are a finite number of peices on the board, the number of possible games is not infinite. Though it may be quite high, that does not equal infinity.
Knowing every possible combination of the 26 letters of the alphabet? In this case you could, I suppose, extend the length into infinity.

Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Xibalba
Stranger
Registered: 05/14/00
Posts: 2,114

Re: mathematical visualization of nihilism. [Re: SpecialEd]
#2398962  03/03/04 04:44 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) 


Edited by Xibalba (09/30/05 12:57 AM)

FrankieJustTrypt
and fell
Registered: 01/27/04
Posts: 537
Loc: MI
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months

Re: mathematical visualization of nihilism. [Re: SpecialEd]
#2399082  03/03/04 05:02 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) 


I believe the Universe is infinite, but in the same way that a circle is also infinite. I call it my Onion Ring Theory.
Basically I think that at one point the smallest things and the largest things are the same. IE: quarks are galaxy clusters... but thats assuming that theres nothing more in the loop, which is doubtful to me. Time is dependent on scale, no matter what scale you are at, it appears to be moving the same speed. To us, the stars and galaxies slowly move around over the course of billions of years, while quarks and subatomic particles move at the speed of light(i think)... But if scale was changed were quarks were the size of galaxies to us, we'd perceive them moving not at the speed of light or however fast quanta move... but at a very slow celestial body pace...
Kinda like a fractal universe you could say I guess.. Maybe someone already theorized this...
 If you want a free lunch, you need to learn how to eat good advice.

Letto
Load Universeinto Cannon. Aimat Brain. Fire.
Registered: 12/13/02
Posts: 2,321

Re: mathematical visualization of nihilism. [Re: trendal]
#2399174  03/03/04 05:16 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) 


I never venture into S&P (most of it is absurd and I don't feel like wasting my energy trying to refute it), but I clicked on this thread from the main board since I like math (though I don't see how this thread has ANYTHING to do with math). But something interesting, since I'm an avid chess player: It's been calculated that there are more possible positions on a chessboard than atoms in the universe. But that assumes the universe is inifinite, blah blah blah. Goodbye. My first and only post ever in S&P.

Alan Stone
Corpus
Registered: 11/23/02
Posts: 986
Loc: Ten feet up
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months

Re: mathematical visualization of nihilism. [Re: trendal]
#2399198  03/03/04 05:20 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) 


Quote:
trendal said: How about knowing the location of each subatomic particle in the universe? Unless there are infinite sub atomic particles...it is not impossible to know the location of all of them. It is highly unlikely...but not impossible.
Of course it is impossible. By the time you've determined the location of each particle, they will have moved, plus the machine that determines the location would have to account for the location of its own atoms. Ignoring the smartass solution to the problem, though: how about knowing both the location and velocity of each subatomic particle (assuming there's a limited amount of subatomic particles)?
 It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
 Aristotle

trendal
tangential derivation
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,637
Loc: Ontario, Canada

Re: mathematical visualization of nihilism. [Re: Alan Stone]
#2399331  03/03/04 05:53 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) 


I don't know if this is the "smart ass" solution you are looking for...
Quantum uncertainty denies the ability to know both the location and velocity of a particle at any given instant. Though I am sure you knew that, or why else would you have brought it up

Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Alan Stone
Corpus
Registered: 11/23/02
Posts: 986
Loc: Ten feet up
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months

Re: mathematical visualization of nihilism. [Re: trendal]
#2399349  03/03/04 05:57 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) 


Yeah, I did know that, and I meant the previous sentence was the smartass solution
 It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
 Aristotle

Anonymous

Re: mathematical visualization of nihilism. [Re: trendal]
#2399406  03/03/04 06:06 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) 


I don't think that our universe is infinite... because I believe it expands and contracts. An infinite anything could never contract all the way.
I do believe however, there is an infinite of some sort.. possibly an infinite amount of universes? or perhaps infinite amount of nonmatter or antimatter kinds of materials...
But the amount of actual planets and such things are basically uncountable by us...so in a way they are infinite as well. Maybe infinite is just our way of saying that our minds cannot grasp the amount of something... it might take a great being to understand how much of something is out there.

Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs

Re: mathematical visualization of nihilism. [Re: ]
#2399978  03/03/04 08:53 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) 


Even our mere human number system is infinite. There are three types of infinity, for lack of a better word: the first, and "smallest" infinite type, is all the numbers and equations possible. This itself is infinite, which makes the Nihilism statement, or at least the part about infinity, true, in my eyes. Then, the second largest level of infinity is all the places a point can be on a line or plane. Finally, the largest level of infinity is all the geometric shapes that can be constructed.
I believe there must be an infinite number of knowledge in the universe, if only because humans have created a system that can go to infinite knowledge.
 So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

SpecialEd
+ one
Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 6,220
Loc: : Gringo
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month

Re: mathematical visualization of nihilism. [Re: Letto]
#2400616  03/04/04 12:08 AM (14 years, 2 months ago) 


Quote:
though I don't see how this thread has ANYTHING to do with math
what about infinity 1 = infinity. That's mathish.
Yeah, I have a chess book that says the number of combinations far exceedes the number of atoms in the universe.
We should play sometime, even though I have been lax in my studies lately.
 "Plus one upvote +1..."
 //

/l_l\/
\/

