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Earhman
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Registered: 01/08/00
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Best strategy for generating Ps. cyanescens spawn for next spring?
#23967362 - 12/30/16 05:55 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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I have a single spore syringe from a trusted vendor and would like to generate at least a couple of cubic feet of P. cyanescens by next spring. I intend to make a good number of agar inoculations but would also like to attempt a ms inoculation directly into either rye or saw dust and then use the product of that to inoculate a wood chip sawdust mixture in bulk spawn bags that would then be used to inoculate a bed this spring.
So my main question-
Does it make more sense to do a ms inoculation of sawdust bran vs grain as it would be a much more selective for the Ps. cyanescens i.e. less likely to be contaminated? I like working with grain and would trust being able to work with it effectively once a stable clean culture was developed on agar.
Any tips on substrate to use in the spawn bags well as sawdust bran spawn would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Earhman
Edited by Earhman (12/30/16 09:55 AM)
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Ferather
Mycological



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Re: Best strategy for generating P. cyanescens spawn for next spring [Re: Earhman]
#23967411 - 12/30/16 07:19 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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The best way to germinate spores, is to use a substrate that molds in a few days, open air. And I don't mean any mold, I mean wood loving mold such as Trichoderma.
The mold will tell you it can germinate, be sterile 100%.
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Earhman
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Re: Best strategy for generating P. cyanescens spawn for next spring [Re: Ferather]
#23967514 - 12/30/16 08:49 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Ferather said: The best way to germinate spores, is to use a substrate that molds in a few days, open air. And I don't mean any mold, I mean wood loving mold such as Trichoderma.
The mold will tell you it can germinate, be sterile 100%.
So just to clarify, you'd inoculate a sterilized jar of substrate that is very susceptible to Trich. in order to see if the syringe was contaminated with Trich.? If that inoculation did not fail, then go ahead and work off of grain?
Thanks for the quick and helpful response.
Earhman
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Registered: 03/17/16
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Re: Best strategy for generating P. cyanescens spawn for next spring [Re: Earhman]
#23967597 - 12/30/16 09:26 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Best away is same tech as cubes. Same agar and clean culture then pure grain spawn into big wood chip soaked totes. Then spawn those into wood spawn beds
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Adden

Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 39,201
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Re: Best strategy for generating P. cyanescens spawn for next spring [Re: Earhman]
#23967598 - 12/30/16 09:27 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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He means move to agar to grains to chips if you're starting from spore.
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Earhman
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Re: Best strategy for generating P. cyanescens spawn for next spring [Re: Adden]
#23967625 - 12/30/16 09:39 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Adden said: He means move to agar to grains to chips if you're starting from spore.
OK thanks, on to agar we'll go.
Since one syringe aught to be enough for a few hundred agar plates I'm well set;)
Earhman
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Adden

Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 39,201
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Re: Best strategy for generating P. cyanescens spawn for next spring [Re: Earhman]
#23967638 - 12/30/16 09:46 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Pan (P) cyans, or Psilocybe (Ps) cyans?
Either way get it on agar and clean it up on a couple dishes with the fiercest leading edges. Don't forget they're gonna be dirty, more so than cube spores. A lot of contams on wild prints move very fast. Like, check every 12-24 hours fast. You can save yourself a lot of hassle by dumping these so you have mats to make more if they totally shit the bed.
I've worked with "clean" spores, as in, tearing the veil on a fruitbody to retrieve spores, and they're still dirty.
Might as well start a project on the side. I'm no expert but start there. Small glass jars with plastic lids are easier than pasties, since you can see better.
Never MS anything.. with agar being so easy in no-pour, especially.. multispore is only good for cubes in pftek and you still get contams. Especially bacterial.
Edited by Adden (12/30/16 09:57 AM)
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Earhman
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Re: Best strategy for generating P. cyanescens spawn for next spring [Re: Adden]
#23967655 - 12/30/16 09:54 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Adden said:
(Ps) cyans?
Oops my mistake there- Psilycibe cyanescens
thanks for catching that.
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Adden

Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 39,201
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Re: Best strategy for generating P. cyanescens spawn for next spring [Re: Earhman]
#23967668 - 12/30/16 10:01 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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No problem.. I linked this thread to a group of saprotrophic specialists. Some don't even do cubes.. I'm sure some will pop their heads in. 
What's your game plan? Just a rough outline for now.. also low-lying plants such as strawberries or ivy or ferns help shield your bed. It might draw critters but don't let that get you down. They do a great job spreading myc. I make it a point to go picking along game trails because they're always loaded from spores or tissue or just rubbing myc off on their fur.
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Ferather
Mycological



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Posts: 6,325
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Re: Best strategy for generating P. cyanescens spawn for next spring [Re: Adden]
#23967686 - 12/30/16 10:10 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Sorry I was being too generic, you are looking to germinate, the common method is agar recipe's. Mold is a mycelium, whatever germinates mold germinates other spores like cyans.
This goes for any spore germination, depending on energy source.
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Earhman
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Loc: NorthEast US
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Re: Best strategy for generating P. cyanescens spawn for next spring [Re: Adden]
#23967695 - 12/30/16 10:14 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Adden said: No problem.. I linked this thread to a group of saprotrophic specialists. Some don't even do cubes.. I'm sure some will pop their heads in. 
What's your game plan? Just a rough outline for now.. also low-lying plants such as strawberries or ivy or ferns help shield your bed. It might draw critters but don't let that get you down. They do a great job spreading myc. I make it a point to go picking along game trails because they're always loaded from spores or tissue or just rubbing myc off on their fur.
We live in a 50 year old pine plantation with significant but not overwhelming sky cover. I started a Ps. cyanescens patch about 20 years ago but didn't maintain it after the first couple of years despite it fruiting well. I'd like to create a couple of 10'X 2' beds between the tree rows and see how they do. We're in the 6a hardiness zone so a bit of winter protection will be worthwhile.
Thanks for the interest and guidance.
Earhman
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Ferather
Mycological



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Re: Best strategy for generating P. cyanescens spawn for next spring [Re: Earhman]
#23967708 - 12/30/16 10:18 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Clean sample from agar > lots of grain jars > expand 4 times on grain > spawn to grain enriched wood > bed with chips.
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Adden

Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 39,201
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Re: Best strategy for generating P. cyanescens spawn for next spring [Re: Earhman]
#23967720 - 12/30/16 10:25 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Find the really rotted pine areas or slowly introduce conifers.. they don't love it, but they like it, kinda.. it's gotta be nice and old and leeched out. If you can find chips that aren't bark and are softer woods then go for those. Sometimes alder chips are dyed red/brown and look like pine. All the cyans/azures I've found on pine are either in pockets of wood inside the needle beds, or off to the side where it's had significant time to rot and decay. Most of the time, they hardly smell like pine.
Shredded blackberries do well. Liloldme uses peat in his beds and they love it. I'd bank on getting other kinds of wood for it, and keep it away from water runoff where the conifers may leech into it.
You could also run ovoid side by side to achieve a really tight top layer. I know some are tentative to do this, with them being "parasitic", but both species love that tight top layer. This fall I found an ovoid bed with geolocs/mushroom observer, and whether it be spring or fall they're always spongey. Like how a fresh mycelial forest floor should be. You can press your hand on it and it has some give, but then molds right back into shape. Agrocybe praecox serve that purpose out here in the wild.
And besides, why not have a bed that fruits spring and fall.. just gotta remember to feed it every year or two, or if you have amazing flushes.
Another option is to build the bed and throw a couple gallons of LC in it. I know some people who don't have the space to do the whole kit-and-kaboodle will just make gallons and spawn them down north facing hills with woody decay. Or spots where the city chips trees down into the river (if you wanted one close to home). Don't forget some of these grow straight out of grass where substantial wood used to be.
Are you able to go take a shovel to where you want your bed to be and post what the soil looks like? You can even test the pH, which I recommend, I think liloldme had to work around a few spots where it was far too acidic but that might be someone else. You're gonna want it loose, I use coir for my planters, seems everyone I've seen post about beds uses peat exclusively. Eventually you'll be at a stage where you'll want to be introducing things from the surrounding areas since it'll be so strong it won't really matter anymore. Never cover it with needles try and use leaves.
Edit: I'm gonna leave this be until I wake up more and have my wits about me and see what others have to chip in.
Edited by Adden (12/30/16 10:43 AM)
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stevo


Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 5,100
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Re: Best strategy for generating P. cyanescens spawn for next spring *DELETED* [Re: Adden]
#23968766 - 12/30/16 05:57 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Post deleted by stevo
Reason for deletion: .
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Earhman
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Re: Best strategy for generating P. cyanescens spawn for next spring [Re: stevo]
#23969917 - 12/31/16 04:50 AM (7 years, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
stevo said: If you want to gamble and go straight up to the jar I would do the following to increase odds.
Do a test jar. And this is a good time to do a agar plate or 12. Don't dump out the whole jar and then say it failed lol.
Incubate really cool. Like 50-60 is fine, cooler is even better
Squirt down side of jar. If they do mold, you want to catch it at the primordia stage, not the sea of green stage. Since you'll eventually be opening you don't want all those spores all over your hands, so if it molds you may want to just take your shirt off outside, wash up in a bleach bucket, maybe even open the jar in water, and treat it like a plague. It will tap out once put outside and die off and the good myc wil win.
Do not shake. Woodlovers grow fast enough. That syringe is probably contaminated to some degree and its almost a guarantee it will take a good hold and ruin the jar during recover.
Incubate in complete darkness. Light is a fructification trigger for mold.
This being said and all I have had good odds going straight from the syringe but have lost a few. Shit happens and its a good way to get a lot of diversity. You might get a syringe thats cleaner than you think, or maybe a more dirty one and not really the vendors fault. So again do a test jar and never hurts to isolate a few strains on agar that look good either from the jars or new germinated spores or both.
Good luck
Thanks Stevo,
With a whole syringe there should be plenty to both inoculate a good number of plates as well as do a few jars just in case I get lucky. I've got a crawl space where the floor temperature runs in the mid-50s throughout the winter months so it's likely to be perfect.....cool and dark.
With a bit of luck I hope to have enough spawn by spring. Snow comes off here in April.
Earhman
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Earhman
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Registered: 01/08/00
Posts: 26
Loc: NorthEast US
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
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Re: Best strategy for generating P. cyanescens spawn for next spring [Re: Adden]
#23969947 - 12/31/16 05:28 AM (7 years, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
Adden said:
You could also run ovoid side by side to achieve a really tight top layer.
I'd not considered that. Surprisingly, it appears that the ovids are actually already found in my area so they'd be a good fit.
Quote:
Adden said:Are you able to go take a shovel to where you want your bed to be and post what the soil looks like?
We have about 12" of snow already so soil sampling may wait until spring;) I certainly can amend the soil if needed. Plenty of space and privacy where we're situated.
Thanks for the tips especially mentioning the Ovids.
Earhman
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Adden

Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 39,201
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Re: Best strategy for generating P. cyanescens spawn for next spring [Re: Earhman]
#23969964 - 12/31/16 05:42 AM (7 years, 30 days ago) |
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They run the creek beds and brooks where you're at?
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Earhman
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Registered: 01/08/00
Posts: 26
Loc: NorthEast US
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
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Re: Best strategy for generating P. cyanescens spawn for next spring [Re: Adden]
#23969975 - 12/31/16 05:52 AM (7 years, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
Adden said: They run the creek beds and brooks where you're at?
I've not actually seen them ..........just found them on a distribution map.
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stevo


Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 5,100
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Re: Best strategy for generating P. cyanescens spawn for next spring *DELETED* [Re: Earhman]
#23971456 - 12/31/16 05:50 PM (7 years, 30 days ago) |
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Post deleted by stevo
Reason for deletion: .
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Re: Best strategy for generating P. cyanescens spawn for next spring [Re: stevo]
#23972329 - 01/01/17 04:07 AM (7 years, 29 days ago) |
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Sorry stevo. I probably started the spelling error.
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