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InvisibleCelestial Traveler
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Might Socrates be a ficitonal character?
    #23972249 - 01/01/17 01:54 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

I'm by no means an expert on classical literature, or any type of literature for that matter.  But I've done a tiny bit of research on Socrates, and have learned that he wrote nothing himself and is only recorded in dialogues of writers who were allegedly his students at some point.

The dialogues themselves are obviously fiction, to the extent that many of them are in third-person, and clearly cannot be word-for-word literal transcriptions of conversations that actually took place.

Could Socrates have been some type of popular figure that was just recycled over and over again by different writers?

If this question/idea seems completely ignorant or uninformed then I wouldn't be that surprised, since I'm nothing close to an expert as I said.  Just wanted to know if this scenario is plausible or not.


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Offlineviktor
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Re: Might Socrates be a ficitonal character? [Re: Celestial Traveler]
    #23972253 - 01/01/17 02:01 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

I think Socrates and Jesus might have been the same person.


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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: Might Socrates be a ficitonal character? [Re: Celestial Traveler]
    #23972301 - 01/01/17 03:22 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Its a question that has been asked and argued many times over, obviously the standard agreement is that due to a few complimentary accounts he was real. Its important to note that all of Socrates teachings come from second hand accounts.
All of that said personally I don't think it's important.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Might Socrates be a ficitonal character? [Re: Celestial Traveler]
    #23972330 - 01/01/17 04:09 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

I like Plato.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Might Socrates be a ficitonal character? [Re: sudly]
    #23972339 - 01/01/17 04:27 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Interesting to entertain the idea, but It does not bother me whichever it is.
Its the teachings and lessons that Interest me most.  Asking if someone from the distant past was real is precarious, regardless of the answer what we have today about the man in question certainly came from a actual persons mind - his or someone else.  It reminds me of when people bring up the same thing for Shakespeare. 

Say he was a ghost name of another thinker back in the day, and in writing about "Socrates" he gave himself creative license to delve deeply into questioning the nature of many things of his day and ours - the body of work remains , like a myth or a fairy tale, real or not - it imparts wisdom and instills knowledge in those who contemplate its mysteries... and when heedful may even shed light.

If he was an actual person all the better, no?  I think the mystery of his identity itself lends to a sort of reverence which can be of value when attempting to learn about the world within us and around us through Socrates eyes and mind and our own.

Slightly off-topic... but!
Imagine if Socrates never had his legendary encounter with the Oracle of Delphi? :excuseme:

Edited by The Blind Ass (01/01/17 04:34 AM)

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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: Might Socrates be a ficitonal character? [Re: Celestial Traveler]
    #23972381 - 01/01/17 06:15 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Whether or not a person with that name existed is a little different than asking if it's the same person described by plato. If you ask me, plato certainly provides a fictional account. Maybe it was based on a real person, maybe it wasn't, but I definitely think plato's accounts are fiction. However, he does accurately describe the effects of a very specific poison, but it's likely that he could have relatively easily seen people dying from this poison.

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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Might Socrates be a ficitonal character? [Re: nooneman]
    #23972385 - 01/01/17 06:26 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Would Plato have created Socrates for some specific purpose?  It certainly is possible given Socrates never actually wrote anything down ... it seems somewhat unlikely to me ...


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"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master

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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: Might Socrates be a ficitonal character? [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #23972388 - 01/01/17 06:32 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Well, plato's style of writing generally involves people talking to each other to illustrate or debate some point. A character like socrates in such a fictional scenario would actually make a lot of sense.

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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Might Socrates be a ficitonal character? [Re: nooneman]
    #23972395 - 01/01/17 06:41 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
Well, plato's style of writing generally involves people talking to each other to illustrate or debate some point. A character like socrates in such a fictional scenario would actually make a lot of sense.




Or the words of a dedicated student trying to accurately represent the words of his teacher would make sense too.  A mystery that will never be solved. 

Most certainly, however, Plato and Aristotle DID exist and it is curious that neither of them, in any of their writings, suggest Socrates was a character of fiction.


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"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master

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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: Might Socrates be a ficitonal character? [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #23972396 - 01/01/17 06:42 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah but if he wasn't then why don't we have any of his writings?

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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Might Socrates be a ficitonal character? [Re: nooneman] * 1
    #23972400 - 01/01/17 06:47 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Plot twist...Socrates was illiterate :excuseme:


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Might Socrates be a ficitonal character? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #23972404 - 01/01/17 06:52 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Or like some of the more iconoclastic schools of buddhism ie. Zen(chan) in the Rinzai sect there are some monks that at a certain point would not write and would burn their books.
Generally after some sort of break through... also some were illiterate in older times, and this is not the rule for them but I have noticed in reading that there were a few notable monks or masters who did not write.  Or if they did write it would be for a specific time and place in their lives and then after it served its purpose it would be destroyed, akin to the practice of some schools in Tibet that make the art of creating sand mandalas- which is most praised when used as an object of focus to develop samadhi.

A testament to the discipline and depth of insight was said to be reflected by those who could take so much time and hard work and use it to create elaborate and intricate beautifully created art pieces that either represented a canon teaching or a special experience of insight - only to be destroyed soon after its completion - for it was the act of doing said thing -  in meditation - that was the goal - not the end result...also a token gesture or expression to/of the impermanent nature of form and emptiness - a well covered, near core teaching of the Buddhas.

Perhaps if Socrates was really his own person he was a bit like that?  Only speculation and conjecture, but it is one possible explanation for his lack of writing material.

Edited by The Blind Ass (01/01/17 07:06 AM)

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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Might Socrates be a ficitonal character? [Re: nooneman]
    #23972405 - 01/01/17 06:53 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
Yeah but if he wasn't then why don't we have any of his writings?




These events took place over 2,400 years ago.  Is it possible his writings were lost to history?  Perhaps he wasn't a very good writer?  How many brilliant people have walked this planet that expressed themselves verbally very well but left nothing written behind?


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master

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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Might Socrates be a ficitonal character? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #23972406 - 01/01/17 06:56 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
or like some of the more iconoclastic schools of buddhism ie. Zen(chan) in the Rinzai sect there are some monks that at a certain point would not write and would burn their books.
Generally after some sort of break through... also some were illiterate in older times, and this is not the rule for them but I have noticed in reading that there were a few notable monks or masters who did not write.




Milarepa for instance ... He taught through songs that others wrote down as he sang them.  Although Padmasambhava is credited with overseeing many translations of the the Dharma and tantric scripture in particular, he left no writings of his own behind ... his followers did, however.  These are two of the most consequential figures of Himalayan Buddhism that didn't write anything themselves.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master

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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Might Socrates be a ficitonal character? [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #23972410 - 01/01/17 07:11 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Exactly... that and just the rungs of time possibly fail to pass along their personal writings - considering we are talking about hundreds of years ago  - the condition of the material they wrote upon , the ink or whatever they used to actually write with, combined with its storage throughout time while being subject to centuries worth of war, weather, and wear and tear use, simply being misplaced and lost or stolen and plagiarized! etc etc...all can contribute to source material of an individual being lost in time.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Might Socrates be a ficitonal character? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #23973168 - 01/01/17 02:15 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
Exactly... that and just the rungs of time possibly fail to pass along their personal writings - considering we are talking about hundreds of years ago  - the condition of the material they wrote upon , the ink or whatever they used to actually write with, combined with its storage throughout time while being subject to centuries worth of war, weather, and wear and tear use, simply being misplaced and lost or stolen and plagiarized! etc etc...all can contribute to source material of an individual being lost in time.




Eventually, even with the generous up front tax deductions, you have to capture that depreciation at the inflated rate in the future.


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InvisiblePatrickKn
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Re: Might Socrates be a ficitonal character? [Re: nooneman]
    #23973907 - 01/01/17 06:58 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
Yeah but if he wasn't then why don't we have any of his writings?



Because he wasn't a writer.

http://www.english.illinois.edu/-people-/faculty/debaron/482/482readings/phaedrus.html

Though I suppose one could say that this is Plato writing from Socrates' point of view, and is a fictional recount as a result. Socrates would say as much if I have anything to say of it, which I do, and he's not in any position to refuse.

Edited by PatrickKn (01/01/17 07:25 PM)

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