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Memories



Registered: 05/09/12
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Loc: Suwannee River
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Filling the Void
#23968916 - 12/30/16 07:02 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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It's been a while since I've posted here. Hope some familiar faces will be able to chime in.
How many of you relate to feeling a sort of ever present void inside of you, typically stemming from a general dissatisfaction with life and the lack of any sort of concrete meaning or purpose on how, or even why, one should continue living?
I was sober for over a year, and i was able to find some relatively effective distractions in the forms of art, exercise, and meaningful social interaction, but even with these tools, there always seems to be that emptiness inside of me.
Lately i feel like i've been coming back to the idea of death anxiety being the primary human motivator, and the diverse actions we engage in primarily serving the purpose of distracting us from the ultimate fate we will all share.
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funkmastakush
Outlander

Registered: 08/24/14
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Re: Filling the Void [Re: Memories]
#23968932 - 12/30/16 07:09 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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I can relate to this. Especially after taking shrooms.
I have already accepted the fact that there really is no purpose to humanity. Just a series of coincidinces brought us here. Death is inevitable. In the end, I think that time is the most important thing. To use your time in this reality to explore and get the most out of experiences. Life is what you make it.
-------------------- “If the words ‘life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness’ don’t include the right to experiment with your own consciousness, then the Declaration of Independence isn’t worth the hemp it was written on.” -Terence McKenna "Patience you must have my young Padawan" -Yoda
 
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
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Re: Filling the Void [Re: Memories]
#23968937 - 12/30/16 07:12 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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I think meanings are subjective and objective purpose is that of DNA to self replicate.
My personal meanings come from the value I place on my life and nature because when I think about it I realise that I only have one chance to live and I'm grateful for it.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Re: Filling the Void [Re: Memories]
#23968962 - 12/30/16 07:21 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Memories said: ... How many of you relate to feeling a sort of ever present void inside of you, typically stemming from a general dissatisfaction with life and the lack of any sort of concrete meaning or purpose on how, or even why, one should continue living? ...
welcome back Memories how did you get from that teaser about emptiness to the notion of death anxiety.
I thought you would make a more elaborate description about the Void, and maybe Filling the Void, but Death Anxiety is a dud. no need to plop that on something interesting.
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_ 🧠 _
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,658
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Re: Filling the Void [Re: sudly]
#23968964 - 12/30/16 07:21 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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"There seems to be something phony about every attempt to define myself, to be totally honest. The trouble is that I can't see the back, much less the inside, of my head. I can't be honest because I don't fully know what I am. Consciousness peers out from a center which it cannot see—and that is the root of the matter. Life seems to resolve itself down to a tiny germ or nipple of sensitivity. I call it the Eenie-Weenie—a squiggling little nucleus that is trying to make love to itself and can never quite get there. The whole fabulous complexity of vegetable and animal life, as of human civilization, is just a colossal elaboration of the Eenie-Weenie trying to make the Eenie-Weenie. I am in love with myself, but cannot seek myself without hiding myself. As I pursue my own tail, it runs away from me, Does the amoeba split itself in two in an attempt to solve this problem?" ~Alan Watts...
fucking hilarious and poetic illustration of the play of life
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
Edited by The Blind Ass (12/30/16 07:26 PM)
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Memories



Registered: 05/09/12
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Re: Filling the Void [Re: sudly]
#23968977 - 12/30/16 07:27 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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I agree with both of you.
I have definitely found some worthwhile personal meaning and fulfillment with certain endeavors.
That being said, the emptiness and dissatisfaction always seems just below the surface, at least for me personally.
I've come to think that belief in and a "relationship" with a perceived higher power is the most effective way of combating the Ennui and Angst that so many seem to share.
At some of my darkest points i would even try to convince myself that there was some type of overarching, benevolent force which drove the universe and interactions comprising it, as this sort of belief seemed to be truly effective for helping so many come to terms with the many horrible truths of existence.
Alas, it seems impossible for me to truly embrace such thinking.
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Tmethyl
Smear in the shale


Registered: 07/16/12
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Re: Filling the Void [Re: Memories]
#23968989 - 12/30/16 07:31 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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I know them feels.
We can spend our entire life like this, just going back and fourth between these feelings of satisfaction and dissatisfaction, meaning and meaninglessness.
That void though. Have you ever tried loving it? I think running away from it, ignoring it, or trying to cover it up just make it worse. I think we must engage it, face it, feel it. Give it a chance to show you why it's there. One may find that it was not a monster, but a friend.
Maybe it's time to identify consciousness, and separate it from the mind. Consciousness is empty and void, but it's always present. In the same way that a blank canvas holds the entire painting, consciousness holds the entire Universe. It can only hold the entire universe of sounds, and colors and identities, because it is colorless, silent, and nobody.
I understand if this just seems silly to you, the person, the identity.  Searching for consciousness is like a character in a movie searching for the screen. You are already that. 
"I".
-------------------- ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Re: Filling the Void [Re: Memories]
#23968991 - 12/30/16 07:34 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Memories said: It's been a while since I've posted here. Hope some familiar faces will be able to chime in.
How many of you relate to feeling a sort of ever present void inside of you, typically stemming from a general dissatisfaction with life and the lack of any sort of concrete meaning or purpose on how, or even why, one should continue living?
I was sober for over a year, and i was able to find some relatively effective distractions in the forms of art, exercise, and meaningful social interaction, but even with these tools, there always seems to be that emptiness inside of me.
Lately i feel like i've been coming back to the idea of death anxiety being the primary human motivator, and the diverse actions we engage in primarily serving the purpose of distracting us from the ultimate fate we will all share.
I don't think there is a 'one size fits all answer' so I have only your own words to work with quote: "some relatively effective distractions"
so I would wonder: Why not stop distracting yourself? and face the unpleasantness you presumably have been avoiding
what happens after that would seem to be unknown
traditionally ceasing to distract oneself is called "meditation" but that is perhaps irrelevant
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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simple logic would also seem to indicate that
thinking that one needs meaning,
is of course to perceive oneself,
as lacking something
and therefore also
as weak
or
as the saying goes:
"There is no way to happiness,
happiness is the way."
many other words may be substituted for 'happiness'
the principle remains the same
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Memories



Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 10,484
Loc: Suwannee River
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
Memories said: ... How many of you relate to feeling a sort of ever present void inside of you, typically stemming from a general dissatisfaction with life and the lack of any sort of concrete meaning or purpose on how, or even why, one should continue living? ...
welcome back Memories how did you get from that teaser about emptiness to the notion of death anxiety.
I thought you would make a more elaborate description about the Void, and maybe Filling the Void, but Death Anxiety is a dud. no need to plop that on something interesting.
Indeed, DA has been beaten to death on this sub-forum.
But i really hadn't thought about Death Anxiety for years, and came to view it as a facet of human experience, but less encompassing than i had once thought.
This tangent of thought leading to my re-examining DA to be potentially as encompassing as i had once thought is likely brought on by my experiences with family over the holidays.
Each year, it seems as if there is more pain in the hearts of my loved ones as death becomes more real to them. It becomes harder for them to write it off as some distant event, not worthy of consideration.
My father, estranged to me through my childhood and early adult years, seems to be having increasing difficulty finding fulfillment through the building of wealth and symbols of success. I've noticed him start shifting towards a focus on attempting to build relationships with the creatures he brought into this world.
As this happens, i see him moving away from the desire for his children to follow the path of financial success. He recognizes his failure to create personal fulfillment, and seems to desire to help his children succeed where he has failed.
It all comes back to the void inside of us. He dedicated his life to a route he thought might make him finally feel whole, and now that it hasn't worked, is looking for fulfillment in attempting to help the only humans he's ever loved find fulfillment of their own.
Alas, i often come back to thinking it is never truly possible.
The best we can hope to do is find the best distraction for us personally.
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laughingdog
Stranger

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Re: Filling the Void [Re: Memories]
#23969071 - 12/30/16 07:56 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Memories said:
The best we can hope to do is find the best distraction for us personally.
with that attitude you will remain stuck
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Tmethyl
Smear in the shale


Registered: 07/16/12
Posts: 16,431
Loc: Florida
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
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Quote:
laughingdog said:
Quote:
Memories said:
The best we can hope to do is find the best distraction for us personally.
with that attitude you will remain stuck
Yes. 
What you are looking for, is where you are looking from.
-------------------- ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Duncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum



Registered: 10/08/12
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Re: Filling the Void [Re: Tmethyl]
#23969101 - 12/30/16 08:07 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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The void is unconscious yearning for the source - for 'God'.
We dont feel complete as beings because we are part of a split.
The spirit is out on its work experience, refining itself out in the challenges of the great jungle to be better upon its return,
The best thing we can do is try to and get as close to to the source as possible.
This is achievement by moral living, liking, then loving the self and others and the mind loses its boundaries.
Show sinners their TV dinners and urge them to try caviar.
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deff
just love everyone



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Re: Filling the Void [Re: Memories]
#23969105 - 12/30/16 08:09 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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maybe the reason you see a void within you is more to do with how you're looking than with what's there - we have different instruments to examine life and our being with. the rational mind has a productive range of uses, but is also terrible at other endeavours, such as this one. in my experience, rather than looking for a conceptual model as an answer, it is more fruitful to feel into a feeling of who we are - and what I tend to discover is at the core there is (of course not totally describable with words) a kind of loving presence.
but when we stay in the mind, the mind is blind to this and will convince us there is nothing - and so it takes diving into the heart, into feeling-consciousness, to connect with this. and what also can help is exercising self-love to ourselves, which seems to relax and allow the heart to open more, and we can realize we are love and we are what we seek
--------------------
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
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Re: Filling the Void [Re: Memories]
#23969106 - 12/30/16 08:10 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Memories said: I agree with both of you.
I have definitely found some worthwhile personal meaning and fulfillment with certain endeavors.
That being said, the emptiness and dissatisfaction always seems just below the surface, at least for me personally.
I've come to think that belief in and a "relationship" with a perceived higher power is the most effective way of combating the Ennui and Angst that so many seem to share.
At some of my darkest points i would even try to convince myself that there was some type of overarching, benevolent force which drove the universe and interactions comprising it, as this sort of belief seemed to be truly effective for helping so many come to terms with the many horrible truths of existence.
Alas, it seems impossible for me to truly embrace such thinking.
For me Erwin Schrodinger's concept of negative entropy seems to fill the void that karma would take for most.
Quote:
The concept and phrase "negative entropy" was introduced by Erwin Schrödinger in his 1944 popular-science book What is Life? Later, Léon Brillouin shortened the phrase to negentropy, to express it in a more "positive" way: a living system imports negentropy and stores it
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Tmethyl
Smear in the shale


Registered: 07/16/12
Posts: 16,431
Loc: Florida
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
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Quote:
Duncan Rowhl said: The best thing we can do is try to and get as close to to the source as possible
If I were to ask you to stand up and take a step toward yourself, what would you do? To imply that there is any distance between yourself and the source implies that you exist independently of the source.
You are already that. The operation of consciousness has created the ‘apparition’ called ‘me’. Now 'me' wants to be close to the source. 'Me' is also the source, like a wave is also the ocean.
-------------------- ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Duncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum



Registered: 10/08/12
Posts: 2,659
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Re: Filling the Void [Re: Tmethyl]
#23969166 - 12/30/16 08:33 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Tmethyl said:
Quote:
Duncan Rowhl said: The best thing we can do is try to and get as close to to the source as possible
If I were to ask you to stand up and take a step toward yourself, what would you do? To imply that there is any distance between yourself and the source implies that you exist independently of the source.
You are already that. The operation of consciousness has created the ‘apparition’ called ‘me’. Now 'me' wants to be close to the source. 'Me' is also the source, like a wave is also the ocean.
You regard 'close' as reference to distance rather than metaphor.
I concur; only one who doesn't comprehend regards God as a physical, far distant, separate entity.
The source is non-local. It always there, always within, always owned, always so. It is.
The 'closeness' is achieved by reducing oneself back to it, peeling away dependency and desire of the outward projection.
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Tmethyl
Smear in the shale


Registered: 07/16/12
Posts: 16,431
Loc: Florida
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
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Well said.
-------------------- ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Memories



Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 10,484
Loc: Suwannee River
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
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Quote:
laughingdog said:
Quote:
Memories said:
The best we can hope to do is find the best distraction for us personally.
with that attitude you will remain stuck
You're right.
Fixating on this negative outlook only hinders my ability to successfully distract myself and find meaning.
The most fulfillment i've found comes when i let go of this habit of dissociating from life to analyze the distasteful perceptions of things, and instead, I allow myself to enter the flow. It is really an application of meditation to the proceedings of each day.
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,658
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Re: Filling the Void [Re: Memories]
#23969274 - 12/30/16 09:14 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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beware of snow
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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Memories



Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 10,484
Loc: Suwannee River
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
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Re: Filling the Void [Re: deff] 1
#23969331 - 12/30/16 09:35 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deff said: maybe the reason you see a void within you is more to do with how you're looking than with what's there - we have different instruments to examine life and our being with. the rational mind has a productive range of uses, but is also terrible at other endeavours, such as this one. in my experience, rather than looking for a conceptual model as an answer, it is more fruitful to feel into a feeling of who we are - and what I tend to discover is at the core there is (of course not totally describable with words) a kind of loving presence.
but when we stay in the mind, the mind is blind to this and will convince us there is nothing - and so it takes diving into the heart, into feeling-consciousness, to connect with this. and what also can help is exercising self-love to ourselves, which seems to relax and allow the heart to open more, and we can realize we are love and we are what we seek 
You make great points.
It even fits with my views on reality quite well. If everything is just the proceedings of particles interacting with each other, and there is no objective hierarchy for said interactions of particles, why should i constantly place my logic on such a pedestal?
There is no reason why i should prioritize areas of thinking and feeling above others when the result is increased feelings of Angst and Ennui.
Subjectively, giving precedence to feelings that allow me to feel a part of something and less of a shell are more worthy of exploration if my goal is increased peace and contentment.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Re: Filling the Void [Re: Memories]
#23969933 - 12/31/16 05:09 AM (7 years, 30 days ago) |
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what do you mean by "feelings"? is this to include body sensations as well as pleasurable, painful, and neutral feelings, or is it about pain and pleasure only and not the endless sensorium?
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
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zzripz
Stranger


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Re: Filling the Void [Re: Memories]
#23969946 - 12/31/16 05:27 AM (7 years, 30 days ago) |
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we have all been abused since being little. Many people do not even 'know', and won't accept this. A reason for that is that there is a suppression of the KNOWLEDGE of it.
A good example is what happened to the original inhabitants of Turtle island (Native Americans). Insane invaders, already themselves abused and dehumanized, came into their lands, and then take AWAY/force away their languages (which are deeply connected with the land), and their land and customs and names, take their children away and force them into the schools (like we were, and most of the children are), and then what we we see happen as a result? Acoholism, drug addiction, obesity, total loss, void, meaninglessness,despair. the generations that come and grow up in this are made to forget the original causes OF it. And then comes the 'experts' telling them they are 'mentally ill' when they manfest psychological disturbance and/or spontaneous visions etc--behaviours deemed not acceptable by the occupying oppressive force WHICH IS STILL HERE!
Looking at what happened/is happening to Indigenous peoples gives us a BIG clue about our OWN sense and states of meaninglessness, crime, addictions, 'mental illness' etc, and the research into this is a big part of the healing OF it, because you are becoming aware of the void:
Quote:
How the US Mental Health System Makes Natives Sick and Suicidal
'The intrusion of a new language upon a people can build bridges, tear them down, or serve an oppressive agenda. It can do all three at once. In the last 40 years, certain English words and phrases have become more acceptable to indigenous scholars, thought leaders, and elders for describing shared Native experiences. They include genocide, cultural destruction, colonization, forced assimilation, loss of language, boarding school, termination, historical trauma and more general terms, such as racism, poverty, life expectancy, and educational barriers. There are many more.
One might expect such words to be common within the mental health system in Indian Country. Yet the major funder and provider of Native mental health, the Indian Health Service (IHS), doesn’t seem to speak this language.
For example, the agency’s behavioral health manual mentions psychiatrist and psychiatric 23 times, therapy 18 times, pharmacotherapy, medication, drugs, and prescription 16 times, and the word treatment, a whopping 89 times. But it only uses the word violence once, and you won’t find a single mention of genocide, cultural destruction, colonization, historical trauma, etc.—nor even racism, poverty, life expectancy or educational barriers.
Since those days, affixing the depression label to Native experience has become big business. IHS depends a great deal upon this activity—follow-up “medication management” encounters allow the agency to pull considerable extra revenue from Medicaid. One part of the federal government supplements funding for the other. That’s one reason it might be in the best interest of IHS to diagnose and treat depression, rather than acknowledge the emotional and behavioral difficulties resulting from chronic, intergenerational oppression.
...What’s truly remarkable is that this is not the first time the mental health movement in Indian Country has helped to destroy Native people. Today’s making of a Mentally Ill Indian to “treat” is just a variation on an old idea, a fitting example of George Santayana’s overused adage: “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” The Native mental health system has been a tool of cultural genocide for over 175 years—seven generations. Long before there was this Mentally Ill Indian to treat, this movement was busy creating and perpetuating the Crazy Indian, the Dumb Indian, and the Drunken Indian.
We need to expose what has been made invisible and forgotten. We need to revisit the displaced and poverty-stricken ancestors subjected to Indian Lunacy Determinations and sent away from their homes and families. We need to learn more about the Hiawatha Asylum for Insane Indians, where people were kept shackled until the cuffs of their chains meshed with their skin.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Quote:
Duncan Rowhl said: The void is unconscious yearning for the source - for 'God'.
We dont feel complete as beings because we are part of a split.
The spirit is out on its work experience, refining itself out in the challenges of the great jungle to be better upon its return,
The best thing we can do is try to and get as close to to the source as possible.
This is achievement by moral living, liking, then loving the self and others and the mind loses its boundaries.
Show sinners their TV dinners and urge them to try caviar. 
TV Dinners fill the void.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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Satya


Registered: 11/11/15
Posts: 175
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Re: Filling the Void [Re: Memories]
#23970022 - 12/31/16 06:29 AM (7 years, 30 days ago) |
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I find that attachments can influence how one experiences this emptiness.
We often come from the view that temporary things were somehow going to be fulfilling and satisfying, so seeing things are empty and dissatisfying can be difficult to face at first. If our attitude is to resist impermanence and remain attached to things that come and go, it can bring suffering. If embraced as a fundamental truth of all things, it can be liberating... as how can temporary things ever bring lasting peace?
Seeing that things are unsatisfactory as they don't last can actually help to appreciate things while they do last, as there's no longer this grasping trying to derive happiness from them. It allows some space to see that happiness doesn't necessarily come from things themselves - it's what we imbue them with, our attitude and desires towards things.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Re: Filling the Void [Re: Satya]
#23970151 - 12/31/16 08:24 AM (7 years, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
What Satya said, substituting and eliminating a few words: I find that mental associations influence how one experiences this emptiness.
We often come from the view that temporary things were somehow going to be fulfilling and satisfying, so seeing things are empty and dissatisfying can be difficult to face at first. If our attitude is inflexible, it can bring suffering. If change is embraced as a fundamental truth of all things, it can be liberating...
Seeing that things are unsatisfactory as they don't fulfill needs can actually help to appreciate things as they are. It allows some space to see that happiness doesn't necessarily come from things themselves - it's what we imbue them with, our attitude towards things.
this now hangs together for me and the meaning is simpler, less black and white, more honest.
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
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Re: Filling the Void [Re: Memories]
#23974318 - 01/01/17 09:48 PM (7 years, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
Memories said: It's been a while since I've posted here. Hope some familiar faces will be able to chime in.
How many of you relate to feeling a sort of ever present void inside of you, typically stemming from a general dissatisfaction with life and the lack of any sort of concrete meaning or purpose on how, or even why, one should continue living?
I was sober for over a year, and i was able to find some relatively effective distractions in the forms of art, exercise, and meaningful social interaction, but even with these tools, there always seems to be that emptiness inside of me.
Lately i feel like i've been coming back to the idea of death anxiety being the primary human motivator, and the diverse actions we engage in primarily serving the purpose of distracting us from the ultimate fate we will all share.
I've been toying with the idea of writing a self help book for people like you. The working title is "This Is Not A Self Help Book: Why Life Is Unfulfilling And Why Its Not Your Fault"
The essential thrust of the book would be that over the last 500 years or so life has become increasingly easier materially due to the advance of science and rationality which ironically has resulted in the dissipation of communal systems of redemption designed to shelter us from the pain of death anxiety.
life used to be much harder, but this did not really worry people because this life was just a precursor to eternal happiness and the entire community of the faithful were redeemed because of this. Modern life although materially, morally and in terms of health is much better off, but we are in a spiritual decline and the malaise you feel is a result of this.
So, the main thing you should take away from this post is its not your fault, your just a victim of history like the rest of us.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: Filling the Void [Re: Memories]
#23974327 - 01/01/17 09:52 PM (7 years, 29 days ago) |
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I made a thread pretty similar to this a while ago that you might like
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23735160
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: Filling the Void [Re: Memories] 1
#23974369 - 01/01/17 10:02 PM (7 years, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
Memories said:
Quote:
laughingdog said:
Quote:
Memories said:
The best we can hope to do is find the best distraction for us personally.
with that attitude you will remain stuck
You're right.
Fixating on this negative outlook only hinders my ability to successfully distract myself and find meaning.
The most fulfillment i've found comes when i let go of this habit of dissociating from life to analyze the distasteful perceptions of things, and instead, I allow myself to enter the flow. It is really an application of meditation to the proceedings of each day.
Meditation (like hedonism used to be) is the new denial of death. it is used in modern circles as a means to distract oneself from the inevitable, which is fine if that's what you want to do. But, I wouldn't say its much different from playing video games, sex or any other kind of distraction. However, once this is fully realised it seems to take the zing out of the experience. I think there is a secret hope in the meditator that by reaching enlightenment they will make a connection with a realm beyond death and hence never die.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Quote:
meditation is the "new" denial of death
- no way jose.
immersing in the moment is the antithesis of running away, the opposite of denial.
if it starts to become death denial, then you are witnessing an internal dialog, just take note and continue the practice.
(hold off writing that book for a few years)
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
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Duncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum



Registered: 10/08/12
Posts: 2,659
Loc: UK
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
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Quote:
Meditation (like hedonism used to be) is the new denial of death. it is used in modern circles as a means to distract oneself from the inevitable, which is fine if that's what you want to do. But, I wouldn't say its much different from playing video games, sex or any other kind of distraction.
It's as close to 'death' as we can possibly achieve as well, non-toxicated beings. It adheres to complete and total acceptance of death in preparing oneself to be spiritually matured and attuned.
It is not in any way the same as video games which are a death distraction and in many cases, a will of alternative reality. Video games can be absolutely toxic to Spirit.
Sex is for the purpose of reproduction which can be abused to the point of vice which is often a repercussion of a spirit that is out of alignment. Craving poor quality foods comes part and parcel as a similar vice.
You're likely to find that your destructive ego is restraining you from benefits which will challenge its own existence or you've been guided towards a form of meditation by the destructive ego which is presenting a tainted, untrue version.
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liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
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Quote:
Duncan Rowhl said:
Quote:
Meditation (like hedonism used to be) is the new denial of death. it is used in modern circles as a means to distract oneself from the inevitable, which is fine if that's what you want to do. But, I wouldn't say its much different from playing video games, sex or any other kind of distraction.
It's as close to 'death' as we can possibly achieve as well, non-toxicated beings.
And how do you know this?
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
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Duncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum



Registered: 10/08/12
Posts: 2,659
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Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
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Quote:
liquidlounge said:
Quote:
Duncan Rowhl said:
Quote:
Meditation (like hedonism used to be) is the new denial of death. it is used in modern circles as a means to distract oneself from the inevitable, which is fine if that's what you want to do. But, I wouldn't say its much different from playing video games, sex or any other kind of distraction.
It's as close to 'death' as we can possibly achieve as well, non-toxicated beings.
And how do you know this?
As far as I assume to know...
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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meditation is not close to death. it is hyper alive but calm as fuck. this is not like death.
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
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Duncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum



Registered: 10/08/12
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: meditation is not close to death. it is hyper alive but calm as fuck. this is not like death.
The one who meditates decides and swearing in a sentence containing 'calm' is not calm.
We can only question then if you actually meditate.
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liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
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Quote:
Duncan Rowhl said:
Quote:
liquidlounge said:
Quote:
Duncan Rowhl said:
Quote:
Meditation (like hedonism used to be) is the new denial of death. it is used in modern circles as a means to distract oneself from the inevitable, which is fine if that's what you want to do. But, I wouldn't say its much different from playing video games, sex or any other kind of distraction.
It's as close to 'death' as we can possibly achieve as well, non-toxicated beings.
And how do you know this?
As far as I assume to know...
Fair enough, elaborate why it's somehow close to death.
Because I think it's a best guess.
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
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Duncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum



Registered: 10/08/12
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^ We're still in wait of your contribution, so let us know why you don't believe it is so (if this is indeed the case), based upon your guess.
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liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
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Don't be silly, Duncan. You put forward the claim, and so you should really go first.
But I think it's a best guess as you have most likely no clue what death is, at all.
Unless you prove me wrong of course.
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
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Duncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum



Registered: 10/08/12
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liquidlounge said: Don't be silly, Duncan. You put forward the claim, and so you should really go first.
But I think it's a best guess as you have most likely no clue what death is, at all.
Unless you prove me wrong of course.
My meditation is my comfort, my words my contribution, proving you wrong - not my onus.
A civil exchange does not stem from simply naysaying.
Bidding you a milder night.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Quote:
Duncan Rowhl said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said: meditation is not close to death. it is hyper alive but calm as fuck. this is not like death.
The one who meditates decides and swearing in a sentence containing 'calm' is not calm.
We can only question then if you actually meditate. 
who is 'we'? and why would 'we' question; is it because I am not part of your tribe? I an allowed to use the word 'fuck' when I mean things and want to shake things up a bit.
--------------------
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Duncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum



Registered: 10/08/12
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
Duncan Rowhl said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said: meditation is not close to death. it is hyper alive but calm as fuck. this is not like death.
The one who meditates decides and swearing in a sentence containing 'calm' is not calm.
We can only question then if you actually meditate. 
who is 'we'? and why would 'we' question; is it because I am not part of your tribe? I an allowed to use the word 'fuck' when I mean things and want to shake things up a bit.
The plural: 'We' would encompass anyone who reads and concludes to pose the same question.
The focus was on you presenting the state of calm as an oxymoron alongside swearing, which, in turn, suggested your claim to the contrary. Your posts, as someone who claims to meditate, do not in any way portray calm, rather angered in a juvenile manner to a considerable and unnecessary degree.
Calm shaken is not calm. Q.E.D.
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liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
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Quote:
Duncan Rowhl said:
Quote:
liquidlounge said: Don't be silly, Duncan. You put forward the claim, and so you should really go first.
But I think it's a best guess as you have most likely no clue what death is, at all.
Unless you prove me wrong of course.
My meditation is my comfort, my words my contribution, proving you wrong - not my onus.
A civil exchange does not stem from simply naysaying.
Bidding you a milder night. 
You proved nothing. Why am I not surprised. 
I am not a part of your 'we', yet I am human like yourself, AFAIK. One of us is rationale, the other bordering delusional.
Quote:
Duncan Rowhl said: It's as close to 'death' as we can possibly achieve as well, non-toxicated beings.
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
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Duncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum



Registered: 10/08/12
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I informed you that it wasn't my aim to prove you wrong.
That's maybe why you aren't surprised.
The human who is rational converses sensibly, lest they tire emotionally. Q.E.D.
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liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
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Yet you come up with a claim and include me (one would assume) in your claim but you're not able to back it up. Weak sauce, Duncan.
This is not the first time I've caught you trying to speak for me either.
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
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Duncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum



Registered: 10/08/12
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liquidlounge said: Yet you come up with a claim and include me (one would assume) in your claim but you're not able to back it up. Weak sauce, Duncan.
This is not the first time I've caught you trying to speak for me either. 
The 'We' I spoke of referred to people who may hypothetically agree with the question I posed.
Unfortunately, I have no idea why you assumed and factored in yourself.
It is best to calm and comprehend before unleashing, unnecessary emotion.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
meditation is the "new" denial of death
- no way jose.
immersing in the moment is the antithesis of running away, the opposite of denial.
if it starts to become death denial, then you are witnessing an internal dialog, just take note and continue the practice.
(hold off writing that book for a few years)
Through immersion in the present moment we forget the past, stop worrying about the future and for many see through to the illusory nature of the self, correct?
In order to know death we must have a sense of the unique properties of our individual self and must have knowledge of that self existing in time, and time of course will eat us alive.
Meditation denies, destroys, mystifies, whatever you want to call it; the self existing in time hence it can act as a denial of finitude.
There is also the issue of nirvana or enlightenment which for many is really just oriental heaven.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
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Quote:
Duncan Rowhl said:[/b
You're likely to find that your destructive ego is restraining you from benefits which will challenge its own existence or you've been guided towards a form of meditation by the destructive ego which is presenting a tainted, untrue version.
Methods that induce destruction of the ego like those practiced in meditation and by psychonuaghts is often a psychological defence mechanism because having an ego is hard. I've seen this a number of times in people who are severely mentally ill and go into a catatonic state to avoid reality.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
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Quote:
Duncan Rowhl said:
Quote:
liquidlounge said: Yet you come up with a claim and include me (one would assume) in your claim but you're not able to back it up. Weak sauce, Duncan.
This is not the first time I've caught you trying to speak for me either. 
The 'We' I spoke of referred to people who may hypothetically agree with the question I posed.
Unfortunately, I have no idea why you assumed and factored in yourself.
Haha, I could have done the same thing as you do now in the other thread. Heck, I could have said I demonstrated how to act best only for you people to understand it. But no I don't. And neither do I think you're being sincere with me. I guess, I'll never know.
Because I am a non-toxicated being:
Quote:
Duncan Rowhl said: It's as close to 'death' as we can possibly achieve as well, non-toxicated beings.
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
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Duncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum



Registered: 10/08/12
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Quote:
I guess, I'll never know.
It's all as far as we assume to know.
That's why we keep it calm and civil.
Edited by Duncan Rowhl (01/02/17 08:15 PM)
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Duncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum



Registered: 10/08/12
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Quote:
blingbling said:
Quote:
Duncan Rowhl said:
You're likely to find that your destructive ego is restraining you from benefits which will challenge its own existence or you've been guided towards a form of meditation by the destructive ego which is presenting a tainted, untrue version.
Methods that induce destruction of the ego like those practiced in meditation and by psychonuaghts is often a psychological defence mechanism because having an ego is hard. I've seen this a number of times in people who are severely mentally ill and go into a catatonic state to avoid reality.
It certainly can't be denied as a viable point. 
Granted, People who are invested in the material can claim that those 'psychonaughts' are fighting for an escape.
On a personal level, are you a user of mushrooms? If so, is your agenda to purely look deeper into this physical existence which you regard as the only?
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
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Quote:
Duncan Rowhl said:
Quote:
blingbling said:
Quote:
Duncan Rowhl said:
You're likely to find that your destructive ego is restraining you from benefits which will challenge its own existence or you've been guided towards a form of meditation by the destructive ego which is presenting a tainted, untrue version.
Methods that induce destruction of the ego like those practiced in meditation and by psychonuaghts is often a psychological defence mechanism because having an ego is hard. I've seen this a number of times in people who are severely mentally ill and go into a catatonic state to avoid reality.
It certainly can't be denied as a viable point. 
Granted, People who are invested in the material can claim that those people are fighting for an escape.
On a personal level, are you a user of mushrooms? If so, is your agenda to purely look deeper into this physical existence which you regard as the only?
I have used mushrooms, but don't intend to do them for a while. I might take the shroom up again when my kids leave home, which will be many years away. I often fantasise about retiring and going up into the hills every couple of weeks, camping in the rainforest, reading and doing shrooms. But that will be a while off.
I don't really know what I was looking for when I did shrooms. I guess I'm just a seeker like everyone seems to be here.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
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Quote:
Duncan Rowhl said:
Quote:
I guess, I'll never know.
It's all as far as we assume to know.
That's why we keep it calm and civil.
You keep talking about being calm, yet you seem to stir lots of emotions in other people.
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
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Duncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum



Registered: 10/08/12
Posts: 2,659
Loc: UK
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Quote:
liquidlounge said:
Quote:
Duncan Rowhl said:
Quote:
I guess, I'll never know.
It's all as far as we assume to know.
That's why we keep it calm and civil.
You keep talking about being calm, yet you seem to stir lots of emotions in other people.
We stir emotions in ourselves.
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liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
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Fuck yes! Say that to the rape victim who is angry and anxious.
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
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Duncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum



Registered: 10/08/12
Posts: 2,659
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Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
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Quote:
blingbling said:
Quote:
Duncan Rowhl said:
Quote:
blingbling said:
Quote:
Duncan Rowhl said:
You're likely to find that your destructive ego is restraining you from benefits which will challenge its own existence or you've been guided towards a form of meditation by the destructive ego which is presenting a tainted, untrue version.
Methods that induce destruction of the ego like those practiced in meditation and by psychonuaghts is often a psychological defence mechanism because having an ego is hard. I've seen this a number of times in people who are severely mentally ill and go into a catatonic state to avoid reality.
It certainly can't be denied as a viable point. 
Granted, People who are invested in the material can claim that those people are fighting for an escape.
On a personal level, are you a user of mushrooms? If so, is your agenda to purely look deeper into this physical existence which you regard as the only?
I have used mushrooms, but don't intend to do them for a while. I might take the shroom up again when my kids leave home, which will be many years away. I often fantasise about retiring and going up into the hills every couple of weeks, camping in the rainforest, reading and doing shrooms. But that will be a while off.
I don't really know what I was looking for when I did shrooms. I guess I'm just a seeker like everyone seems to be here.
I think the experience is shaped initially by our personality but the experiences are enough to reshape to quite an extent. I don't think the personality loses its qualities, but rather strips away the unnecessary traits to a point where we become more useful as a whole.
A large majority of the 'spiritual' I feel is felt as a residual 'glow' rather than visual experiences, though I've had a considerable amount of profound ones which have left me awestruck.
The rainforest sound enchanting. I hope it serves you well when the time comes.
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Duncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum



Registered: 10/08/12
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Quote:
liquidlounge said: Fuck yes! Say that to the rape victim who is angry and anxious.
It would be healthy for you to cease now.
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liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
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You're a provocateur.
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
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Duncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum



Registered: 10/08/12
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Quote:
liquidlounge said: You're a provocateur.
Your persisting torment is but a product of your own hands.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Duncan; as polite as your words may be, you do not represent we, as we know it. and I do know a lot about meditation, and thought of other kinds as well. and it has nothing to do with death, nirvana, or any other "mara" unless you introduce it, usually nothing is added.
--------------------
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
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I used to do yoga, that's pretty good. I also did my own animal yoga with poses that each represent a different animal.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Duncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum



Registered: 10/08/12
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: Duncan; as polite as your words may be, you do not represent we, as we know it. and I do know a lot about meditation, and thought of other kinds as well. and it has nothing to do with death, nirvana, or any other "mara" unless you introduce it, usually nothing is added.
'We' was assigned to others who may too question your abilities in meditation when you delivered an expression of it in an aggressive manner, which stood as an oxymoron.
The person who experiences an experience decides what it means to them and many people do indeed regard metaphysical meditation to be akin to the 'death' experience by default, but your own perspective is appreciated.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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I guess "seek and ye shall find" still applies, If you seek death, you will find it.
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_ 🧠 _
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
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-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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beforethedawn
Registered: 06/19/16
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Re: Filling the Void [Re: sudly]
#23978061 - 01/03/17 06:46 AM (7 years, 27 days ago) |
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Realise the Self.
The world is internal, the world is your being.
If your being is love, the world is love, and loves you, with its music, its landscapes, its people, its food, its sensations, etc.
Self-realisation = paradise.
-------------------- Hostile humankind Can't you see you're fucking blind?
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beforethedawn
Registered: 06/19/16
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Stop reacting to what is in front of you.
It is what is inside you, simultaneously, as being what is in front of you.
Realise the Self and the music = That, with all the mystery of Love.
"The astrolabe of the mysteries of God is Love."
-------------------- Hostile humankind Can't you see you're fucking blind?
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Duncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum



Registered: 10/08/12
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: I guess "seek and ye shall find" still applies, If you seek death, you will find it.
First establishing what 'death' is to oneself.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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I think you are using 'one', and 'we', in order to appear authoritative.
I question the sanity in your obsession with death and any attempt you may have to convince others in the wisdom of your death obsession.
"the veil" of death has been used as a disguise for much malarkey, and chicanery, from seances to hundreds of movies about "the living dead" - zombies - and Mexican social engineering in the "day of the dead" it harks back to ignorant religious practices and sacrifices, and to childhood fears of "the wolf eating you up if you don't go to sleep right now".
People are easily susceptible to this, and when erudite members entertain ideas they become more attractive to less articulate members.
Because of this impact on others I recommend you find a better interest than death.
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
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Duncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum



Registered: 10/08/12
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: I think you are using 'one', and 'we', in order to appear authoritative.
I question the sanity in your obsession with death and any attempt you may have to convince others in the wisdom of your death obsession.
"the veil" of death has been used as a disguise for much malarkey, and chicanery, from seances to hundreds of movies about "the living dead" - zombies - and Mexican social engineering in the "day of the dead" it harks back to ignorant religious practices and sacrifices, and to childhood fears of "the wolf eating you up if you don't go to sleep right now".
People are easily susceptible to this, and when erudite members entertain ideas they become more attractive to less articulate members.
Because of this impact on others I recommend you find a better interest than death.
You are expressing once again your aggression noted earlier.
'Death' to many means the start of something profoundly and positively metaphysical and so any deeply invested interests will be readily and widely shared.
'We' and 'us' are selfless terms which take into regard humanity as a joined collective. This is a pleasing revelation which comes about after centering oneself to become free from needless aggression.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Quote:
Duncan Rowhl said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said: I think you are using 'one', and 'we', in order to appear authoritative.
I question the sanity in your obsession with death and any attempt you may have to convince others in the wisdom of your death obsession.
"the veil" of death has been used as a disguise for much malarkey, and chicanery, from seances to hundreds of movies about "the living dead" - zombies - and Mexican social engineering in the "day of the dead" it harks back to ignorant religious practices and sacrifices, and to childhood fears of "the wolf eating you up if you don't go to sleep right now".
People are easily susceptible to this, and when erudite members entertain ideas they become more attractive to less articulate members.
Because of this impact on others I recommend you find a better interest than death.
You are expressing once again your aggression noted earlier.
'Death' to many means the start of something profoundly and positively metaphysical and so any deeply invested interests will be readily and widely shared.
'We' and 'us' are selfless terms which take into regard humanity as a joined collective. This is a pleasing revelation which comes about after centering oneself to become free from needless aggression.
Passive aggressive, much?
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Out of control, I think
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_ 🧠 _
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: Out of control, I think
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Lunar; I am legally deaf, I don't have the sound on with my computer and use close caption while watching netflix; so it just looks like some old hippies at any random concert - but I am sure it is a relevant you tube reference, maybe if you post a video you could snip in the important lyrics. I don't get half the jokes that roll around here due to not being hip to the sound.
--------------------
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liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
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Quote:
Duncan Rowhl said:
Quote:
liquidlounge said: You're a provocateur.
Your persisting torment is but a product of your own hands.
Everyone who disagrees with you is angry.
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
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Duncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum



Registered: 10/08/12
Posts: 2,659
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Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
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Post deleted by Duncan RowhlReason for deletion: Duplicate
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Duncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum



Registered: 10/08/12
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Quote:
liquidlounge said: Everyone who disagrees with you is angry.
You are but a burden to yourself if you choose to begin another day feeling angry.
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liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
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Quote:
Duncan Rowhl said:
Quote:
liquidlounge said:
Quote:
Duncan Rowhl said:
Quote:
liquidlounge said: You're a provocateur.
Your persisting torment is but a product of your own hands.
Everyone who disagrees with you is angry.
You are but a burden to yourself if you choose to begin another day feeling angry.
I don't feel angry today, but often times it's difficult not being angry when you see how this world and its life works out.
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
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Duncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum



Registered: 10/08/12
Posts: 2,659
Loc: UK
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
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Re: Filling the Void [Re: Memories]
#23978703 - 01/03/17 12:31 PM (7 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
Memories said: It's been a while since I've posted here. Hope some familiar faces will be able to chime in.
How many of you relate to feeling a sort of ever present void inside of you, typically stemming from a general dissatisfaction with life and the lack of any sort of concrete meaning or purpose on how, or even why, one should continue living?
I was sober for over a year, and i was able to find some relatively effective distractions in the forms of art, exercise, and meaningful social interaction, but even with these tools, there always seems to be that emptiness inside of me.
Lately i feel like i've been coming back to the idea of death anxiety being the primary human motivator, and the diverse actions we engage in primarily serving the purpose of distracting us from the ultimate fate we will all share.
The 'sweet spot' is achieving the point where there is no regret of the past and no anxiety (for future). You've already identified you have identified with death anxiety and so, this is clearly a major player in the offset of your psyche. That's the first hurdle to tackle.
Even someone 'living in the moment' without deeply entrenched philosophies regarding death, benefit significantly just by dedicating concern only to what they are doing in the present moment.
I've found that I can complete huge, valuable projects as a result of dedicating time to the moment to complete each piece of work, thinking about that task and that only, rather than what's next.
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Duncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum



Registered: 10/08/12
Posts: 2,659
Loc: UK
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
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Quote:
liquidlounge said: I don't feel angry today, but often times it's difficult not being angry when you see how this world and its life works out.
You can't keep projecting anger onto the world because you've been dealt some bad cards, lest the bad cards keep coming.
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Tmethyl
Smear in the shale


Registered: 07/16/12
Posts: 16,431
Loc: Florida
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
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The world is objects arising and falling in awareness. The awareness is not affected by the world, not affected by thoughts, not affected by suffering. Body and mind also arise as objects in awareness. The 'void' is also an object arising in awareness. It's not very spiritual or mystical, it is your experience right now. The most plain and obvious. You are only awareness, just like a movie is only screen. A modulation of imagery upon the blank colorless space of the screen. Awareness is just like that, empty and colorless. So empty and so colorless and so silent that all the world can play upon it.

The only way out, is in.
-------------------- ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Duncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum



Registered: 10/08/12
Posts: 2,659
Loc: UK
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
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Re: Filling the Void [Re: Tmethyl]
#23978724 - 01/03/17 12:40 PM (7 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
Tmethyl said: The only way out, is in.
A grand and true finishing line.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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the movie is not just the screen. the screen, however, is used as a scintillating reflective surface for projection of movies. (is this an example of anger? )
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liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
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Quote:
Duncan Rowhl said:
Quote:
liquidlounge said: I don't feel angry today, but often times it's difficult not being angry when you see how this world and its life works out.
You can't keep projecting anger onto the world because you've been dealt some bad cards, lest the bad cards keep coming.
Why?
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
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Duncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum



Registered: 10/08/12
Posts: 2,659
Loc: UK
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
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Quote:
liquidlounge said:
Quote:
Duncan Rowhl said:
Quote:
liquidlounge said: I don't feel angry today, but often times it's difficult not being angry when you see how this world and its life works out.
You can't keep projecting anger onto the world because you've been dealt some bad cards, lest the bad cards keep coming.
Why?
That's exactly how the world works....as far as I assume to know.
Test it for yourself.
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liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
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No, why should I not project my anger to the world, so that it gets one step closer to its annihilation.
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
Edited by liquidlounge (01/03/17 09:13 PM)
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Duncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum



Registered: 10/08/12
Posts: 2,659
Loc: UK
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
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Quote:
liquidlounge said: No, why should I not project my anger to the world, so that it gets one step closer to its annihilation.
Why would that be a goal?
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liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
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To end suffering.
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
Edited by liquidlounge (01/03/17 09:14 PM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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0hhh my!
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pineninja
Dream Weaver



Registered: 08/17/14
Posts: 12,468
Loc: South
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What are you trying to achieve by ending suffering?
-------------------- Just a fool on the hill.
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pineninja
Dream Weaver



Registered: 08/17/14
Posts: 12,468
Loc: South
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: Lunar; I am legally deaf, I don't have the sound on with my computer and use close caption while watching netflix; so it just looks like some old hippies at any random concert - but I am sure it is a relevant you tube reference, maybe if you post a video you could snip in the important lyrics. I don't get half the jokes that roll around here due to not being hip to the sound.
Some of my closest friends growing up were deaf. Unique perspectives an overview if you will. Also the ability to simply and concisely make your point due to sign. Pity you have none of these traits.
-------------------- Just a fool on the hill.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Re: Filling the Void [Re: pineninja] 1
#23979130 - 01/03/17 03:22 PM (7 years, 27 days ago) |
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give me a run on sentence and I'm going for a joy ride.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: Lunar; I am legally deaf, I don't have the sound on with my computer and use close caption while watching netflix; so it just looks like some old hippies at any random concert - but I am sure it is a relevant you tube reference, maybe if you post a video you could snip in the important lyrics. I don't get half the jokes that roll around here due to not being hip to the sound.
Oh son don't wade too deep
In Bitter Creek
Once I was young And so unsure Try any ill to find the cure An old man told me Tried to scold me Oh son Don't wade too deep In Bitter Creek
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
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-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Duncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum



Registered: 10/08/12
Posts: 2,659
Loc: UK
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
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Re: Filling the Void [Re: sudly]
#23979573 - 01/03/17 06:04 PM (7 years, 27 days ago) |
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Christ still forgives you for your immoral act.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
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-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Tmethyl
Smear in the shale


Registered: 07/16/12
Posts: 16,431
Loc: Florida
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
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Quote:
Duncan Rowhl said:
Quote:
Tmethyl said: The only way out, is in.
A grand and true finishing line. 
All persons will finish this way, whether they realize it now or die later on. It's so beautiful to live and know it, though.
-------------------- ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Duncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum



Registered: 10/08/12
Posts: 2,659
Loc: UK
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
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Re: Filling the Void [Re: Tmethyl]
#23982015 - 01/04/17 05:17 PM (7 years, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
Tmethyl said:
Quote:
Duncan Rowhl said:
Quote:
Tmethyl said: The only way out, is in.
A grand and true finishing line. 
All persons will finish this way, whether they realize it now or die later on. It's so beautiful to live and know it, though. 
Indeed.
It's the grail. Within the reach of anyone.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Filling the Void [Re: Memories]
#23982198 - 01/04/17 06:34 PM (7 years, 26 days ago) |
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A common theme I've noted over the years is that people who are suffering tend to equate a void and emptiness with their pain. I suggest that perception is wrong and that the void is actually not empty but desireful. It's an emotional buildup that needs to be released on a regular basis. Did your meaningful social interaction include carnal expression and intimate relationships? If not, perhaps the sobriety, the art, exercise and social interaction were more than their own reward, instead preparations to create a sense of comfort that could then be put to use. If you were to find yourself working to make someone else's experience as joyful as possible, you might not be so focused on your own lack of meaning. The stuff of life may be but tricks to keep us going, but they are damn good tricks. It is at least worth fully exploring rather than getting halfway and assuming where it all ends.
Quote:
Memories said: It's been a while since I've posted here. Hope some familiar faces will be able to chime in.
How many of you relate to feeling a sort of ever present void inside of you, typically stemming from a general dissatisfaction with life and the lack of any sort of concrete meaning or purpose on how, or even why, one should continue living?
I was sober for over a year, and i was able to find some relatively effective distractions in the forms of art, exercise, and meaningful social interaction, but even with these tools, there always seems to be that emptiness inside of me.
Lately i feel like i've been coming back to the idea of death anxiety being the primary human motivator, and the diverse actions we engage in primarily serving the purpose of distracting us from the ultimate fate we will all share.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Re: Filling the Void [Re: Rahz]
#23983168 - 01/05/17 06:14 AM (7 years, 25 days ago) |
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in that painful void, they find LACK of what they desire. in the glorious void, you find NOTHING that you would avoid.
--------------------
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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>>>>in that painful void, they find LACK of what they desire.
It's not that it's not there but that being unable to identify it, it's unknown and appears as darkness and emptiness.
But there is no such thing as an actual void. If there was we would be unable to be aware of it since we cannot perceive something that does not exist. Better to assume it is something and get to work finding out what it is.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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HagbardCeline
Student-Teacher-Student-Teacher



Registered: 05/10/03
Posts: 10,026
Loc: Overjoyed, at the bottom ...
Last seen: 19 days, 22 hours
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
welcome back Memories how did you get from that teaser about emptiness to the notion of death anxiety.
I thought you would make a more elaborate description about the Void, and maybe Filling the Void, but Death Anxiety is a dud. no need to plop that on something interesting.
Best response on this thread and what I was thinking as well.
-------------------- I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine
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Crazy_Horse
I’m Rick James, bitch!


Registered: 08/15/16
Posts: 13,284
Loc: Hampsterdam
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Quote:
Duncan Rowhl said: 'Death' to many means the start of something profoundly and positively metaphysical and so any deeply invested interests will be readily and widely shared.
--------------------
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Duncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum



Registered: 10/08/12
Posts: 2,659
Loc: UK
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
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^ Superb!
I've just got back into jazz and blues guitar this week .
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beforethedawn
Registered: 06/19/16
Posts: 1,859
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
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Re: Filling the Void [Re: Tmethyl]
#23984910 - 01/05/17 07:17 PM (7 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
Tmethyl said: The world is objects arising and falling in awareness. The awareness is not affected by the world, not affected by thoughts, not affected by suffering. Body and mind also arise as objects in awareness. The 'void' is also an object arising in awareness. It's not very spiritual or mystical, it is your experience right now. The most plain and obvious. You are only awareness, just like a movie is only screen. A modulation of imagery upon the blank colorless space of the screen. Awareness is just like that, empty and colorless. So empty and so colorless and so silent that all the world can play upon it.

The only way out, is in.
-------------------- Hostile humankind Can't you see you're fucking blind?
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: Filling the Void [Re: Rahz]
#23985040 - 01/05/17 08:10 PM (7 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: >>>>in that painful void, they find LACK of what they desire.
It's not that it's not there but that being unable to identify it, it's unknown and appears as darkness and emptiness.
But there is no such thing as an actual void. If there was we would be unable to be aware of it since we cannot perceive something that does not exist. Better to assume it is something and get to work finding out what it is.
I disagree. We know black holes exist because we can see stuff moving around them. Similarly, we can know that a void exists in the modern heart by its effects, increasing mental illness and anxiety, rampant consumerism, new ideologies and religions designed to fill this void etc.
I guess that you could say that the absence of something is in fact a positive assertion, that nothingness perceived by a conscious entity is something, but these are just semantic games. The real meat is in the psycho-historically grounded manifestations of the void.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Quote:
blingbling said:
Quote:
Rahz said: >>>>in that painful void, they find LACK of what they desire.
It's not that it's not there but that being unable to identify it, it's unknown and appears as darkness and emptiness.
But there is no such thing as an actual void. If there was we would be unable to be aware of it since we cannot perceive something that does not exist. Better to assume it is something and get to work finding out what it is.
I disagree. We know black holes exist because we can see stuff moving around them. Similarly, we can know that a void exists in the modern heart by its effects, increasing mental illness and anxiety, rampant consumerism, new ideologies and religions designed to fill this void etc.
I guess that you could say that the absence of something is in fact a positive assertion, that nothingness perceived by a conscious entity is something, but these are just semantic games. The real meat is in the psycho-historically grounded manifestations of the void.
I guess I'm just describing my experience. Perhaps semantics but the void is actually a fullness of emotion being held back and is generally painful. I agree with you characterizing it through psychological history. Dealing with such issues can be more painful all at once than not dealing with them and that gives rise to the idea of the void perhaps being a place of lesser pain, so I just mean to say that as opposed to seeing the void as sign that life has no worth and there's no point in trying that it's more of an illusion that can be navigated rather than believed.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: Filling the Void [Re: Rahz]
#23986800 - 01/06/17 03:14 PM (7 years, 24 days ago) |
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I think the diagnosis of a void in the modern heart acts like a medical diagnosis in the sense that it allows us to conseptualize a problem, but does nothing to treat said problem.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Bad diagnosis then.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Re: Filling the Void [Re: Rahz]
#23987043 - 01/06/17 04:41 PM (7 years, 24 days ago) |
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it's traditional
--------------------
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: Filling the Void [Re: Rahz]
#23987665 - 01/06/17 08:18 PM (7 years, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: Bad diagnosis then.
Doesn't necessarily mean its a bad diagnosis, it just means there are no effective treatments. Some kinds of cancers are like that
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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often a suitable treatment is rejected for poetic reasons
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Quote:
blingbling said: Doesn't necessarily mean its a bad diagnosis, it just means there are no effective treatments. Some kinds of cancers are like that 
I think some people have genetics that are inclined to make their life more difficult than others. Thoughts of traits being unsuited for the modern age occur, but it's just a perspective. While such differences can cause value judgement it's probably best to work with what one has. The challenge is always there regardless of whether happiness occurs and paths to resolution are not always straight. I'm not suggesting Memories shouldn't feel (think actually) there is a void, only that my disagreement may be useful if not now perhaps later.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: Filling the Void [Re: Rahz]
#23989607 - 01/07/17 01:45 PM (7 years, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
Quote:
blingbling said: Doesn't necessarily mean its a bad diagnosis, it just means there are no effective treatments. Some kinds of cancers are like that 
I think some people have genetics that are inclined to make their life more difficult than others. Thoughts of traits being unsuited for the modern age occur, but it's just a perspective. While such differences can cause value judgement it's probably best to work with what one has. The challenge is always there regardless of whether happiness occurs and paths to resolution are not always straight. I'm not suggesting Memories shouldn't feel (think actually) there is a void, only that my disagreement may be useful if not now perhaps later.
Are you saying that multiple perspectives are needed rather than just lumping every problem into "the void"? If so, I agree with that.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: often a suitable treatment is rejected for poetic reasons
I think you are a little hurt or frustrated because I do not give credence to your preferred method of treatment, namely meditation. If it works for you, do it. I just think the modern zeal for meditative practices needs to be tempered by alternative perspectives.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Quote:
blingbling said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said: often a suitable treatment is rejected for poetic reasons
I think you are a little hurt or frustrated because I do not give credence to your preferred method of treatment, namely meditation. If it works for you, do it. I just think the modern zeal for meditative practices needs to be tempered by alternative perspectives.
so off the mark
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Quote:
blingbling said:
Quote:
Rahz said:
Quote:
blingbling said: Doesn't necessarily mean its a bad diagnosis, it just means there are no effective treatments. Some kinds of cancers are like that 
I think some people have genetics that are inclined to make their life more difficult than others. Thoughts of traits being unsuited for the modern age occur, but it's just a perspective. While such differences can cause value judgment it's probably best to work with what one has. The challenge is always there regardless of whether happiness occurs and paths to resolution are not always straight. I'm not suggesting Memories shouldn't feel (think actually) there is a void, only that my disagreement may be useful if not now perhaps later.
Are you saying that multiple perspectives are needed rather than just lumping every problem into "the void"? If so, I agree with that.
Yes. A good perspective is probably based off more than one point of view. In psychological terms perhaps such feelings are best viewed as places to hibernate rather than the logical end. Life is not logical but genetic expression does have purpose. It's just hard to get at, often being intentionally deceptive. The void could be seen as a place to give up and die metaphorically speaking. If one doesn't die they can't be reincarnated. It is cyclic but each turn comes with more experience. In another recent thread I mentioned acceptance and in this case it would be good to accept things as they are, but not assume it as ultimate truth. This is the point I'm trying to get at. Such notions are not logical truths, but strategies which we often don't understand.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: Filling the Void [Re: Rahz]
#23990112 - 01/07/17 04:53 PM (7 years, 23 days ago) |
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Couldn't we accept the fact that life is full of unresolvable dilemmas and that the void inside the modern heart is one of these?
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
blingbling said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said: often a suitable treatment is rejected for poetic reasons
I think you are a little hurt or frustrated because I do not give credence to your preferred method of treatment, namely meditation. If it works for you, do it. I just think the modern zeal for meditative practices needs to be tempered by alternative perspectives.
so off the mark
Well it's either that or your just being fasicious which is both annoying and boring.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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what you are ignoring is that people fall in love with thoughts, and that love is poetry.
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Quote:
blingbling said: Couldn't we accept the fact that life is full of unresolvable dilemmas and that the void inside the modern heart is one of these?
I think people do well to accept things as they are. To view one's personal situation through the hypothetical notion that it will never change is presumptuous. Natural perhaps, but I don't think it's necessarily true and is part of the deceptive nature of our feelings.
What's not seen and not predictable is how the next cycle will evolve and differentiate itself.
That said, I think it's likely that certain genetic aspects of personality aren't generally changeable and such things become apparent through many cycles. Still, I don't think nature has set us up for eternal torment or heaven, it's just doing what works in the moment. With enough time and experience some individuals do manage to change the quality of their existential musings and to some extent cast off the slavery of their lymbic system, or find a way to live within the dictates of it that doesn't conjure an ever present void.
Also, I don't know what you mean by modern heart. It's an old heart in a modern world. We imagine a time when religion was more meaningful, but plenty of people find it meaningful today. I suspect plenty of people found it ludicrous in times of yore and deal with the same existential concepts we talk about here. The difference is for the most part they kept their mouths shut in fear for their lives. I see the foundations of Buddhism as an addressing of the existential dilemma and even the commonalities that gave rise to Hinduism if viewed through the lens of life experiences rather than physical lives can be seen as addressing existentialism rather than a romantic belief set. If we go back far enough to a more animist period I suspect the idea of everyone sharing the same vision of a world alive is romantic, though constant worry and effort for fear of ones physical survival probably does have the effect of putting ones melancholy on the back burner. Which brings us back to the idea that life has become too easy. The idea of a modern heart is romantic, a pat on the back for apathy. Go out and get it broken until something new happens, and if it doesn't, at least one can die feeling they were right.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: what you are ignoring is that people fall in love with thoughts, and that love is poetry.
I'm not following... Could you please explain how this is relevant.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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glad you asked Quote:
blingbling said:
Quote:
Rahz said: Bad diagnosis then.
Doesn't necessarily mean its a bad diagnosis, it just means there are no effective treatments. Some kinds of cancers are like that 
----> "often a suitable treatment is rejected for poetic reasons" is what I said because when people are in love with an idea like "the void in my heart ..." they can romanticize it into an artform - my glorious painful poetry. even though it may kill them, they will accept no treatment that takes the poetry away.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

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Re: Filling the Void [Re: Rahz]
#23990682 - 01/07/17 07:52 PM (7 years, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
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blingbling said: Couldn't we accept the fact that life is full of unresolvable dilemmas and that the void inside the modern heart is one of these?
I think people do well to accept things as they are. To view one's personal situation through the hypothetical notion that it will never change is presumptuous. Natural perhaps, but I don't think it's necessarily true and is part of the deceptive nature of our feelings.
What's not seen and not predictable is how the next cycle will evolve and differentiate itself.
That said, I think it's likely that certain genetic aspects of personality aren't generally changeable and such things become apparent through many cycles. Still, I don't think nature has set us up for eternal torment or heaven, it's just doing what works in the moment. With enough time and experience some individuals do manage to change the quality of their existential musings and to some extent cast off the slavery of their lymbic system, or find a way to live within the dictates of it that doesn't conjure an ever present void.
Also, I don't know what you mean by modern heart. It's an old heart in a modern world. We imagine a time when religion was more meaningful, but plenty of people find it meaningful today. I suspect plenty of people found it ludicrous in times of yore and deal with the same existential concepts we talk about here. The difference is for the most part they kept their mouths shut in fear for their lives. I see the foundations of Buddhism as an addressing of the existential dilemma and even the commonalities that gave rise to Hinduism if viewed through the lens of life experiences rather than physical lives can be seen as addressing existentialism rather than a romantic belief set. If we go back far enough to a more animist period I suspect the idea of everyone sharing the same vision of a world alive is romantic, though constant worry and effort for fear of ones physical survival probably does have the effect of putting ones melancholy on the back burner. Which brings us back to the idea that life has become too easy. The idea of a modern heart is romantic, a pat on the back for apathy. Go out and get it broken until something new happens, and if it doesn't, at least one can die feeling they were right.
I like this post :
With reference to the "next cycle" We don't know for sure that the universe moves in cycles, we could be heading to a dead end for the rest of eternity, but I think your coming to grips here with one of the only ways out of melancholy that doesn't require lying to yourself, namely identification with the necessity of the destructive forces of nature as a creative force also. This is much harder to bring to a human level though, its not very comforting when your whole family has just died of ebola. And that comfort is what the modern heart has lost.
Sure some still find religion meaningful, but most live with the spectre of doubt which wasn't always present, and the nature of religion has become unbundled from the rest of society in way which is totally new, hence attempts to return to a golden past e.g. isis, christian fundamentalism etc. i'm getting a lot of this from the philosopher Charles Taylor whose book A Secular Age goes into great detail regarding this topic. You should check it out.
With regards to animism, although the characters change the overall ontology of prechristian religions were pretty consistent in my opinion. they all had magic, a ritual calendar, initiations, a sacred before time like the aboriginal dreaming etc. I could go into further detail if you like but lets just say that through the repetition of cosmic archetypes even the most mundane activities were granted cosmic meaning in a way that in my opinion makes christianity and buddhism look empty of meaning in comparison.
I think the modern heart is an old heart in a modern world, and this is part of the problem, we have lost some of the good things about the old heart and that has left a void in the modern heart.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
Edited by blingbling (01/07/17 08:06 PM)
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

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Quote:
redgreenvines said: glad you asked Quote:
blingbling said:
Quote:
Rahz said: Bad diagnosis then.
Doesn't necessarily mean its a bad diagnosis, it just means there are no effective treatments. Some kinds of cancers are like that 
----> "often a suitable treatment is rejected for poetic reasons" is what I said because when people are in love with an idea like "the void in my heart ..." they can romanticize it into an artform - my glorious painful poetry. even though it may kill them, they will accept no treatment that takes the poetry away.
ok. but what if no treatment exists? if you have one I would like to hear it.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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Rahz
Alive Again



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Thanks for clearing up the definition of a modern heart. As far as cycles, I didn't intend to conjure up a breathing universe, only to illustrate that a view of how things won't change is likely to change, and then change back and so forth. We provide commitment to our ideas but if the fact is that we are simply attempting resolve in the absence of truth it's only a matter of time until we doubt what we once did not. Seeing these cycles take place we may begin to not take them so seriously, and it's in that type of knowledge that the world of feelings begins to loose it's dominant grasp. So it's not in being able to accept something we can't be sure of that we find some sense of resolve but in accepting that we do feel a certain way, which may or may not be correct, and eventually that none of our feelings are statements of fact. They're just how we feel at the moment. "I don't know". Having experienced both joy and despair in endless succession we can in our darkness have something to look forward to, and in moments of joy relish them with abandon knowing they will end. Perhaps the overall perspective might seem ambivalent but it's the rising above our nature that is the true reward and is not based in a belief set but in simple experience and understanding of how things happen.
As far as belief sets, perhaps Christianity and Buddhism were attempts to improve the ills of a prior system that wasn't as comfortable as you suggest and what we're looking at today is the ruins of a noble but ill fated attempt to elevate humanity out of false beliefs that only provided the appearance of solidarity. It's a hard sell for me as I tend to think that any belief retards the forwards movement of self knowledge and that comfort generally turns to sloth. IOW, the past couldn't save us even if we could go there. Or perhaps that's just my modern heart talking
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

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Re: Filling the Void [Re: Rahz]
#23991012 - 01/07/17 09:28 PM (7 years, 23 days ago) |
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Yeah, your coming at this from a different place than me, but it is still legitimate. Ive been thinking about this stuff for a few years now and I think the repetition has inoculated me against some of the feelings your describing. But, I know what you mean when you say it comes and goes in waves. I guess I've just kind of gotten over the idea that this is a problem that can be solved, so I don't get too emotional about it. However, I find it endlessly interesting, and eventually when the time comes where I feel lost I think your words will come in handy. I think the most interesting part about this whole thing is not necessarily "the void" but the multiple ways that people try (quite unsuccessfully I think) to fill the void. That's where the real meat is.
With regards to christianity and buddhism, I think the evolution out of animism was necessary due to socio-economic changes which have resulted in entrenched individualism. Animism as it was practiced only works that way in collectively orientated societies. The economic order, like the scientific order, puts pressure on systems of redemption and forces change, and this change may suit the new economic order better, but not necessarily the individual or collective, at least not in regards to their attempt to create a meaningful existence. We have essentially traded cosmic meaning for material success, its up to you whether you think it was worth it.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Quote:
blingbling said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said: glad you asked Quote:
blingbling said:
Quote:
Rahz said: Bad diagnosis then.
Doesn't necessarily mean its a bad diagnosis, it just means there are no effective treatments. Some kinds of cancers are like that 
----> "often a suitable treatment is rejected for poetic reasons" is what I said because when people are in love with an idea like "the void in my heart ..." they can romanticize it into an artform - my glorious painful poetry. even though it may kill them, they will accept no treatment that takes the poetry away.
ok. but what if no treatment exists? if you have one I would like to hear it.
did you write ok to "they can romanticize it into an artform"; because if you did, you had the treatment already before you. your poetry is your life write the life you love
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sudly
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The poetry is strong.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Rahz
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>>>I guess I've just kind of gotten over the idea that this is a problem that can be solved.
I perceive that many people have an experience similar to my own but don't assume everyone is the same in that regard. I think there are genetic differences that make it more or less of an issue, along with developmental issues during youth. I think your reference to an old heart existing in an old world describes the unity that dispels the void, a mind/body connection. In such a state I think we both agree there would be no void, at least not one that was a problem, solvable or not.
Regarding animism perhaps it's worth considering that the concepts that went on to form Hinduism were pre-existing, and they do describe in more detail than the tripartite model the mind body connection and potential for mind/body disconnection. Whether this indicates the modern world began prior to the formation of Hinduism, or that the mind/body disconnection was more common in animist society I'll leave that for you to ponder. Perhaps in transition such concepts arose. Though it's still difficult for me to see the animist model without feeling it's romantic I find your take interesting and will take a deeper look.
For me, I no longer see the void as an empty thing. It is always full of something. Fear or love, I'll take what I can get. It is not generally the most comfortable existence but when things begin to feel over my head I know how to back off and regain a sense of comfort and pleasure but those things are not the goal, just necessary aspects of being able to do more. This change occurred around 8 years ago and is what prompted me to change my avatar sig to "dead gone forgotten". In essence I had given up completely at that time, and yet that is also the point at which I found something inside that doesn't waver for long and isn't based on my desires or feelings. I spent years and tried so hard to change and become the person I dreamed I should be and it all fell apart, burnt to ashes definitively so that I had no hope of picking myself back up and continuing on that path. The effort back then was to conquer the negatives and yet I disdained (hated) self doubt, and viewed negative feelings as not trying hard enough and there was a mortal fear of feeling those things. I was hopeful but very confused and trying to convince myself I was not. But I knew I was onto something (more to the point I felt I had nothing to loose) and that is what carried me to the moment of that meaningful death.
Now I view such feelings with interest and is the primary vehicle that I use to gain self knowledge. The heart is known for love, but it's also home to some of the worst emotions, doubt, hate, greed, jelousy, etc. and those feelings exemplify the mind body disconnection. Relationships form and fall apart, often badly. The self relationship begins to form and falls apart, often badly. Without the mind/body connection it's impossible to be fully intimate with the self or with others. The challenge in resolving such issues once it becomes the goal is to forgo the desires of a selfish heart with rather than bias, kindness and understanding and thus bridge the gap into the mind so that the passion one feels does not become stuck in the body to stagnate and become a painful kind of void. In a manner of speaking the task is to give up one's humanity to become whole. I may never achieve this goal in full, but I do see the path and the obstacles clearly, moreso as time goes by. It is a difficult thing to do and I think that is why people tend to interpret the concept of karma and rebirth as a trans-migrational activity, hoping to achieve in the next life what they were unable to do in this one.
My take on the mind body connection? The mind body connection is the neck/throat (vishuddha). I wasn't going to mention it because chakras generally get a bad rap in philosophical circles, but if I'm trying to describe the essence of the topic from my point of view I would be remiss if I left it unsaid.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
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Re: Filling the Void [Re: Rahz]
#23992129 - 01/08/17 11:03 AM (7 years, 22 days ago) |
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that is the head-body connection. mind is all encompassing, but dependent upon body for everything at the same time.
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Rahz
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Registered: 11/10/05
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In colloquial terms body when use in reference to mind/body is a reference to one's emotions rather than the portion of our body below the neck. So coincidentally the head/body physical connection is also the mind/body connection.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

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So your "treatment" is to go the way of the artist, to throw yourself into some book or piece of music to ground the meaning of life. I believe this has merit, but I don't think it can fill the void we are talking about. Unless art has a spiritual connection to some ultimate redemptive force it will be empty at this level. Just look at the great renaissance works compared our modern pop art, the difference tells you all we need to know about the void inside the modern heart. Romanticism tried to create a new formula without reference to God, but it soon fizzled out.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Re: Filling the Void [Re: Rahz]
#23992237 - 01/08/17 12:10 PM (7 years, 22 days ago) |
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what about all the physicality that is not emotion? is that not body? and what about sensation? - definitely the mind body connection is largely sensation, not the neck which has only a subset of sensation to it. otherwise the postures and movements (body) dictated by habits (mind) are part of the mind body connection.
basic sensation is not emotion, but when complexed with memories(mental) and feelings (of pain and pleasure - feelings from body in mind) then emotion unfolds, and that emotion is therefore mostly in mind, and to a lesser extent it is also in changes to body chemistry and to body postures.
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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Quote:
blingbling said: So your "treatment" is to go the way of the artist, to throw yourself into some book or piece of music to ground the meaning of life. I believe this has merit, but I don't think it can fill the void we are talking about. Unless art has a spiritual connection to some ultimate redemptive force it will be empty at this level. Just look at the great renaissance works compared our modern pop art, the difference tells you all we need to know about the void inside the modern heart. Romanticism tried to create a new formula without reference to God, but it soon fizzled out.
Holy, you do not need to fill things. that assumption is just a habit. you do need to understand your habits, and you also need to appreciate what is, including what voidness is, and how it is fitting that it be there.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: what about all the physicality that is not emotion? is that not body? and what about sensation? - definitely the mind body connection is largely sensation, not the neck which has only a subset of sensation to it. otherwise the postures and movements (body) dictated by habits (mind) are part of the mind body connection.
basic sensation is not emotion, but when complexed with memories(mental) and feelings (of pain and pleasure - feelings from body in mind) then emotion unfolds, and that emotion is therefore mostly in mind, and to a lesser extent it is also in changes to body chemistry and to body postures.
I think it's interesting stuff, but also that you are making things more complex than necessary as it relates to the subject. Your second paragraph answers your first question except that you are identifying emotion with the mind when there is a distinction being made. Again, both mind and body in the mind/body concept are "mind", not mostly in the mind but fully in the mind regardless of the perception of locality. You may disagree but I don't think such a conversation would bring us closer to the point. The distinction being made is to point out the cognitive dissonance and inner turmoil that occurs in mind/body disconnection.
Despite the fact that all we experience is in the mind there is a perception of locality and that is the reason I bring up the "neck chakra". It too is in the mind but when I reference it I'm referencing a particular aspect of the mind, both the "mind" and the first aspect of the mind in mind/body paradigm. It is the energetic pathway that connects the mind to the body in mind/body paradigm. If you do some cursory research you will understand what I am point at.
"In its most abstract form, it is associated with higher discrimination and is associated with creativity and self-expression. It is believed that when Vishuddha is closed, a person undergoes decay and death. When it is open, negative experiences are transformed into wisdom and learning. The success and failure in one's life are said to depend upon the state of this chakra, whether it is polluted or clean. The feeling of being guilty is given as the most prominent reason for this chakra to block the Kundalini energy moving upwards."
The guilt could be a general association of selfishness in thought and action perceived as being of primary or singular benefit to the self but when desires are mutual or beneficial beyond the self then selfishness is not a problem but part of the solution. Being able to overcome such guilt is a matter of seeing that the topic of selfishness is very nuanced and can be either creative or destructive, and in general if truly helpful to the self will also be helpful to others, or if not will not be harmful to others. The desire for this type of discrimination is what works to remove the guilt and heal the mind/body disconnection. My experience has been simultaneous movement of emotional energy into the throat with transformation of desires and feelings, for instance of the confines of greed turning to a feeling of freedom, jealousy turning to appreciation... and pain of the void into joy.
Years ago I had a daily meditative practice and over the course of three years worked my way up the the throat chakra. I had extreme anxiety manifesting physically as strong lower back pain and sciatica. Eventually the physical symptoms moved up into the midsection. It felt like I had a nail embedded in my back pushing through into my abdomen. Not believing such pain could be emotional I spent about 10 grand to have experts tell me there was nothing wrong with me. Eventually I worked that out and moved on to my heart. The translation for heart chakra in Sanskrit is the unhurt. A lot of negativity is felt there but it's not something that meditative focus will remedy, so I moved on to vishudda quickly. I spent almost 2 years trying to get that working and eventually quit meditating in failure, coinciding with the meaningful death I mentioned earlier. I have worked my way back through other means and have had the realization that meditation can again be helpful. Back then my throat felt very little, and now I often feel most strongly there. I now cry from my throat rather than my chest or abdomen and it is a joyful feeling rather than sorrowful.
Anyway, I don't expect "chakra talk" to be well received here, but think it worthwhile to convey my experience anyway. It may be helpful to someone.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
blingbling said: So your "treatment" is to go the way of the artist, to throw yourself into some book or piece of music to ground the meaning of life. I believe this has merit, but I don't think it can fill the void we are talking about. Unless art has a spiritual connection to some ultimate redemptive force it will be empty at this level. Just look at the great renaissance works compared our modern pop art, the difference tells you all we need to know about the void inside the modern heart. Romanticism tried to create a new formula without reference to God, but it soon fizzled out.
Holy, you do not need to fill things. that assumption is just a habit. you do need to understand your habits, and you also need to appreciate what is, including what voidness is, and how it is fitting that it be there.
You might be right with regard to habits, but it is not an argument that contravenes my basic assumptions. Habits are sometimes correct ways to see the world. Just because something is habitual does not imply that it is necessarily incorrect.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
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Re: Filling the Void [Re: Rahz]
#23992560 - 01/08/17 02:18 PM (7 years, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: >>>I guess I've just kind of gotten over the idea that this is a problem that can be solved.
I perceive that many people have an experience similar to my own but don't assume everyone is the same in that regard. I think there are genetic differences that make it more or less of an issue, along with developmental issues during youth. I think your reference to an old heart existing in an old world describes the unity that dispels the void, a mind/body connection. In such a state I think we both agree there would be no void, at least not one that was a problem, solvable or not.
Regarding animism perhaps it's worth considering that the concepts that went on to form Hinduism were pre-existing, and they do describe in more detail than the tripartite model the mind body connection and potential for mind/body disconnection. Whether this indicates the modern world began prior to the formation of Hinduism, or that the mind/body disconnection was more common in animist society I'll leave that for you to ponder. Perhaps in transition such concepts arose. Though it's still difficult for me to see the animist model without feeling it's romantic I find your take interesting and will take a deeper look.
For me, I no longer see the void as an empty thing. It is always full of something. Fear or love, I'll take what I can get. It is not generally the most comfortable existence but when things begin to feel over my head I know how to back off and regain a sense of comfort and pleasure but those things are not the goal, just necessary aspects of being able to do more. This change occurred around 8 years ago and is what prompted me to change my avatar sig to "dead gone forgotten". In essence I had given up completely at that time, and yet that is also the point at which I found something inside that doesn't waver for long and isn't based on my desires or feelings. I spent years and tried so hard to change and become the person I dreamed I should be and it all fell apart, burnt to ashes definitively so that I had no hope of picking myself back up and continuing on that path. The effort back then was to conquer the negatives and yet I disdained (hated) self doubt, and viewed negative feelings as not trying hard enough and there was a mortal fear of feeling those things. I was hopeful but very confused and trying to convince myself I was not. But I knew I was onto something (more to the point I felt I had nothing to loose) and that is what carried me to the moment of that meaningful death.
Now I view such feelings with interest and is the primary vehicle that I use to gain self knowledge. The heart is known for love, but it's also home to some of the worst emotions, doubt, hate, greed, jelousy, etc. and those feelings exemplify the mind body disconnection. Relationships form and fall apart, often badly. The self relationship begins to form and falls apart, often badly. Without the mind/body connection it's impossible to be fully intimate with the self or with others. The challenge in resolving such issues once it becomes the goal is to forgo the desires of a selfish heart with rather than bias, kindness and understanding and thus bridge the gap into the mind so that the passion one feels does not become stuck in the body to stagnate and become a painful kind of void. In a manner of speaking the task is to give up one's humanity to become whole. I may never achieve this goal in full, but I do see the path and the obstacles clearly, moreso as time goes by. It is a difficult thing to do and I think that is why people tend to interpret the concept of karma and rebirth as a trans-migrational activity, hoping to achieve in the next life what they were unable to do in this one.
My take on the mind body connection? The mind body connection is the neck/throat (vishuddha). I wasn't going to mention it because chakras generally get a bad rap in philosophical circles, but if I'm trying to describe the essence of the topic from my point of view I would be remiss if I left it unsaid.
I think the transformation you experienced was simply finding the strength to stand up to the absurdity of existence.
The mind body problem was definitely not present in archaic societies. I think it is a product of our current spiritual decadence. The fact that we could even conceive of this shows how disconnected from reality we feel. We can't even find our place in our own bodies let alone the universe. That's probably why we stare into mirrors trying to find our "authentic self".
I'm glad you've found a centre in yourself that you can rely on though
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
Edited by blingbling (01/08/17 02:24 PM)
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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>>>>I think the transformation you experienced was simply finding the strength to stand up to the absurdity of existence.
That's actually what I had been doing all along and ceased. Life is unreasonable and illogical, but that's no reason to stand up to it nor does it mean it's absurd in some more judgmental sense.
Humans have always been able to hate, to covet, to be greedy, etc. They are innate emotional potentials, not some wild card product of the modern world. I don't see tribal living being as idyllic as you do, nor do I see some cosmic connection being facilitated by ignorance and faulty reasoning skills.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

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Re: Filling the Void [Re: Rahz]
#23993463 - 01/08/17 07:22 PM (7 years, 22 days ago) |
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I wouldn't say that tribal living was idyllic, materially and morally we are far superior, but they had some things that we don't, a connection to something greater even if it was just a product of their imagination.
I think that saying life is "unreasonable and illogical" is more of a moral judgement than to say it is absurd. By absurd I mean that we are want to be at the source of creation and simultaneously we are small, finite creatures. From my perspective this is not so much a moral judgement, but a statement of fact. There is no moral imperative associated with this view of humanity.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Calling life illogical is not a moral consideration unless I misunderstand your usage. It's a testament to the fact that in order to make it seem reasonable we find ourselves making things up. Whether it's a product of our imagination or not isn't as relevant as the inability to make that determination with any logical certainty. The lack of evidence for such made up things is evidence they aren't logical and should be assumed to be incorrect. If there is no good evidence life is logical then it's assumed that it isn't.
What you are calling the void seems to be the lack of something you expect to exist and your only proof of it's existence is your desire for it to be so. You think it should exist and therefore it must. Perhaps you are misinterpreting what the void and your own desires regarding it represent, and rather than some cosmic connection you're actually missing something more realistic like working intimate personal connections and more fully understanding your own potential. There is plenty of room for personal and interpersonal growth. Do you assume that no amount of that will have an effect on your perception of the void?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
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Re: Filling the Void [Re: Rahz]
#23994408 - 01/09/17 05:16 AM (7 years, 21 days ago) |
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Sure it has an effect, but you assume that I am clinging to ideas to help make sense of my own failings in life. This is an ad hominem argument. Not that it really matters regarding the arguments I've made, but my life is pretty fulfilling, I am just willing to admit that certain dilemmas exist in life which are essentially unsolvable. This doesn't mean I have a disdain for life which you seem to be insinuating.
I think what you are calling the "illogical" aspects of life are the same as what I am calling the absurd or the spiritual dilemma we find ourselves in, the void.
And its not so much that I expect these things should exist, its more that reflexively we (not just me) act as if they do exist. People want to believe they are making a real difference in the world, having an effect that will last. Science tells as us that time will eat us alive and push all our achievements to the trash heap of history. It's not just me that finds this disheartening, this is why we fear rationality and cling to the illogical. Some people have all the intimate personal connections they could ever want and still can't pry themselves away from the illogical. Even the most gifted people must face the existential dilemma, that's just the way it goes.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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I don't think the reflex you suggest is as straight forward as you make it out to be. It's a concept some (many) people have internalized, but the universe is just a concept that exists in our mind. When looked at in this way it's seen that it's an aspect of the relationship with the self that is problematic.
Whether your life is fulfilling I haven't guessed and I'm glad that you find some enjoyment, but if there is a problem that you are pointing out then it's a problem and I'll take your word for it. If it doesn't bother you then that's great. Whether it's part of a cycle you will experience, or a level of acceptance you've achieved I don't know.
Our inability to rationalize the universe is not a simple problem because if the universe isn't rational then everything that occurs in it is also irrational. It is happening maybe because it just is and for no specific reason that we are able to be aware of. Whether that explanation is enough is a matter of whether a person is able to let go of their desire to understand things they can't, otherwise it will become an unfulfilled desire and cause pain but I suspect there are other issues at play. And I suspect this is true then or now, even though I can acknowledge times were once more simple in some ways. But even then, assuming humans had the capability to rationalize there's no reason to guess it didn't occur to them that the universe was irrational and that everything was irrational and nothing made sense. Whether this was an issue or not would depend on the individual but solidarity then just as in more modern times demands abnormalities be minimized, so the idea that modern living requires the sacrifice of the individual may not be such a new phenomena. And although the question of existence isn't simple I don't think it's the heart of the matter.
Regarding your final comment, a state of absolute freedom is probably just an idea, but our relationship in that regard is not static. If as in your case the void isn't an issue, perhaps that is good enough. But a desire to be one with the universe is deceptive and I think the truth of our desires are much closer to home. Neglect may cause a child to feel isolated and alone while another person may make it further in life before such things becomes an issue. This points to personal and interpersonal issues making up the bulk of our dilemma. If it were just that life didn't make sense that would be an easy thing to let go of, knowing that one loves and is being loved not by "the universe" but by real people, feeling primarily a sense of appreciation rather than desire. If it's just that life uses pain as well as pleasure to motivate, it would be an easy thing to deal with and laugh about in good company, not perfect but good enough. It makes sense to work on the things that are approachable rather than consider the primary problem of modern life to be one without a solution. Perhaps we can agree that there is no ultimate solution that will result in perfection, and that it is not necessary for life to be worthwhile and meaningful.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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Re: Filling the Void [Re: Rahz]
#23995291 - 01/09/17 01:40 PM (7 years, 21 days ago) |
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I'm not encouraging you to smoke weed, but if we are useful, have been useful so that we deserve(?) weed, an occasional weed smoke is good
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
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Re: Filling the Void [Re: Rahz]
#23995575 - 01/09/17 03:45 PM (7 years, 21 days ago) |
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I think we disagree about what people need as a spiritual foundation and what arises from the presence of lack of such a spiritual fundation, but everything else you've said I think we agree on.
The thing about this whole "spiritual connection to the universe" stuff is that these days such things seem very 'woo-woo' kinda divorced from reality and often attributed to individual inclinations. But this conception of the devine is very new. For most of human history we had a very different perspective, and in the transition from secure communal systems of redemption to our modern conception where everything is up to the individual, something important was lost that we will not get back. This might not be a bad thing in the long run, but we should still face up to it as a genuine portion of reality.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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I'm not sure it's lost forever, meditation and maybe programming can maybe fit any shape?
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Quote:
Ferdinando said: I'm not sure it's lost forever, meditation and maybe programming can maybe fit any shape?
Prime example of the useless bullshit on here. Maybe I can trip my ass off and I can mold it into some kind of shape? If I meditate 40 minutes a day, I can be somebody? Maybe even a mod? Fuck me.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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pineninja
Dream Weaver



Registered: 08/17/14
Posts: 12,468
Loc: South
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Quote:
LunarEclipse said:
Quote:
Ferdinando said: I'm not sure it's lost forever, meditation and maybe programming can maybe fit any shape?
Prime example of the useless bullshit on here. Maybe I can trip my ass off and I can mold it into some kind of shape? If I meditate 40 minutes a day, I can be somebody? Maybe even a mod? Fuck me.
"Prime example of the useless bullshit on here." Way to rise above it and value add.
-------------------- Just a fool on the hill.
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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I would like to say in worst case scenario except death growth fill the void
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Quote:
Ferdinando said: I would like to say in worst case scenario except death growth fill the void
Seems the main issue we've been debating is whether the issue is specific or general. In regards to death anxiety that could be a specific issue and one everyone gets to deal with. I've heard more than one old person express the sentiment "I'm ready to die but not in a hurry."
Death will always be an issue for someone who has a will to live, but not necessarily problematic as an unsolvable existential issue. All emotional issues are worst case scenarios just before they're resolved.
As far as whether I should smoke some weed, I agree it can be good medicine. I have my issues but as a matter of debate playing devil's advocate for the sake of the topic can be helpful in furthering the discussion. Unlike alcohol marijuana seems more likely to put the problem front and center prior to providing relief and could provide some food for though, but like alcohol it's not a magic pill. Always smoking weed for relief, or looking at emotional issues in a too general sense probably aren't going to provide resolution.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Kickle
Wanderer


Registered: 12/16/06
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Quote:
blingbling said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
meditation is the "new" denial of death
- no way jose.
immersing in the moment is the antithesis of running away, the opposite of denial.
if it starts to become death denial, then you are witnessing an internal dialog, just take note and continue the practice.
(hold off writing that book for a few years)
Through immersion in the present moment we forget the past, stop worrying about the future and for many see through to the illusory nature of the self, correct?
In order to know death we must have a sense of the unique properties of our individual self and must have knowledge of that self existing in time, and time of course will eat us alive.
Meditation denies, destroys, mystifies, whatever you want to call it; the self existing in time hence it can act as a denial of finitude.
There is also the issue of nirvana or enlightenment which for many is really just oriental heaven.
Great points IMO 
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
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Re: Filling the Void [Re: Kickle]
#24005267 - 01/12/17 07:19 PM (7 years, 18 days ago) |
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Thanks
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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RJ Tubs 202


Registered: 09/20/08
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Re: Filling the Void [Re: Memories]
#24005318 - 01/12/17 07:33 PM (7 years, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
Memories said:
How many of you relate to feeling a sort of ever present void inside of you, typically stemming from a general dissatisfaction with life...
We often feel empty and unfulfilled because we confuse pleasure with happiness.
And we believe that getting what we want will bring us happiness.
Of course it never does . . .
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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but not true. My memory is fine during meditation, nothing is suppressed: the memory arises, and passes. it leaves an awareness of it's wake. I do not need to keep rethinking it - it is not forgotten or lost, but it need not re-circulate 5, 10 or a 100 times unless I am intentionally trying to memorize it. meditation is about watching - not adding, and not taking away.
I guess people have other meditations or are just making it up
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Other people have emotional issues that can't be resolved by simply meditating. Meditating is about watching so I think you should find Tubs point agreeable. If a person has issues and tries to use meditation to be happy they will fail. Meditation will bring issues to the surface and make someone less happy if happiness is the primary goal. If the goal is to relax the mind of extraneous thoughts and see what is still there they will be successful, but resolving those issues is not something meditation can do unless it's already on the tip of their tongue.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Re: Filling the Void [Re: Rahz]
#24007228 - 01/13/17 01:54 PM (7 years, 17 days ago) |
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in any case, it fills a gap (void) in one's schedule nicely without any particular drawbacks - way better than any obsessive activity. Better in the sense that as a practice, you are intensifying your mental ability to be still, rather than intensifying worrying. (all time spent practicing intensifies or 'perfects' what you practice)
some of the topics that look like questions but really are unsolvable paradoxes can really get you worrying, questioning your self-worth, self-esteem, etc. like: "what is my place in the universe?" and "what is the purpose of life?"
At least the first may lead to relativism and perspective if treated gently, but the second ask is only an opening for dogma and politics (as in dogmatic religions).
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
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Loc: Building 7
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Or, as Bill Cosby once said, Why Is There Air?
(hint: he used to be funny, like LL and other creeps and his ilk)
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
Edited by LunarEclipse (01/13/17 03:33 PM)
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Kickle
Wanderer


Registered: 12/16/06
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
I guess people have other meditations or are just making it up
both IMO
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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RJ Tubs 202


Registered: 09/20/08
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My post was a reply to OP regarding "feeling a sort of ever present void"
But, on the subject of meditation . . .
Meditation is useful to learn the connection between our thoughts and our emotions. Thoughts create and fuel our disturbing feelings. To observe how we react to these thoughts is helpful in reducing or eliminating the confusion surrounding them.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
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Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: in any case, it fills a gap (void) in one's schedule nicely without any particular drawbacks - way better than any obsessive activity. Better in the sense that as a practice, you are intensifying your mental ability to be still, rather than intensifying worrying. (all time spent practicing intensifies or 'perfects' what you practice)
some of the topics that look like questions but really are unsolvable paradoxes can really get you worrying, questioning your self-worth, self-esteem, etc. like: "what is my place in the universe?" and "what is the purpose of life?"
At least the first may lead to relativism and perspective if treated gently, but the second ask is only an opening for dogma and politics (as in dogmatic religions).
I think it depends on how you come at these questions. Personally I use them as exploratory tools for making sense of other peoples beliefs.
And besides, these questions will naw away at you whether you like it or not. Your probably better off having some kind of direct contact with them, but yeah, I can see how that could become pathological.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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I've played around with oneness but it never stuck. It's desirability is like wanting a pair of Nikes because all the cool kids have them. Wanting to be one with the universe is just another desire as far as I can tell, and one which requires delusion to satisfy. What makes you any different than a Christian telling me I need to accept Jesus, or a Muslim telling me I need to submit to Allah?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Re: Filling the Void [Re: Rahz]
#24009356 - 01/14/17 10:04 AM (7 years, 16 days ago) |
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yeah, spiritual materialism, and spiritual marketing.
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Lucis
Nutritional Yeast

Registered: 03/28/15
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Quote:
Duncan Rowhl said: Show sinners their TV dinners and urge them to try caviar. 
Sorry to get off topic, but...
Is it right to call someone a sinner, wouldn't just by viewing someone as a sinner, you would be casting a judgement in your being towards that person, and your mind will begin to pick apart that person, viewing things they do which don't measure up to your standard of living as being sinful, and by you thinking someone is a sinner, aren't you judging them, which is supposedly sinful as well according to some beliefs.
Seems like by calling people sinners, we enter a loop, then we end up being a "sinner" too just by our thoughts.
-------------------- ©️
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
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Re: Filling the Void [Re: Rahz]
#24013001 - 01/15/17 07:58 PM (7 years, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: I've played around with oneness but it never stuck. It's desirability is like wanting a pair of Nikes because all the cool kids have them. Wanting to be one with the universe is just another desire as far as I can tell, and one which requires delusion to satisfy. What makes you any different than a Christian telling me I need to accept Jesus, or a Muslim telling me I need to submit to Allah?
Was this question directed at me? Because I don't offer solutions, I just point out problems
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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jimbob1865
Curly Headedfuck


Registered: 03/28/17
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in you relating to the oneness you discover for your self, not the one predetermined (as in the Abraham faiths) or whose love is conditional on arbitrary actions.
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BrendanFlock
Stranger


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you can fill anything in a void..kind of like a black hole..but not subject to the subject object duality that a black hole..is..in 13th dimension..means not only light cant get in..but it cannot escape at all either..which is ether..in time..and aether is a beacon in the metaphysical arts..of magick and union..of the soul(atman) of the (Bodhi)body(void) near to next to death itself..is where all life comes from...or otherwise white light supremely shining at the end of the containers of the tunnel of tumblers..which is sorted filtered information..and it is cusping on the comeuppance..of time..which is a 6th dimensional circle..or otherwise triangle or cube..anything that could equal 6..is there sitting in the circle of the Garden of Eden..
Secret Shank Salvation..or even Shark's which are people who have done something too many times!
Cancelled..is a call to make the Void a bit brown..just like Double Triple of a small Coffee.!!
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