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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World 1
#23976619 - 01/02/17 04:10 PM (7 years, 28 days ago) |
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I've been a student of Prof. Peterson for 15 years. He put a lot of energy into this message so I thought I'd share it here for posterity.
Dear World:
On January 16, I am going to talk with Sam Harris, on his podcast, Waking Up with Sam Harris. Dr. Harris is one of the so-called New Atheists, of which there are four. Like the other three Christopher Hitchens, Dan Dennett and Richard Dawkins – who, by the way, I have always wanted particularly to debate — Dr. Harris is a smart guy, and I’m certainly not complaining that I will encounter him, instead of Dawkins. So I am preparing my arguments, carefully (although I have been doing so for years. The specific ideas I am going to share with you today were obsessing me the moment I woke up, somewhat fitfully, this morning, so I dictated them to my son, and then edited them.
The central problem of human beings isn’t religion, as the New Atheists insist. It’s tribalism. We know this in part because chimps, our closest biological kin, go to war, and they are not religious, although they are tribal. Tribalism also has a central problem — and it’s not competition, despite the tendency of competition to produce, at least temporarily, winners and losers. it’s cooperation, because cooperation is what allows us to exist as bounded groups. A group, by definition is a collective cooperatively aiming at something. It can’t be aimed at nothing, because nothing cannot unite. It only divides. Thus, attacks on collective purpose, because of its tendency to produce tribalism, merely divides. The politics of identity, which emerge when the central purpose is criticized too destructively, inevitably produce the situation described in the story of the Tower of Babel: Everyone fragments into primitive tribes and speaks their own language.
One alternative to fragmentation is union under a banner – a collective ideal, cause, or purpose. The problem with uniting under a banner, as the postmodernists who push identity politics rightly point out, is that to value something means simultaneously to devalue other things. Thus to value is an exclusionary process. But the alternative is valuelessness, which is equivalent to nihilism – and nihilism does not produce freedom from exclusion. It just makes everyone excluded, and that is an intolerable state, directionless, uncertain, chaotic, and angst-ridden. When such uncertainty reaches a critical level, the counter-response appears: first the unconscious and then the collectively expressed demand for a leader, possessed by the spirit of totalitarian certainty, who promises above all, to restore Order. Thus, a society without a unifying principle, oscillates, unmoored, between nihilism and totalitarianism.
Human beings have been wrestling with this problem since the beginning of civilization, when our capacity to form large groups, for all its advantages, also started to pose a new threat: that of the hyper-domination of the state, collective or purpose. But without the state, there is just fragmentation into smaller groups. The group itself cannot be done away with because for better or worse, human beings are social animals, not loners, like sharks or tigers. We’re team players, but being on one team means not being on others. This means that any given team sidelines, marginalizes, and alienates those who cannot play their game, as well as conflicting with other teams.
In the west, starting in the Middle East, thousands of years ago, a new idea began to emerge (evolve is not too strong a word) in the collective imagination. You might, following Dawkins, consider it a meme, although this is far too weak a word. This idea, whose development can be traced back through Egypt to Mesopotamia, before disappearing into unwritten history, is that of the Divine Individual. This eons-old work of the imagination is a dramatic presentation of an emergent idea, which is the solution to how to organize social being without falling prey to nihilistic divisiveness or deceitful totalitarian certainty: The group must unite under the banner of the individual. The individual is the source of the new wisdom that updates the antiquated, nihilistic or totalitarian detritus and glory of the past.
For better for worse, that idea reaches its apogee in Christianity. The divine individual is masculine because the feminine is not individual: The divine feminine is, instead, mother and child. However, it a hallmark of Christian supposition that the redemption of both men and women comes through the masculine, and that is because the masculine is the individual. The central realization – expressed dramatically; symbolically – is that the subordination of the group to the ideal of the Divine Individual is the answer to the paradox of nihilism and totalitarianism.
The Divine Individual is the man that every man admires, and the man whom all women want their men to be. The Divine Individual is the ideal from which deviations are punished by the group with contempt and disgrace and fidelity to which is rewarded with attention and honor. The Divine Individual is not the winner of any individual game but the player who plays fair and is therefore continually invited to play. The Divine Individual is the builder, maintainer and expander of the state, he who boldly goes where no man has gone before, and someone who eternally watches over the widows and the children. His power of direct and honest communication is that which identifies, discusses and resolves the continually emergent problems of human existence. He is the Savior of the World.
The primary image for women is not the Divine Individual, because of the heavy burden they bear for reproduction. It is, instead, the Divine Mother and Child. This is not to say that man is the Divine Individual, and woman is not, although such confusion is understandable, given the complexity of the problem. Men, like women, have the Divine Mother and Child as an element of their personality. In men, however, it’s in the background, so to speak, as the Divine Individual is in the background of the psyche for women. Men, by necessity, play a less primary role in the care of children. This frees them to act as individuals in a manner that up to now has been nearly impossible for women. Identification with these images is belief in them. Belief is not the statement of agreement with a set of facts, but the willingness to act something out, to become something, to stake your life on something. For men and women alike, this means voluntary adoption of responsibility – responsibility for oneself, family and state. In that responsibility, and not in rights, resides Meaning itself – the meaning that makes life bearable.
Societies that refuse to recognize both of these elements therefore doom their inhabitants to purposelessness, unhappiness, sterility, and the aforementioned dangers of nihilistic divisiveness and deceitful, oppressive totalitarian certainty. The meaning in responsibility is the necessary meaning in life, which can serve as a counterbalance to its terrible fragility and tenuousness. People must unite under the banner, not of their group, and not of nothingness, but of the individual. This is a brilliant and intrinsically paradoxical solution to the problems of nihilistic nothingness and too-rigid group identity alike. It is the consciousness of the individual which transforms the chaos of potential into habitable cosmos, as the greatest origin stories repeatedly insist. It is that same consciousness which stands up, rebellious and revelatory, to break down the pathological and too rigid order of that cosmos when it has become old, infirm, wilfully blind, and corrupt. It is that consciousness which is the image of God. It dwells within every embodied human form. The fact of its existence is the reason that the Law of the Land itself must be bound by ultimate respect for the individual, regardless of his or her sins and crimes.
It is that consciousness, not the objective material substrate of Being, which should be regarded as the ultimate reality. There is no self-evident reason why dead matter should be given ontological primacy over living spirit. Although doing so has produced a massive increase in human technological power, it has left that power in hands of an increasingly disenchanted populace, and that presents a mortal danger. Such power must be wielded by those who have truly and voluntarily accepted the responsibility of Being, lest it prove fatal.
The West has long been the civilised embodiment of the idea of the divine individual, who does exactly that. That’s what the voluntarily lifting of the cross of suffering symbolically represents. For all its faults, which are manifold, the West has therefore served as a shining beacon of hope to those destined to inhabit places too chaotic or too rigid for the human spirit to tolerate. But the West is in grave danger of losing its way. The negative consequences of this can hardly be overstated.
A close reading of 20th century history indicates, as nothing else can, the horrors that accompany loss of faith in the idea of the individual. It is only the individual, after all, who suffers. The group does not suffer – only those who compose it. Thus, the reality of the individual must be regarded as primary if suffering is to be regarded seriously. Without such regard, there can be no motivation to reduce suffering and, therefore, no respite. Instead, the production of individual suffering can and has and will be again rationalized and justified for its supposed benefits for the future and the group.
Effective birth control has emerged as one of the consequences of our powerful technological materialism. This has been accompanied by the rise of states sufficiently civilized so that women who inhabit them can walk the streets unaccompanied in safety. We do not yet know how to balance the opportunities thus provided for expanded female individuality with the eternal necessity for a woman to serve as the Mother of the Divine Individual. Dividing our civilization into polarized ideological camps of female group identity and male group identity is certainly not the answer. We have to be honest, male and female alike, about what we really want, as individuals, and talk it out. We know beyond dispute that societies who emancipate their women are much more productive and peaceful, and that the relationship is causal. Thus, it’s not a matter of if but how.
But such emancipation places a dual burden on the now more autonomous woman, who is required to balance manifesting the potential of her individual spirit with the necessity of desire to bear and rear the next generation of mankind. To live with free women, and gain the advantages of their freedom and sophistication, men must therefore bring their shadowed psychic identification with the Divine Mother and Child into the light, without losing their Divine Individuality in the process. They must consciously, voluntarily, deliberately and strategically accept their responsibility for the relationship between autonomous female companionship, support, love, and the responsibility of producing that next generation. This means rejecting, among other things, the misbegotten idea of casual sexual gratification. Sex is either the impulsive, short-term gratification of a domineering biological impulse, or the union of two conscious spirits taking responsibility for what they are doing. The former is not commensurate with the demands of an advanced civilization, which requires the adoption of responsibility above all for its preservation, maintenance and expansion. It is for this reason that the sexualized interactions between young men and women – in universities, for example — are increasingly and inevitably falling under the harsh and tyrannical regulation of the state.
In the west, we are, as well, shuttering our great cathedrals – those marvelous, monumental embodiments of the idea of the Divine Individual on which our civilisation is based. This is no mere practical, material, matter: it is a symbolic and ideational process whose importance cannot be overstated. Without that central idea, we will dissolve, and be lost. It is time for each of us to consciously realize what the great symbolic stories of the past insist upon: That we are all sons and daughters of the divine Logos, consciousness itself — Bearers of its Light – and that we must act in accordance with that great central fact, lest all hell break loose. This means, above all, to tell the truth and to care for one another, starting at the level of the individual and proceeding from that, out to the broader reaches of society itself. The alternative, as those same stories have also always insisted, is the more permanent instantiation of the horror that we already saw manifest itself in multiple forms, in the last bloody, terrible, century.
We need to wake up, individual man and woman alike, and we need to do it now. Each of us must take the world on our shoulders, insofar as we are capable of that, and adopt individual responsibility for the horrors and suffering its existence entails. In that we will find the Meaning without which Life is merely the suffering that breeds, first, resentment and then the desire for vengeance and destruction. We need to take responsibility, instead of incessantly insisting on our rights. We need to become adults, instead of aged children. We need to tell the truth. We need justice and compassion, conjoined; not judgment and pity, which crush and devour.
So, in the coming year, make yourself a better person. Fix what you can and would fix. Start now. There is something right in front of you, demanding repair, calling out to your conscience, if you would only attend to it, for your corrective efforts, however primitive they may yet be. Start small. As you master the process, you can safely and competently expand your reach. You will then become able to fix bigger things, instead of making them worse, in the arrogance of your ignorance. If you do this, there will be less pointless and unnecessary suffering, and the world, for all its shortcoming and faults, will be a better place.
Until we can imagine better than that, that is Meaning and Purpose enough.
Happy New Year, and best wishes to you all.
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Morel Guy
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: Middleman]
#23976712 - 01/02/17 04:47 PM (7 years, 28 days ago) |
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Usually upbringing programming. Changing tribes after 25 won't change much.
Doesn't matter how you raise your kid either. Someone will be butt hurt about how you do that.
-------------------- "in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur" In filth it will be found in dung it will be found
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: Middleman]
#23976739 - 01/02/17 04:57 PM (7 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
The central problem of human beings isn’t religion, as the New Atheists insist. It’s tribalism. We know this in part because chimps, our closest biological kin, go to war, and they are not religious, although they are tribal. Tribalism also has a central problem — and it’s not competition, despite the tendency of competition to produce, at least temporarily, winners and losers. it’s cooperation, because cooperation is what allows us to exist as bounded groups.
I think one problem is figuring out how our hominid ancestors became tribal and developed new behaviours and cognitive skills that distinguished them from all the animals around them as sentient beings.
If I were to guess I'd say tribalism came about by learning to be able to grasp the hypothetical by inducing critical thought to apply logic to the abstract. Science in itself is accepting the hypothetical as true
Although it sounds odd to bring up it is given in an effort to answer this question.
Quote:
Is it possible to subjugate the fight or flight response through psychedelic habituation to develop ethics by being able to draw back from instinct to think critically and make the best decision for survival?
How else can we 'wake up' as a civilisation if we are all at odds about the origin of our morality?
For me I see an absolute truth in evolution so whether or not we know it yet it seems logical that the sense of morality and sentience that makes humans unique is something that evolved too.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Morel Guy
Stranger


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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: sudly]
#23976771 - 01/02/17 05:09 PM (7 years, 28 days ago) |
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Tribalism will be around for a long long long time.
Having things in common with people is important. New methods and tools as well as genetics.
Just imagine groups of human space travelers. Evolving differently in every aspect. It's the unknown meeting again. It's being open to possibility and not being closed. Some reservation is key.
I like trying new foods. That's one place anyone not totally ignorant can get along with others.
-------------------- "in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur" In filth it will be found in dung it will be found
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Kurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: Middleman]
#23976792 - 01/02/17 05:19 PM (7 years, 28 days ago) |
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Nice, I just saw this guy come out of nowhere on the Joe Rogan podcast last night. I only had a moment to listen and fell asleep, but he seemed interesting and well spoken.
I imagine Sam Harris will be a pretty reasonable interlocutor for him, ...as long as a broad discussion they might have, isn't bogged down too much in a particular issue of Islam...
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: Middleman]
#23977209 - 01/02/17 08:12 PM (7 years, 28 days ago) |
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The central problem of human beings isn’t religion, as the New Atheists insist. It’s tribalism.
I like Peterson, but I disagree. The tribal violence engaged in by chimps is really just a scaled up version of aggression and aggression is not the same as human evil. Evil requires a kind of dedication that chimps don't display. You can't draw a straight line from chimp violence to the holocaust without some serious holes in your explanation. Humans are ideological and religious animals unlike chimps. A chimp doesn't engage in violence for the "father land". There are no "self radicalized" chimps. People can believe in an idea so much that its worth diving for, chimps don't do that.
I look forward to the podcast.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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Kurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: Middleman]
#23977661 - 01/02/17 11:38 PM (7 years, 28 days ago) |
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I am looking over this now. What is this guy's message and argument actually? Basically he says we have to accept a "divine individual" to overcome identity politics? He's deep into this stuff. I am not sure I am ready to ride the wave of 2016-2017 zeitgeist, whatever it is. What does individualism "under a banner," as he says, have to come to be as something different than the individualism of a world of yesterday?
Edited by Kurt (01/03/17 01:23 AM)
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: Kurt]
#23977701 - 01/03/17 12:01 AM (7 years, 28 days ago) |
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Zeitgeist is based on the idea of a resource based economy that's self sufficient and fair, kinda like communism though I think. Good in theory not so much in practice.
Either way the movement is still in support of conservation and sustainable development which at the end of the day is what's important.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Kurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: sudly]
#23977803 - 01/03/17 01:14 AM (7 years, 28 days ago) |
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Zeitgeist is originally a german word that has nothing to do with what internet has established it to mean in particular. It just means "spirit of a time".
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: Kurt]
#23977834 - 01/03/17 01:32 AM (7 years, 28 days ago) |
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What the internet has established it to mean?
I say that the Zeitgeist movement is about a resource based economy because I've been to some meet ups with members of the movement who have a monthly discussion at a local library.
I'm going again in 2 weeks actually.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: sudly]
#23977840 - 01/03/17 01:35 AM (7 years, 28 days ago) |
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I posted my intro to it earlier too.

Quote:
The resource based economy(rbe) idea does sound good but overall I think the most realistic approach to achieving a sort of human paradise is to implement strong sustainability which is a form of management that recognises the impermanence and overall value of natural resources to focus on developing efficient technologies and a society with no reliance on fossil fuels.
A strong sustainability system follows what's called a nested dependency model which holds the environment as the most important factor in sustainability followed by the society and finally the economy. This is to say that preserving nature is valued more than short term economic gains.
With a well thought out system like strong sustainability the monitoring regulations can be done by following the nested dependency model, what I see as the main issue is getting change and actually implementing a new system which takes a lot of time and effort to do, probably a political movement too e.g. Young Turk, Zeitgeist Movement.
I think a systemic change is what’s really needed and with it comes social change. Trying to upset rich people takes an entire constitutional convention across all 50 states of the US and some serious re-regulating to remove tax loopholes that allow corporations to do such things as store their profits over seas in the Panamas to avoid paying federal taxes which equate to hundreds of millions of dollars for corporations like apple and google. There are definitely a few ways to upset the super rich
There really needs to be upstream political engagement with 2 way communications between regulators and the public BEFORE anything is implemented so that corporations can't apply profiteering agendas without being noticed before it's too late. Even though a systematic change sounds good in theory, in reality a global change is highly unlikely to happen. There are so many different governments and cultures around the world that some would even take offence to the idea, e.g. Saudi Arabia.
So far there are several million people involved in The Young Turks Wolf-Pac movement for a constitutional convention in America. Although it may take a while, in 2 years is the next senate election and the progressives are aiming to win those to start making the changes that need to be done to get to a society that resembles an rbe.
I prefer to focus on the US because Australia tends to follow them when it comes to political ideas e.g. buying war jets. The way I see it change over there means change over here. With a truer democracy the will of the progressive people is more likely to be implemented in the form of sustainable development and renewable technologies which can eventually lead to a more rbe like society.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Kurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: sudly]
#23977859 - 01/03/17 01:53 AM (7 years, 28 days ago) |
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It is a moot point Sudly. Sometimes a word is just a word you know? Just pretty much a basic semantic meaning.
This is what I meant, and it is a little different than the particular ideological movement you attach to the word.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeitgeist
Good luck with the environmentalist/conservation convention you are getting involved with. Let's follow the forum rules and let the thread get back on track.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: Kurt]
#23977895 - 01/03/17 02:30 AM (7 years, 27 days ago) |
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Yeah I'm pretty sure Sam Harris is involved in the Zeitgeist movement.
Quote:
The Zeitgeist Movement is a sustainability advocacy organization, which conducts community based activism and awareness actions through a network of global/regional chapters, project teams, annual events, media and charity work.
The movement’s principle focus includes the recognition that the majority of the social problems that plague the human species at this time are not the sole result of some institutional corruption, absolute scarcity, a political policy, a flaw of “human nature” or other commonly held assumptions of causality. Rather, the movement recognizes that issues such as poverty, corruption, pollution, homelessness, war, starvation and the like appear to be “symptoms” born out of an outdated social structure.
The “Natural Law/Resource-Based Economy” (NLRBE) is about taking a direct technical approach to social management as opposed to a monetary or even political one. It is about updating the workings of society to the most advanced and proven methods known, leaving behind the damaging consequences and limiting inhibitions. which are generated by our current system of monetary exchange, profit, business and other structural and motivational issues.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: sudly]
#23977900 - 01/03/17 02:34 AM (7 years, 27 days ago) |
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-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: Middleman]
#23977914 - 01/03/17 02:48 AM (7 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
Listen, on matter such as these, stick to the basics if you want change in the world. Too often people engage in philosophical masturbation that serves no practical purpose that is out of reach for the large majority that have to manifest this 'change on earth'. You can't achieve a global maximum on earth. There will always be tribalism. Tribalism is not the central problem of human beings. There is a more fundamental root cause of it that can never be changed. No clue how to get into this random assertion about the masculine/feminine. Is he trying to say its a force dominated world? Yes... Get to the point.
If it's not tribalism are you suggesting 'sin'?
Because holy books are horrible places to find the definition of sin.
Quote:
Leviticus 19:19 "'Keep my decrees. "'Do not mate different kinds of animals. "'Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. "'Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.
Quote:
Leviticus 11:9-12 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
Quote:
Leviticus 19:27 You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads nor harm the edges of your beard.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Kurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: sudly]
#23977918 - 01/03/17 03:01 AM (7 years, 27 days ago) |
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Man this thread's going to be great.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: Middleman]
#23977922 - 01/03/17 03:08 AM (7 years, 27 days ago) |
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Do you think humans are like biological computers? Because I do..
I believe the only control we have is how we react to our environment.
I think there is a natural system in humans that can be explained through a Tripartite model as such with the rational brain, the emotional heart and the instinctive gut.

I mentioned the bible versus because you mentioned tribalism is not the central problem of human beings.
I think to an extent that it is in the form of an overactive fight or flight response in a modern society that lacks physical danger.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: sudly]
#23977924 - 01/03/17 03:15 AM (7 years, 27 days ago) |
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The fight or flight response part is where you got it wrong. Humans understand our selves existing in time unlike other animals. This causes an existential dilemma which we use tribalism to solve. I might be dead in 50 years but my religion, society, sports club etc. will live on. It's a cognitive process rather than an instinctual response.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: blingbling]
#23977932 - 01/03/17 03:23 AM (7 years, 27 days ago) |
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We've only existed for the blink of an eye on the evolutionary time scale of life on Earth.

What existential dilemma is there? We evolved from our ancestors.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: Middleman]
#23977957 - 01/03/17 03:59 AM (7 years, 27 days ago) |
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All you've said is sense of morality.
We can rectify our perceptions to decide for ourselves what is good and what is bad.
Simply put I'd say we developed our own ethics.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: Middleman]
#23977975 - 01/03/17 04:29 AM (7 years, 27 days ago) |
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You're more mystical than I am.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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zzripz
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: Middleman]
#23978019 - 01/03/17 05:56 AM (7 years, 27 days ago) |
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As I understand it the 'letter' is just carry on patriarchal propaganda which idealizes the saviour as a male divine individual.
I choose to screw up letter and...throw it in the fire.
Done!
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viktor
psychotechnician



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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: sudly]
#23978076 - 01/03/17 07:04 AM (7 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: Do you think humans are like biological computers? Because I do..
Autism level = overload
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: zzripz]
#23978170 - 01/03/17 08:42 AM (7 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said: As I understand it the 'letter' is just carry on patriarchal propaganda which idealizes the saviour as a male divine individual.
I choose to screw up letter and...throw it in the fire.
Done!

The Letter
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: LunarEclipse]
#23978246 - 01/03/17 09:33 AM (7 years, 27 days ago) |
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letter rejected I guess.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: redgreenvines]
#23978298 - 01/03/17 09:52 AM (7 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: letter rejected I guess.
maybe i'm a little old and not wanting to waste time, but into the second page of the letter i just gave up! it seemed to be heading into some argument for a new world order, which i freaking hate.
really though, if you/anyone obviously not you needs that many words, it's just not going to fly. why so many words? can't they make an argument without a wall of text? it gets be like some legal proceeding or something i don't get it.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: LunarEclipse] 2
#23978364 - 01/03/17 10:20 AM (7 years, 27 days ago) |
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philosophers play a glass bead game with "formal" argument, in which they are allowed to be repetitive, obtuse, vague, as long as the form is sensibly addressed - if well received, the argument may be inducted to the greater body of "well thought out arguments", although most seem to be closer to folk art, rough carvings with little merit.
If successful in the form of the medium, philosophers will be respected by their peers, and tolerated by the masses. some get great teaching posts or even their own institutes, and then they can spend their days writing arguments that seem to resolve no issues except for the pride of the institution that supports them.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: redgreenvines]
#23978419 - 01/03/17 10:43 AM (7 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: philosophers play a glass bead game with "formal" argument, in which they are allowed to be repetitive, obtuse, vague, as long as the form is sensibly addressed - if well received, the argument may be inducted to the greater body of "well thought out arguments", although most seem to be closer to folk art, rough carvings with little merit.
If successful in the form of the medium, philosophers will be respected by their peers, and tolerated by the masses. some get great teaching posts or even their own institutes, and then they can spend their days writing arguments that seem to resolve no issues except for the pride of the institution that supports them.
So it's a 501c bunch of shit, in other words.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: Middleman]
#23978479 - 01/03/17 11:04 AM (7 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
proth said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said: philosophers play a glass bead game with "formal" argument, in which they are allowed to be repetitive, obtuse, vague, as long as the form is sensibly addressed - if well received, the argument may be inducted to the greater body of "well thought out arguments", although most seem to be closer to folk art, rough carvings with little merit.
If successful in the form of the medium, philosophers will be respected by their peers, and tolerated by the masses. some get great teaching posts or even their own institutes, and then they can spend their days writing arguments that seem to resolve no issues except for the pride of the institution that supports them.

Rockefeller Foundation grant recipient.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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Kurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: LunarEclipse]
#23978684 - 01/03/17 12:20 PM (7 years, 27 days ago) |
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He is aligning more with recent narratives, and insinuating something ideological rather than making arguments about the world.
What is the actual statement of "individualism"? How do we come to a new identification with the individual? Is there an actual principle to what this new individualism is?
Just thought I would add something constructive. Fair consensus though.
Only one thing... Lunar Eclipse, since when do you either make or discuss arguments?
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: Kurt]
#23978997 - 01/03/17 02:24 PM (7 years, 27 days ago) |
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Good questions. I'm really not interested in social justice. I just liked the last two paragraphs.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: Kurt]
#23979164 - 01/03/17 03:36 PM (7 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kurt said: He is aligning more with recent narratives, and insinuating something ideological rather than making arguments about the world.
What is the actual statement of "individualism"? How do we come to a new identification with the individual? Is there an actual principle to what this new individualism is?
Just thought I would add something constructive. Fair consensus though.
Only one thing... Lunar Eclipse, since when do you either make or discuss arguments? 
Since forever. I just use a shit ton less words than you do.
From The Beginning
Edited by LunarEclipse (01/03/17 03:39 PM)
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Hippocampus



Registered: 04/01/15
Posts: 753
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: Middleman]
#23979267 - 01/03/17 04:17 PM (7 years, 27 days ago) |
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I skimmed over the OP
I have been saying that tribalism is one of the main problems with humanity for a while. Totally agree with that. I'm not sure about all his specific points about how it's worse than religion and using it to debate with new atheists. I'm a bit of a new atheist myself. I don't see the points as mutually exclusive. Religion sucks and tribalism sucks too. Maybe part of why religion sucks so much is because of how much tribalism has seeped into the fabric of theology. But there's the whole basing of worldview off of completely made up nonsense and believing based solely on faith of strange philosophical things that don't make logical sense. That sucks too.
I like that last part about calling each person to action to take on the problems of the world in the ways they can and to grow psychologically, not just stay like adult children wallowing in their little psychological hangups our whole lives.
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Morel Guy
Stranger


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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: LunarEclipse]
#23979274 - 01/03/17 04:19 PM (7 years, 27 days ago) |
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I think a lot of it is religion. Religion makes or breaks the tribe. But honestly lot's of things can break a tribe and that is when religion is turned to. If not religion some other theme. Politics and religion get confused. Politics without religion tend to be overly strong.
I think a lot of us in the states have an 'it doesn't matter' theme. A we can't do much or it doesn't involve me. Even if it does matter or involve us there may be no solution.
I hardly see nations or states as tribes. Humans seem to blend wherever they go. We live a little of us and take a little of them. Maybe we aught to simply mix more. But there is so much hate and fear of mixing.
-------------------- "in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur" In filth it will be found in dung it will be found
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: Morel Guy] 1
#23979282 - 01/03/17 04:23 PM (7 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
Morel Guy said: I think a lot of it is religion. Religion makes or breaks the tribe. But honestly lot's of things can break a tribe and that is when religion is turned to. If not religion some other theme. Politics and religion get confused. Politics without religion tend to be overly strong.
I think a lot of us in the states have an 'it doesn't matter' theme. A we can't do much or it doesn't involve me. Even if it does matter or involve us there may be no solution.
I hardly see nations or states as tribes. Humans seem to blend wherever they go. We live a little of us and take a little of them. Maybe we aught to simply mix more. But there is so much hate and fear of mixing.
Some other theme, indeed. The herd mentality is strong. Nowadays, you can be a part of a herd but be separated by geography. We hear of all the commonality of the internet.
I think there is fear of real intimacy real blending you think it would be easy but it's not.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: Middleman]
#23980869 - 01/04/17 09:17 AM (7 years, 26 days ago) |
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I very much agree with everything Peterson says except his conclusion. A person cannot take the world on their shoulders. It's an idea that stems from the notion that not everyone is going to try so therefore others must try harder. If he got his wish and everyone did try and learn to simply be the idealized individual there would be no need for taking the world on our shoulders.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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dodgem
Learner



Registered: 08/04/11
Posts: 2,683
Last seen: 6 months, 14 days
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: Rahz]
#23982991 - 01/05/17 02:34 AM (7 years, 25 days ago) |
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--------------------
Walk where you like your steps
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 17 days
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: dodgem]
#23984125 - 01/05/17 02:52 PM (7 years, 25 days ago) |
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Giving = Socialism
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: BlueCoyote]
#23989238 - 01/07/17 11:20 AM (7 years, 23 days ago) |
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this thread just shows how confused this "paradigm shift" is.
Peterson is anti-SJW...yet here he is...preaching like one. but then again, i like his message more...not entirely...just more...yet he thinks he is 100% spot-on with his "divinity". just sort of confused.
no one even knows if what their proposals are really are workable. they just assume it can be.
Quote:
Philosophy is a akin to a shovel at an archeological dig. Psychology is like a mallet. More coarser grained tools are in order sometimes to uncover understanding. Broaden your toolset.
oversimplification. you don't use one or the other, you use both.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: akira_akuma]
#23989454 - 01/07/17 12:37 PM (7 years, 23 days ago) |
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get a leatherman if you need a good tool for an unspecified purpose.
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mt cleverest
clevendafodil

Registered: 08/19/12
Posts: 2,348
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: redgreenvines]
#24015023 - 01/16/17 03:14 PM (7 years, 14 days ago) |
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I'm pumped for this talk . I hope it's available tonight
Edit. Just saw that that Duncan trussel just had Peterson on his podcast so that should hold me over until the Sam Harris one comes out
Edited by mt cleverest (01/16/17 05:05 PM)
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: mt cleverest]
#24015300 - 01/16/17 05:00 PM (7 years, 14 days ago) |
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Just started listening to peterson and duncan trussel on the DTFH podcast. Pretty good so far.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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mt cleverest
clevendafodil

Registered: 08/19/12
Posts: 2,348
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: blingbling]
#24015308 - 01/16/17 05:05 PM (7 years, 14 days ago) |
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: mt cleverest]
#24015481 - 01/16/17 06:23 PM (7 years, 14 days ago) |
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Cool, I didn't know he was on DTFH. I loved Duncan's talks with Kornfield and Surya Das.
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mt cleverest
clevendafodil

Registered: 08/19/12
Posts: 2,348
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: Middleman]
#24015702 - 01/16/17 07:46 PM (7 years, 14 days ago) |
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I'm gonna try to look those up tomorrow. Can't get enough of Peterson right now. Duncan asked him right out if hes done psychedelics. I had a feeling he did
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: mt cleverest]
#24030907 - 01/22/17 03:31 PM (7 years, 8 days ago) |
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Oh man, that Harris interview was a bummer. Harris zoomed right in on an epistemological quibble and wouldn't let it go. He missed Peterson's primary message completely. Peterson should have read 'Waking Up' and Harris should have read 'Maps of Meaning.' Funny that I emailed Peterson about the same thing years ago. I asked about his interpretation of "Truth serves life." as "Only what serves life is true." I asked him what he thought about "Stake life upon truth." but I didn't receive a reply. Trussell's inteview of Peterson was a blast though.
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mt cleverest
clevendafodil

Registered: 08/19/12
Posts: 2,348
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: Middleman]
#24031034 - 01/22/17 04:22 PM (7 years, 8 days ago) |
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I felt the same way and wass getting really annoyed with sam's insistence on not exploring the topic thru other avenues. he should've been a more accomodating host.
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: mt cleverest]
#24031128 - 01/22/17 04:51 PM (7 years, 8 days ago) |
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True, but I think Peterson is making a serious error in his interpretation. Jordan is so insightful about so many other things, but Harris has a gift for highlighting fallacies of equivocation.
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mt cleverest
clevendafodil

Registered: 08/19/12
Posts: 2,348
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: Middleman]
#24032632 - 01/23/17 07:18 AM (7 years, 7 days ago) |
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in his interpretation of truth? how so? I might be off here but I feel like he doesn't much believe in truth at all, at least any kind of objective truth that can be grasped by humans so he settles for value and that which is good for him, his family and the human race is valuable. but harris was like "no we can't continue with the talk unless unless you define truth like me."
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: mt cleverest]
#24034762 - 01/23/17 10:56 PM (7 years, 7 days ago) |
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No, in his interpretation of Nietzsche. JP has the same script on all the interviews and he didn't get five minutes into it with SH. Hope there's a rematch.
"Hence the ways of men part: if you wish to strive for peace of soul and pleasure, then believe; if you wish to be a devotee of truth, then inquire."
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: Middleman]
#24035053 - 01/24/17 02:57 AM (7 years, 6 days ago) |
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JP's epistemology is at its core the same as the postmodernist's he is attempting to fight. The guy is a walking contradiction. I still like some of his insights though.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: blingbling]
#24035211 - 01/24/17 06:04 AM (7 years, 6 days ago) |
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yeah, it's post-post-postmodernim...oh well, people are individuals. they have their own sense of mind and, thus, knowledge.
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psychobla
Stranger

Registered: 09/18/15
Posts: 223
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World *DELETED* [Re: akira_akuma]
#24035877 - 01/24/17 12:03 PM (7 years, 6 days ago) |
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Post deleted by psychobla
Reason for deletion: hax
-------------------- A bunch of jokes, with a grain of truth in each. The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese. What will be, will be.
Edited by psychobla (01/24/17 12:14 PM)
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: psychobla] 1
#24036629 - 01/24/17 05:02 PM (7 years, 6 days ago) |
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I think it was definitely annoying that Harris kept pushing the same issue, but at the same time that is what a philosopher should do, and so we got to hear some real philosophy. In my opinion Harris owned JP regarding epistemology, when JP said "I don't necessarily think facts are true" he totally gave up on logical argumentation. I think he wants to justify his religious beliefs and drags that into his epistemology. And we never would have seen that if Harris had of just let him get away with such an illogical argument.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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psychobla
Stranger

Registered: 09/18/15
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World *DELETED* [Re: blingbling]
#24038271 - 01/25/17 10:21 AM (7 years, 5 days ago) |
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Post deleted by psychobla
Reason for deletion: hax
Edited by psychobla (01/25/17 10:25 AM)
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: psychobla]
#24039363 - 01/25/17 05:34 PM (7 years, 5 days ago) |
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As far as I know the hypothetical can be grasped as a hypothetical fact with enough experimentation and observation.
Quote:
All we can do is appeal to scientific values , the value of understanding the world, the value of evidence, the value of logical consistency.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: sudly]
#24039802 - 01/25/17 08:51 PM (7 years, 5 days ago) |
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"I think when JP said "I don't necessarily think facts are true" he was simply trying to draw a distinction between different layers of truth.
Some "facts" can contradict each other or be presented in a dishonest way. "
No, he was literally saying that a fact is not true if it disregards human wellbeing. That was why Harris kept pushing him on this subject. Its true that the sky is blue regardless of what that might mean for the welfare of mankind. JP would say that the sky is blue only if it means human welfare is increased.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: blingbling]
#24039827 - 01/25/17 09:02 PM (7 years, 5 days ago) |
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I don't think human welfare effects the colour of the sky or how the gases in the Earths atmosphere reflect light coming from the Sun.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: sudly] 1
#24039832 - 01/25/17 09:05 PM (7 years, 5 days ago) |
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Then you disagree with JP. Congratulations for not being philosophically depraved. It takes a lot of thinking to become as confused as JP. He is brilliant in other ways though.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: blingbling]
#24053472 - 01/31/17 02:20 AM (6 years, 11 months ago) |
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Just started listening to the Jordan B Peterson podcast, its really good.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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mt cleverest
clevendafodil

Registered: 08/19/12
Posts: 2,348
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: blingbling]
#24160806 - 03/14/17 05:27 AM (6 years, 10 months ago) |
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's New Year’s Letter to the World [Re: mt cleverest]
#24167696 - 03/16/17 04:53 PM (6 years, 10 months ago) |
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Great talk, lol @ Cain's rape panther.
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