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irregular verb Registered: 04/08/04 Posts: 37,539 |
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glad you asked
Quote: ----> "often a suitable treatment is rejected for poetic reasons" is what I said because when people are in love with an idea like "the void in my heart ..." they can romanticize it into an artform - my glorious painful poetry. even though it may kill them, they will accept no treatment that takes the poetry away.
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what you chicken stew? Registered: 09/04/10 Posts: 2,987 Last seen: 3 years, 2 months |
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Quote: I like this post :With reference to the "next cycle" We don't know for sure that the universe moves in cycles, we could be heading to a dead end for the rest of eternity, but I think your coming to grips here with one of the only ways out of melancholy that doesn't require lying to yourself, namely identification with the necessity of the destructive forces of nature as a creative force also. This is much harder to bring to a human level though, its not very comforting when your whole family has just died of ebola. And that comfort is what the modern heart has lost. Sure some still find religion meaningful, but most live with the spectre of doubt which wasn't always present, and the nature of religion has become unbundled from the rest of society in way which is totally new, hence attempts to return to a golden past e.g. isis, christian fundamentalism etc. i'm getting a lot of this from the philosopher Charles Taylor whose book A Secular Age goes into great detail regarding this topic. You should check it out. With regards to animism, although the characters change the overall ontology of prechristian religions were pretty consistent in my opinion. they all had magic, a ritual calendar, initiations, a sacred before time like the aboriginal dreaming etc. I could go into further detail if you like but lets just say that through the repetition of cosmic archetypes even the most mundane activities were granted cosmic meaning in a way that in my opinion makes christianity and buddhism look empty of meaning in comparison. I think the modern heart is an old heart in a modern world, and this is part of the problem, we have lost some of the good things about the old heart and that has left a void in the modern heart. -------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again. Edited by blingbling (01/07/17 08:06 PM)
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what you chicken stew? Registered: 09/04/10 Posts: 2,987 Last seen: 3 years, 2 months |
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Quote: ok. but what if no treatment exists? if you have one I would like to hear it. -------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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Alive Again Registered: 11/10/05 Posts: 9,230 |
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Thanks for clearing up the definition of a modern heart. As far as cycles, I didn't intend to conjure up a breathing universe, only to illustrate that a view of how things won't change is likely to change, and then change back and so forth. We provide commitment to our ideas but if the fact is that we are simply attempting resolve in the absence of truth it's only a matter of time until we doubt what we once did not. Seeing these cycles take place we may begin to not take them so seriously, and it's in that type of knowledge that the world of feelings begins to loose it's dominant grasp. So it's not in being able to accept something we can't be sure of that we find some sense of resolve but in accepting that we do feel a certain way, which may or may not be correct, and eventually that none of our feelings are statements of fact. They're just how we feel at the moment. "I don't know". Having experienced both joy and despair in endless succession we can in our darkness have something to look forward to, and in moments of joy relish them with abandon knowing they will end. Perhaps the overall perspective might seem ambivalent but it's the rising above our nature that is the true reward and is not based in a belief set but in simple experience and understanding of how things happen.
As far as belief sets, perhaps Christianity and Buddhism were attempts to improve the ills of a prior system that wasn't as comfortable as you suggest and what we're looking at today is the ruins of a noble but ill fated attempt to elevate humanity out of false beliefs that only provided the appearance of solidarity. It's a hard sell for me as I tend to think that any belief retards the forwards movement of self knowledge and that comfort generally turns to sloth. IOW, the past couldn't save us even if we could go there. Or perhaps that's just my modern heart talking
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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what you chicken stew? Registered: 09/04/10 Posts: 2,987 Last seen: 3 years, 2 months |
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Yeah, your coming at this from a different place than me, but it is still legitimate. Ive been thinking about this stuff for a few years now and I think the repetition has inoculated me against some of the feelings your describing. But, I know what you mean when you say it comes and goes in waves. I guess I've just kind of gotten over the idea that this is a problem that can be solved, so I don't get too emotional about it. However, I find it endlessly interesting, and eventually when the time comes where I feel lost I think your words will come in handy. I think the most interesting part about this whole thing is not necessarily "the void" but the multiple ways that people try (quite unsuccessfully I think) to fill the void. That's where the real meat is.
With regards to christianity and buddhism, I think the evolution out of animism was necessary due to socio-economic changes which have resulted in entrenched individualism. Animism as it was practiced only works that way in collectively orientated societies. The economic order, like the scientific order, puts pressure on systems of redemption and forces change, and this change may suit the new economic order better, but not necessarily the individual or collective, at least not in regards to their attempt to create a meaningful existence. We have essentially traded cosmic meaning for material success, its up to you whether you think it was worth it. -------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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irregular verb Registered: 04/08/04 Posts: 37,539 |
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Quote: did you write ok to "they can romanticize it into an artform"; because if you did, you had the treatment already before you. your poetry is your life write the life you love
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Darwin's stagger Registered: 01/05/15 Posts: 10,810 |
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The poetry is strong.
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Alive Again Registered: 11/10/05 Posts: 9,230 |
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>>>I guess I've just kind of gotten over the idea that this is a problem that can be solved.
I perceive that many people have an experience similar to my own but don't assume everyone is the same in that regard. I think there are genetic differences that make it more or less of an issue, along with developmental issues during youth. I think your reference to an old heart existing in an old world describes the unity that dispels the void, a mind/body connection. In such a state I think we both agree there would be no void, at least not one that was a problem, solvable or not. Regarding animism perhaps it's worth considering that the concepts that went on to form Hinduism were pre-existing, and they do describe in more detail than the tripartite model the mind body connection and potential for mind/body disconnection. Whether this indicates the modern world began prior to the formation of Hinduism, or that the mind/body disconnection was more common in animist society I'll leave that for you to ponder. Perhaps in transition such concepts arose. Though it's still difficult for me to see the animist model without feeling it's romantic I find your take interesting and will take a deeper look. For me, I no longer see the void as an empty thing. It is always full of something. Fear or love, I'll take what I can get. It is not generally the most comfortable existence but when things begin to feel over my head I know how to back off and regain a sense of comfort and pleasure but those things are not the goal, just necessary aspects of being able to do more. This change occurred around 8 years ago and is what prompted me to change my avatar sig to "dead gone forgotten". In essence I had given up completely at that time, and yet that is also the point at which I found something inside that doesn't waver for long and isn't based on my desires or feelings. I spent years and tried so hard to change and become the person I dreamed I should be and it all fell apart, burnt to ashes definitively so that I had no hope of picking myself back up and continuing on that path. The effort back then was to conquer the negatives and yet I disdained (hated) self doubt, and viewed negative feelings as not trying hard enough and there was a mortal fear of feeling those things. I was hopeful but very confused and trying to convince myself I was not. But I knew I was onto something (more to the point I felt I had nothing to loose) and that is what carried me to the moment of that meaningful death. Now I view such feelings with interest and is the primary vehicle that I use to gain self knowledge. The heart is known for love, but it's also home to some of the worst emotions, doubt, hate, greed, jelousy, etc. and those feelings exemplify the mind body disconnection. Relationships form and fall apart, often badly. The self relationship begins to form and falls apart, often badly. Without the mind/body connection it's impossible to be fully intimate with the self or with others. The challenge in resolving such issues once it becomes the goal is to forgo the desires of a selfish heart with rather than bias, kindness and understanding and thus bridge the gap into the mind so that the passion one feels does not become stuck in the body to stagnate and become a painful kind of void. In a manner of speaking the task is to give up one's humanity to become whole. I may never achieve this goal in full, but I do see the path and the obstacles clearly, moreso as time goes by. It is a difficult thing to do and I think that is why people tend to interpret the concept of karma and rebirth as a trans-migrational activity, hoping to achieve in the next life what they were unable to do in this one. My take on the mind body connection? The mind body connection is the neck/throat (vishuddha). I wasn't going to mention it because chakras generally get a bad rap in philosophical circles, but if I'm trying to describe the essence of the topic from my point of view I would be remiss if I left it unsaid. -------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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irregular verb Registered: 04/08/04 Posts: 37,539 |
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that is the head-body connection.
mind is all encompassing, but dependent upon body for everything at the same time.
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Alive Again Registered: 11/10/05 Posts: 9,230 |
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In colloquial terms body when use in reference to mind/body is a reference to one's emotions rather than the portion of our body below the neck. So coincidentally the head/body physical connection is also the mind/body connection.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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what you chicken stew? Registered: 09/04/10 Posts: 2,987 Last seen: 3 years, 2 months |
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So your "treatment" is to go the way of the artist, to throw yourself into some book or piece of music to ground the meaning of life. I believe this has merit, but I don't think it can fill the void we are talking about. Unless art has a spiritual connection to some ultimate redemptive force it will be empty at this level. Just look at the great renaissance works compared our modern pop art, the difference tells you all we need to know about the void inside the modern heart. Romanticism tried to create a new formula without reference to God, but it soon fizzled out.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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irregular verb Registered: 04/08/04 Posts: 37,539 |
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what about all the physicality that is not emotion?
is that not body? and what about sensation? - definitely the mind body connection is largely sensation, not the neck which has only a subset of sensation to it. otherwise the postures and movements (body) dictated by habits (mind) are part of the mind body connection. basic sensation is not emotion, but when complexed with memories(mental) and feelings (of pain and pleasure - feelings from body in mind) then emotion unfolds, and that emotion is therefore mostly in mind, and to a lesser extent it is also in changes to body chemistry and to body postures.
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irregular verb Registered: 04/08/04 Posts: 37,539 |
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Quote: Holy, you do not need to fill things. that assumption is just a habit. you do need to understand your habits, and you also need to appreciate what is, including what voidness is, and how it is fitting that it be there.
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Alive Again Registered: 11/10/05 Posts: 9,230 |
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Quote: I think it's interesting stuff, but also that you are making things more complex than necessary as it relates to the subject. Your second paragraph answers your first question except that you are identifying emotion with the mind when there is a distinction being made. Again, both mind and body in the mind/body concept are "mind", not mostly in the mind but fully in the mind regardless of the perception of locality. You may disagree but I don't think such a conversation would bring us closer to the point. The distinction being made is to point out the cognitive dissonance and inner turmoil that occurs in mind/body disconnection. Despite the fact that all we experience is in the mind there is a perception of locality and that is the reason I bring up the "neck chakra". It too is in the mind but when I reference it I'm referencing a particular aspect of the mind, both the "mind" and the first aspect of the mind in mind/body paradigm. It is the energetic pathway that connects the mind to the body in mind/body paradigm. If you do some cursory research you will understand what I am point at. "In its most abstract form, it is associated with higher discrimination and is associated with creativity and self-expression. It is believed that when Vishuddha is closed, a person undergoes decay and death. When it is open, negative experiences are transformed into wisdom and learning. The success and failure in one's life are said to depend upon the state of this chakra, whether it is polluted or clean. The feeling of being guilty is given as the most prominent reason for this chakra to block the Kundalini energy moving upwards." The guilt could be a general association of selfishness in thought and action perceived as being of primary or singular benefit to the self but when desires are mutual or beneficial beyond the self then selfishness is not a problem but part of the solution. Being able to overcome such guilt is a matter of seeing that the topic of selfishness is very nuanced and can be either creative or destructive, and in general if truly helpful to the self will also be helpful to others, or if not will not be harmful to others. The desire for this type of discrimination is what works to remove the guilt and heal the mind/body disconnection. My experience has been simultaneous movement of emotional energy into the throat with transformation of desires and feelings, for instance of the confines of greed turning to a feeling of freedom, jealousy turning to appreciation... and pain of the void into joy. Years ago I had a daily meditative practice and over the course of three years worked my way up the the throat chakra. I had extreme anxiety manifesting physically as strong lower back pain and sciatica. Eventually the physical symptoms moved up into the midsection. It felt like I had a nail embedded in my back pushing through into my abdomen. Not believing such pain could be emotional I spent about 10 grand to have experts tell me there was nothing wrong with me. Eventually I worked that out and moved on to my heart. The translation for heart chakra in Sanskrit is the unhurt. A lot of negativity is felt there but it's not something that meditative focus will remedy, so I moved on to vishudda quickly. I spent almost 2 years trying to get that working and eventually quit meditating in failure, coinciding with the meaningful death I mentioned earlier. I have worked my way back through other means and have had the realization that meditation can again be helpful. Back then my throat felt very little, and now I often feel most strongly there. I now cry from my throat rather than my chest or abdomen and it is a joyful feeling rather than sorrowful. Anyway, I don't expect "chakra talk" to be well received here, but think it worthwhile to convey my experience anyway. It may be helpful to someone. -------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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what you chicken stew? Registered: 09/04/10 Posts: 2,987 Last seen: 3 years, 2 months |
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Quote: You might be right with regard to habits, but it is not an argument that contravenes my basic assumptions. Habits are sometimes correct ways to see the world. Just because something is habitual does not imply that it is necessarily incorrect. -------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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what you chicken stew? Registered: 09/04/10 Posts: 2,987 Last seen: 3 years, 2 months |
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Quote: I think the transformation you experienced was simply finding the strength to stand up to the absurdity of existence. The mind body problem was definitely not present in archaic societies. I think it is a product of our current spiritual decadence. The fact that we could even conceive of this shows how disconnected from reality we feel. We can't even find our place in our own bodies let alone the universe. That's probably why we stare into mirrors trying to find our "authentic self". I'm glad you've found a centre in yourself that you can rely on though
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again. Edited by blingbling (01/08/17 02:24 PM)
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Alive Again Registered: 11/10/05 Posts: 9,230 |
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>>>>I think the transformation you experienced was simply finding the strength to stand up to the absurdity of existence.
That's actually what I had been doing all along and ceased. Life is unreasonable and illogical, but that's no reason to stand up to it nor does it mean it's absurd in some more judgmental sense. Humans have always been able to hate, to covet, to be greedy, etc. They are innate emotional potentials, not some wild card product of the modern world. I don't see tribal living being as idyllic as you do, nor do I see some cosmic connection being facilitated by ignorance and faulty reasoning skills. -------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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what you chicken stew? Registered: 09/04/10 Posts: 2,987 Last seen: 3 years, 2 months |
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I wouldn't say that tribal living was idyllic, materially and morally we are far superior, but they had some things that we don't, a connection to something greater even if it was just a product of their imagination.
I think that saying life is "unreasonable and illogical" is more of a moral judgement than to say it is absurd. By absurd I mean that we are want to be at the source of creation and simultaneously we are small, finite creatures. From my perspective this is not so much a moral judgement, but a statement of fact. There is no moral imperative associated with this view of humanity. -------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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Alive Again Registered: 11/10/05 Posts: 9,230 |
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Calling life illogical is not a moral consideration unless I misunderstand your usage. It's a testament to the fact that in order to make it seem reasonable we find ourselves making things up. Whether it's a product of our imagination or not isn't as relevant as the inability to make that determination with any logical certainty. The lack of evidence for such made up things is evidence they aren't logical and should be assumed to be incorrect. If there is no good evidence life is logical then it's assumed that it isn't.
What you are calling the void seems to be the lack of something you expect to exist and your only proof of it's existence is your desire for it to be so. You think it should exist and therefore it must. Perhaps you are misinterpreting what the void and your own desires regarding it represent, and rather than some cosmic connection you're actually missing something more realistic like working intimate personal connections and more fully understanding your own potential. There is plenty of room for personal and interpersonal growth. Do you assume that no amount of that will have an effect on your perception of the void? -------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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what you chicken stew? Registered: 09/04/10 Posts: 2,987 Last seen: 3 years, 2 months |
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Sure it has an effect, but you assume that I am clinging to ideas to help make sense of my own failings in life. This is an ad hominem argument. Not that it really matters regarding the arguments I've made, but my life is pretty fulfilling, I am just willing to admit that certain dilemmas exist in life which are essentially unsolvable. This doesn't mean I have a disdain for life which you seem to be insinuating.
I think what you are calling the "illogical" aspects of life are the same as what I am calling the absurd or the spiritual dilemma we find ourselves in, the void. And its not so much that I expect these things should exist, its more that reflexively we (not just me) act as if they do exist. People want to believe they are making a real difference in the world, having an effect that will last. Science tells as us that time will eat us alive and push all our achievements to the trash heap of history. It's not just me that finds this disheartening, this is why we fear rationality and cling to the illogical. Some people have all the intimate personal connections they could ever want and still can't pry themselves away from the illogical. Even the most gifted people must face the existential dilemma, that's just the way it goes. -------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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