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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: How 'imperfect' are you? [Re: BlueCoyote]
#23991794 - 01/08/17 08:19 AM (7 years, 22 days ago) |
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blue, how do you know that a concept (idea) existed before we were here to think it, share it, codevelop it etc.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


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Maybe just let's take 'fire' as an example. Our ancestors did exist very long without the usage of fire. Like generally every other animal on this planet (there might be exceptions). They didn't have the concept of using it yet, right ? Maybe they wished for it, knew it was making light and warmth but they had no idea how to start, use or possess it. It was not conceptualized yet, even it existed before.
I'm speculating now, but I guess you can take any (basic) human invention and you will find relevance and similarities of those concepts already functioning in nature itself. They might be better called 'discoveries'. Isn't it funnily often called the 'invention of fire', the 'invention' of morse code, even the 'invention' of electricity ?  Of course that's not true for specific complex machines, I guess, but the 'concept' of machines even exists in nature before we had any idea of it anyhow 
We could move on to social concepts, such like family, friendship, war, etc... We didn't invent it. It all was there before in nature.
And by a side note. Exactly that is why it is so horrifying to loose this nature by our human idiocy. We are cut off from our roots to verify the concepts in plain nature and how they work together. So as a result it is much easier to propagate idiotic concepts (which work, but regularly have other huge disadvantages) to influence and control the non knowing population into some desired direction.
Sorry for the ramble.
Edited by BlueCoyote (01/08/17 03:37 PM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Re: How 'imperfect' are you? [Re: BlueCoyote]
#23992816 - 01/08/17 03:50 PM (7 years, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
BlueCoyote said: Maybe just let's take 'fire' as an example.
the idea of fire occurred as soon as a person or animal saw it. the idea of using or starting a fire came later
Quote:
BlueCoyote said: ... but I guess you can take any (basic) human invention and you will find relevance and similarities of those concepts already functioning in nature itself. They might be better called 'discoveries'. Isn't it funnily often called the 'invention of fire', the 'invention' of morse code, even the 'invention' of electricity ?  Of course that's not true for specific complex machines, I guess, but the 'concept' of machines even exists in nature before we had any idea of it anyhow 
We could move on to social concepts, such like family, friendship, war, etc... We didn't invent it. It all was there before in nature.
And by a side note.
this sounds great but it is full of assumptions that ignore the basic difference between the thing existing and the idea of a thing existing. An idea of a thing only exists when a mind picks up, holds, or records that idea. The idea of it did not exist because the thing existed on it's own.
Below you go on about relationships existing before they were imagined which is a double disconnect for me, since in any culture a relationship is shaped by the culture, but the culture itself was shaped by history after evolution. Even the relationships of wolves who have social structure evolved to what it is today.
parentage existed, but as societies exist through time, the meaning of parentage has expanded etc. from merely genetic donor to moral and cultural interpreter.
things give rise to ideas, which become things in themselves, and condition the things they were derived from by conditioning the culture that exists because it 'functionally' formalizes relationships.
Quote:
BlueCoyote said:Exactly that is why it is so horrifying to loose this nature by our human idiocy. We are cut off from our roots to verify the concepts in plain nature and how they work together. So as a result it is much easier to propagate idiotic concepts (which work, but regularly have other huge disadvantages) to influence and control the non knowing population into some desired direction.
Sorry for the ramble.
good ramble
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

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Re: How 'imperfect' are you? [Re: BlueCoyote]
#23992913 - 01/08/17 04:14 PM (7 years, 22 days ago) |
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That's a pretty platonic way of looking at things. Plato argued that geometry existed before it was conceptualised and used the fact that it can be 'realised' rather than 'taught' as evidence for this. It's kinda hard to explain. It's kinda like how what is logical is logical regardless of the facts. 2+2=4 no matter whether we are talking about apples or oranges. So logic and by extension geometry must exist prior to material reality. All things exist in the ether before they find material existence. I'm not really into that sort of thing, but it is interesting.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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BlueCoyote
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Nobody needs to name a concept for it to exist in reality 
[Aehm except for creation mode, lol. But that's another story where things go vice versa ]
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


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Re: How 'imperfect' are you? [Re: blingbling]
#23992971 - 01/08/17 04:34 PM (7 years, 22 days ago) |
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'zackly "geometry" did not exist until it was thought through, but geometries and geometric shapes and relations have been fundamental physical realities long before they were observed, before life even existed,, and certainly way before they were thought about.
Later these relationships and shapes were formalized into the language of geometry with the analytic mathematics that weaves through those ideas.
All relate to realities that existed before being observed and considered (before having been given mental weight, presence, mental-materiality: ideas)
but until they were mentally picked up, they did not exist as ideas
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
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Well logic must be a truth regardless of what physical material exists in the universe, so in some sense I guess it must exist prior to someone having the idea 2+2=4. But this stuff can get pretty tricky and I don't really know enough about it to be sure one way or the other. Some of the quantum mechanics stuff seems to defy logic, but that could just be because we haven't measured it right, don't have the right theory etc.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


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Re: How 'imperfect' are you? [Re: blingbling]
#23993705 - 01/08/17 08:30 PM (7 years, 22 days ago) |
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We may have named physics physics but we didn't invent it.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

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Re: How 'imperfect' are you? [Re: sudly]
#23994415 - 01/09/17 05:25 AM (7 years, 21 days ago) |
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Maybe it doesn't make sense, but the great thing about philosophy is that now we get to spend the next 5000 years arguing over why it doesn't make sense
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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BlueCoyote
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Re: How 'imperfect' are you? [Re: BlueCoyote]
#23995362 - 01/09/17 02:06 PM (7 years, 21 days ago) |
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To add a bit to this beautiful thread:
Quote:
BlueCoyote said: Nobody needs to name a concept for it to exist in reality 
But it helps our minds a lot to understand what's going on... But be aware, even if concepts reach into the spiritual realm, most of them are by no way eternal, but also only conditional. And ideas, are kind of even more spiritual than concepts, I guess. They reach into the ideal (edit:back to the thread), which is the iconic unchanging, which is not physically representable.
Edited by BlueCoyote (01/09/17 02:22 PM)
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beforethedawn
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Re: How 'imperfect' are you? [Re: BlueCoyote]
#23995416 - 01/09/17 02:33 PM (7 years, 21 days ago) |
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That's one position. Another is, yes, we did invent it. Depends who you ask.
-------------------- Hostile humankind Can't you see you're fucking blind?
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
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Re: How 'imperfect' are you? [Re: blingbling]
#23995508 - 01/09/17 03:16 PM (7 years, 21 days ago) |
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Well then, how about we ask a different question.
Quote:
Was calculus discovered or invented?
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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BlueCoyote
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Re: How 'imperfect' are you? [Re: sudly]
#24004291 - 01/12/17 02:26 PM (7 years, 18 days ago) |
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Great find !
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RJ Tubs 202


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Re: How 'imperfect' are you? [Re: sudly]
#24005330 - 01/12/17 07:38 PM (7 years, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said:
What's one thing you would like to improve about yourself?
Abandoning the notion I can become an improved version of myself.
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T-Funkadelic
Hepatitis G


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I know I'm not perfect, nor do I ever plan to be. I feel like a piece of shit sometimes even though I'm actually at a point in my life where I'm doing way better than I've ever did. My greatest achievements from back in my problem days don't really mean shit to me today. But I try to not let my thoughts of where I think I should be overwhelm me. I'm me bitches!
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Tmethyl
Smear in the shale


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Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:
sudly said:
What's one thing you would like to improve about yourself?
Abandoning the notion I can become an improved version of myself.

It would be like putting lipstick on a turd. Sure the turd is prettier than it was, but it's still a turd.
Maybe I undervalue personal identity?  Personal identity wrote this post.   I watched it happen.  
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Prem. Kissoff
Tourist with a typewriter

Registered: 11/09/16
Posts: 259
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Re: How 'imperfect' are you? [Re: sudly]
#24005522 - 01/12/17 08:41 PM (7 years, 18 days ago) |
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Cutting back on beer would be a big plus for mind/body/soul
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RJ Tubs 202


Registered: 09/20/08
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Re: How 'imperfect' are you? [Re: Tmethyl]
#24008277 - 01/13/17 09:04 PM (7 years, 17 days ago) |
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I refuse to make my life a perpetual self-improvement project.
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Buster_Brown
L'une


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And yet we are clay in the potter's hands.
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Prem. Kissoff
Tourist with a typewriter

Registered: 11/09/16
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So imperfect I fucked up my agar both too moist and too dry, eeenuhhhh.
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