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OfflineKizzle
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #20107786 - 06/09/14 11:30 PM (9 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Never heard that before. Not that i doubt you but the common consensus is that fully colonized grains are contamination resistant.

At any rate I know that it was the spawn for those tubs as I went back and checked the plates used to inoculate and found a sneaky contam in them. I now am more wary of only doing a single transfer from spores,  especially with prints I did not take myself.



But it's not exactly fully colonized after you shake the grains apart. To clarify though I'm not talking about airborne contaminants. Trich is the main culprit people seem to be running into and Trich has sticky spores that spread by touch. If you've been handling a source of the mold, like soil or dust, you can cross contaminate anything you touch and freshly spawned grains are particularly vulnerable to it.


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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Kizzle]
    #20107801 - 06/09/14 11:37 PM (9 years, 8 months ago)

Well I might not use gloves while spawning but,  I usually wash my hands after playing in the mud :lol:

I don't mean to give the impression I have a lot of subs trich out before the third flush, I'm holding around a 90-95% success ratio. That spawn was the culprit, I got sloppy with the culture and I am certain that is the vector.


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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #20751053 - 10/25/14 10:23 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Time for an update. I have changed my position since the OP. Here's where I am on it now:

I'm confident my issues as described in the OP were because of contaminated spawn.

When I started to properly pasteurize CVG, I had zero contamination. However, I was also just getting in to agar as well at that time.

After many successful tubs from proper pasteurization, I started sterilizing my CVG, water bathing, and even bucket teking again. I have had 0% contamination rate.

I'm confident that my 100% success rate has to do with clean spawn due to agar work. Nothing else has changed. I still use the same coir, vermiculite, and gypsum.

It was a long process, taking over a year, to come to this conclusion. But, I feel as though I've proved it to myself. I think this is an important but often overlooked aspect of this hobby. You don't have to take anyone's word for anything, just prove it through experimentation and be open to the possibility that you may actually prove yourself to be wrong.

My position on this subject is now a firm "If it contams before the 2nd flush when using CVG, then it's your spawn". It's likely still your spawn even after that, but 2 flushes I think is a solid marker to be firm about.

Thanks to everyone who have participated in this debate. But, the debate can still continue for those who are interested.


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Offlinetripdawg420
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #20751131 - 10/25/14 10:45 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

:thumbup:


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: tripdawg420]
    #20751231 - 10/25/14 11:15 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

I can agree with that for me I had contams with pasteurized coir then started to get better when I got into agar then I started to sterilize coir and didn't get contams so :shrug: it was my skill with regards to clean spawn.


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Invisiblemaddchef
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: bodhisatta]
    #20753667 - 10/25/14 11:25 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Kizzle what diff does it make if the spores are airborne or stuck to ypur hands from handling a mold source? I'm assuming you mean only spores and not an alive culture of mold sticking to your hands?

Gotta be the first I've ever heard of grains being vulnerable when you spawn. If this is the case how would one even combat that?

Even with the air off and no drafts, with that large of a surface area you're going to get competitor mold in there no matter what.


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OfflineKizzle
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: maddchef]
    #20753834 - 10/26/14 01:38 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Both. Clumps of Trichoderma spores always have mycelium fragments mixed in with them, although the fragment don't survive very long.

The amount of dust that can be stuck to your hands, clothes and hair compared to the amount of dust floating around a fairly clean room is by far going to be largest source of contamination. If you touch a dusty surface you're picking up massive amounts of dust and it's easy to forget about if it happened say 5 minutes ago. Of course there'll always airborne mold floating around in any room, especially if there's been person in it. You kick up a lot of dust just walking around. It's minimize all sources.

It pointless to go through the work pasteurizing a substrate and then exposing to large amount of contaminants. I mean the relatively relatively brief open air exposure that's unavoidable is one thing.

I actually found mold growing on unspawned coir/verm for the first time and it was wrapped and in the refrigerator nonetheless. Now it was hardly normal circumstances. I had some leftover coir I figured I'd save and the only container I could think of to put it in was one of my "incubators" I wasn't using which is basically this

A tray of verm I set my jars in when it's cold. It's been sitting out in the air collecting dust for ages and I left the vermiculite in it figuring I'd pasteurize later and that it would fine in the fridge. Still it's a real eye opener, this is what I found.

That's only after a month in the fridge.


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OfflinePudgy
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Kizzle]
    #20754124 - 10/26/14 07:09 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Kizzle said:
I actually found mold growing on unspawned coir/verm for the first time and it was wrapped and in the refrigerator nonetheless. Now it was hardly normal circumstances. I had some leftover coir I figured I'd save and the only container I could think of to put it in was one of my "incubators" I wasn't using which is basically this

A tray of verm I set my jars in when it's cold. It's been sitting out in the air collecting dust for ages and I left the vermiculite in it figuring I'd pasteurize later and that it would fine in the fridge. Still it's a real eye opener, this is what I found.

That's only after a month in the fridge.




That is very interesting actually. There was a thread where Pasty pointed out the fact that his snake's coir wasn't growing mold even with snake pee/poo on it and whatnot. Essentially in that photo -- you have coir that was underneath vermiculite? So obviously it was like cased mold on that coir?

Was that brick or bagged coir?


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Pudgy]
    #20754371 - 10/26/14 09:10 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

I have a feeling the plastic over the top helped a lot with the mold growing. I've left hydrated coir and verm out for weeks and it just sits without growing nasty shit


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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: bodhisatta]
    #20754488 - 10/26/14 09:50 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

I put some bucketed coir verm in a ziploc bag and had it around for 2 years. Never grew anything but it started to dry out after 18 months. I eventually just used it to case a small mono.

Because coir is a product with poor quality control I would not be surprised if the few cases of mold in coir is nothing more than some foreign material in the brick, probably sawdust or leaves. Trich loves wood and will germinate on it readily. At that point however I doubt pasteurization is your answer.

Most wood lovers that are spawned in open air rely on their vigour and speed to take over the sub before molds can germinate.Others that are less aggressive are colonized in bags and the wood is sterilized not pasteurized. When I attempted to open air spawn hericum it never could take over the sub in time and that was with pasteurized and lime buffered substrates. Reishi on the other hand tore through sterilized sawdust (and coir) which was open air spawed in 4 days at a high sspawn ratio. No chance for mold to get in the door.

What does this mean? Well if your concerns are that your coir has foreign matter in it that could contam then you can try a few tactics. You could pasteurize it, though I doubt this will matter much. Pasteurized and even limed sawdust has about a week window IME. If you can't complete your spawn run in that time then your kinda hooped. A better approach would be to speed the spawn run up. Considering that coir have very little microbial activity your pasteurization attempt is not likely to do much.  Speed is more likely to be the difference maker here.

Some people have spawned to unpasteurized manure with success simply due to the speed of the spawn run. Better culturing practices, high spawn rates,  spawn with more nock points, grain dunking,  slurry spawning are all good ideas to increase speed. Sterilizing your coir can also lead to faster spawn runs, I have had many spawn runs done with 1:2 ratio and simple rye in 4 days. This is going to close the window for spores to germinate.  Spores that have landed on a grain that is recovering will not germinate if the culture recovers fast and consumes them eliminating that vector. Speed and strong culture are your best friends here IMO.

Anyway thats just my opinion. Clean spawn and lots of it will be your best tools. Making the nutes accessible to the myc is also going to help :thumbup:


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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #20754492 - 10/26/14 09:52 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

I do break apart my coir first to remove foreign object, you wouldn't believe the shit you find in coir bricks.


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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: bodhisatta]
    #20754506 - 10/26/14 09:58 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Me too. Rocks and sticks are most common but I also see nails and screws n shit. Pet grade are a little better than hydro store bricks, probably cause no one wants something sharp stabbing their snake or foreign material that make be toxic like ceder shavings etc. But its hard to argue with hydro store prices :lol:


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OfflinePudgy
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #20754518 - 10/26/14 10:03 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Rocks and sticks are most common but I also see nails and screws n shit.




Wow -- I'll keep that in mind.


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OfflinePudgy
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Pudgy]
    #20754523 - 10/26/14 10:04 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks for that write up Pasty, TONS of good information in that post that I haven't thought of or read anywhere else. That really should be somewhere readily available to noobs seeking grain or bulk.


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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Pudgy]
    #21012590 - 12/22/14 03:12 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

I find a higher success ratio when cooking more bricks in a tub than 1 brick in a pot or a bucket. I think it is because it takes longer to cool when making more coir at once.


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OfflineDirdyD
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: budmanman]
    #21548456 - 04/14/15 09:06 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Great read.

Bumping in hopes that others get a view that haven't already.

Congrats on the lesson, SBJ!


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OfflineRosen_Rot
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: DirdyD]
    #21648019 - 05/07/15 07:43 AM (8 years, 9 months ago)

I wanted to address the issue on why bucket teks are usedvat all. My thought is that perhaps the bucket tek can help ease transaction and get the user familiarised on why he does such things. Maybe the idea of pasteurising puts people off and overwhelming. Frequently I've read comments on how information on shroomery can be overwhelming due to its vast diverse methods and techniques.


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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Rosen_Rot]
    #21648066 - 05/07/15 07:59 AM (8 years, 9 months ago)

Bucket teks are useful to new people due to the fact that its very simple to do. Coir verm is very forgiving. Later on the bucket is great for people with a lot on the go. If ya need to prep 100 quarts of sub, buckets can do it really fast and easy. Its no good for complex subs but a great way to get fruits with small risk while your still learning.


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Offlinedanjaone
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: TranscendingLife]
    #23979032 - 01/03/17 02:37 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

this is very important!!!! coir brick is so dense and just throwing in a brick and expecting it to stay at temp while decompressing is careless.


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Offlinedanjaone
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: TranscendingLife]
    #23979036 - 01/03/17 02:37 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

this is mad important! needs more attention!!!!


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