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OfflineSpecialEd
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Registered: 01/30/03
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mathematical visualization of nihilism.
    #2398013 - 03/03/04 01:01 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Something I was thinking of:


A There is an infinite amount of knowledge in the universe
B Man knows next to nothing about the universe
C Infinity - 1 = Infinity

D All of our attempts to gain knowledge hardly put a dent in infinity. No knowledge is possible.


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Invisiblebert
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Re: mathematical visualization of nihilism. [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2398093 - 03/03/04 01:28 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Who said there was an infinite amount of knowledge in the universe? Gaining knowledge doesn't substract from the information available...it is still there.


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InvisibleMal_Fenderson
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Registered: 07/31/03
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Re: mathematical visualization of nihilism. [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2398118 - 03/03/04 01:35 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Infinity is a funny word to toss around.
In a closed universe, talking about infinite amounts of anything seems crazy to me.

I mean, if there's a finite amount of matter, then there are finitely many different states possible which seems to indicate that there are finitely many things that we could encode using the matter contained within the universe. I think that perhaps instead of infinity you might want to say "indefinite". I'm also not sure what you mean by "in the universe".

I don't really know that's such a good "mathematical visualization" of nihilism =], namely because your conclusion doesn't follow. B seems to indicate that we know "next to nothing", but not "nothing". If we know at least one thing, that seems to defeat the second part of D, that is, the idea that "no knowledge is possible".


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: mathematical visualization of nihilism. [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2398139 - 03/03/04 01:42 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Why would you say there is infinite knowledge (ie: information) in the universe? For that to be true, I think the universe would have to be infinite in size. It is highly doubtfull that our universe is infinite in size.

If the universe is not infinitately large, then for there to be infinite knowledge (information) contained in it each point in the universe would be required to hold an infinite level of information. This is not the case so there can't be infinite knowledge available.

Thus there is a finite level of information available to us in this universe.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: mathematical visualization of nihilism. [Re: Mal_Fenderson]
    #2398296 - 03/03/04 02:32 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Who proved that the universe is a closed system?


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: mathematical visualization of nihilism. [Re: trendal]
    #2398309 - 03/03/04 02:36 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

(briefly assumes a closed universe)


Can the level of information available to us in this universe be practically infinite?
Would there ever be a person/robot/alien/computer capable of absorbing ALL of this information?


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: mathematical visualization of nihilism. [Re: Sclorch]
    #2398402 - 03/03/04 02:55 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Wouldn't anything capable of absorbing ALL of this information have to be more complex than the universe (and all it's parts) that it was classifying?


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: mathematical visualization of nihilism. [Re: Evolving]
    #2398414 - 03/03/04 02:57 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Yes... thus reinforcing my concept of "practically infinite".


Must you connect the dots for everyone else? hehehe


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: mathematical visualization of nihilism. [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2398464 - 03/03/04 03:13 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Yes, I think that everything there is to know is an infinite amount. How about knowing the location of each subatomic particle in the universe? Knowing every possible game of chess? Knowing every possible combination of the 26 letters of the alphabet? There is an infinite amount of knowledge to be attained!!!


As to why I think that D is a relevant conclusion,

If you accept that there is an infinite amount of knowledge and

You accept that humans are nowhere near knowing it all then

You can visualize all humans know as "1" and everything there is to know as "Infinity"

And, Infinity-1= Infinity.


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-- :meff:
  /l_l\/
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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: mathematical visualization of nihilism. [Re: Sclorch]
    #2398540 - 03/03/04 03:37 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Yes, in all practical terms the ammount of information to be had is "infinite".

However I do not like using the word "infinite" in this case, as "practically infinite" does not equal true infinity.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: mathematical visualization of nihilism. [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2398558 - 03/03/04 03:41 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

How about knowing the location of each subatomic particle in the universe?
Unless there are infinite sub atomic particles...it is not impossible to know the location of all of them. It is highly unlikely...but not impossible.

Knowing every possible game of chess?
Again, because the board is not infinite in size; the moves alowed are limited; and there are a finite number of peices on the board, the number of possible games is not infinite. Though it may be quite high, that does not equal infinity.

Knowing every possible combination of the 26 letters of the alphabet?
In this case you could, I suppose, extend the length into infinity.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibleXibalba
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Re: mathematical visualization of nihilism. [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2398962 - 03/03/04 04:44 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)



Edited by Xibalba (09/30/05 12:57 AM)


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OfflineFrankieJustTrypt
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Re: mathematical visualization of nihilism. [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2399082 - 03/03/04 05:02 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I believe the Universe is infinite, but in the same way that a circle is also infinite. I call it my Onion Ring Theory.

Basically I think that at one point the smallest things and the largest things are the same. IE: quarks are galaxy clusters... but thats assuming that theres nothing more in the loop, which is doubtful to me. Time is dependent on scale, no matter what scale you are at, it appears to be moving the same speed. To us, the stars and galaxies slowly move around over the course of billions of years, while quarks and subatomic particles move at the speed of light(i think)... But if scale was changed were quarks were the size of galaxies to us, we'd perceive them moving not at the speed of light or however fast quanta move... but at a very slow celestial body pace...

Kinda like a fractal universe you could say I guess.. Maybe someone already theorized this...


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InvisibleLetto
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Re: mathematical visualization of nihilism. [Re: trendal]
    #2399174 - 03/03/04 05:16 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I never venture into S&P (most of it is absurd and I don't feel like wasting my energy trying to refute it), but I clicked on this thread from the main board since I like math (though I don't see how this thread has ANYTHING to do with math). But something interesting, since I'm an avid chess player: It's been calculated that there are more possible positions on a chessboard than atoms in the universe. But that assumes the universe is inifinite, blah blah blah. Goodbye. My first and only post ever in S&P.


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: mathematical visualization of nihilism. [Re: trendal]
    #2399198 - 03/03/04 05:20 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
How about knowing the location of each subatomic particle in the universe?
Unless there are infinite sub atomic particles...it is not impossible to know the location of all of them. It is highly unlikely...but not impossible.



Of course it is impossible. By the time you've determined the location of each particle, they will have moved, plus the machine that determines the location would have to account for the location of its own atoms. Ignoring the smartass solution to the problem, though: how about knowing both the location and velocity of each subatomic particle (assuming there's a limited amount of subatomic particles)?


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: mathematical visualization of nihilism. [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2399331 - 03/03/04 05:53 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I don't know if this is the "smart ass" solution you are looking for...

Quantum uncertainty denies the ability to know both the location and velocity of a particle at any given instant. Though I am sure you knew that, or why else would you have brought it up :wink:


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: mathematical visualization of nihilism. [Re: trendal]
    #2399349 - 03/03/04 05:57 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah, I did know that, and I meant the previous sentence was the smartass solution :smile:


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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Anonymous

Re: mathematical visualization of nihilism. [Re: trendal]
    #2399406 - 03/03/04 06:06 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I don't think that our universe is infinite... because I believe it expands and contracts. An infinite anything could never contract all the way.

I do believe however, there is an infinite of some sort.. possibly an infinite amount of universes? or perhaps infinite amount of nonmatter or antimatter kinds of materials...

But the amount of actual planets and such things are basically uncountable by us...so in a way they are infinite as well. Maybe infinite is just our way of saying that our minds cannot grasp the amount of something... it might take a great being to understand how much of something is out there.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: mathematical visualization of nihilism. [Re: ]
    #2399978 - 03/03/04 08:53 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Even our mere human number system is infinite. There are three types of infinity, for lack of a better word: the first, and "smallest" infinite type, is all the numbers and equations possible. This itself is infinite, which makes the Nihilism statement, or at least the part about infinity, true, in my eyes. Then, the second largest level of infinity is all the places a point can be on a line or plane. Finally, the largest level of infinity is all the geometric shapes that can be constructed.

I believe there must be an infinite number of knowledge in the universe, if only because humans have created a system that can go to infinite knowledge.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: mathematical visualization of nihilism. [Re: Letto]
    #2400616 - 03/04/04 12:08 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

though I don't see how this thread has ANYTHING to do with math




what about infinity -1 = infinity. That's mathish.

Yeah, I have a chess book that says the number of combinations far exceedes the number of atoms in the universe.

We should play sometime, even though I have been lax in my studies lately.


--------------------
"Plus one upvote +1..."
--- //
-- :meff:
  /l_l\/
--\-/----


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