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InvisiblehTx
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strange intelligence
    #23954501 - 12/24/16 03:23 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/12/161221090246.htm



a giant cell blob can learn and teach to other blobs, despite not possessing any sort of neural circuitry.

Its literally one giant cell.


I thought it was a pretty interesting discovery with some subtle implications about consciousness.


Discuss?


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Invisiblesudly
Quasar Praiser


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 11,069
Re: strange intelligence [Re: hTx]
    #23955551 - 12/25/16 12:41 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Consciousness: the state of being aware of and responsive to one's surroundings.




Even a virus is capable of detecting nearby cells.


Venus fly traps can also count to 5.
https://www.sciencenews.org/blog/wild-things/catch-meal-venus-flytrap-counts-five

In my eyes all DNA containing organisms experience consciousness but only those with a developed neocortex like humans are capable of developing a sense of morality, a conscience and overall sentience.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: strange intelligence [Re: sudly] * 1
    #23958005 - 12/26/16 10:20 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

The intelligence of slime molds is incompletely analyzed in the experiment that is referenced in the OP.

The cytoplasm of this huge unicellular life form can become conditioned to tolerate salt and to thereafter stream easily over salty surfaces; and when some of that salt tolerant cytoplasm is pipetted into another slime mold's cytoplasm of the same species, the salt tolerant capability comes along with it.

The way this happens is that a particular gene expression confers salt tolerance when the original slime mold is induced by exposure and confinement (trained / compelled) to cross salty surfaces. Slime molds that grow independently from spores do not yet have this gene expressed.

The scientific reporter in the article takes too much poetic license in declaring the expression of a built in faculty equal to learning (it is a linguistic crime against scientific understanding).

While the ability to glide easily over a salty surface is not the ordinary state of slime mold cytoplasm,  it can be environmentally induced - presumably this exposure slowly raises cytoplasmic NaCL triggering genetic transcription - this is not learning.

This is just DNA transcription induced by local conditions, the same thing that is observed in any stem cell that due to neighboring physics and chemistry is induced to become a bone cell or a nerve cell embryologically.

Are we to call becoming a bone cell "learning"? No it is developmental gene expression.

The genetics is not changed, and no engrams are gained, instead a cytoplasmic factor appears conferring salt tolerance, and if the cytoplasm is shared with a fresh slime mold, the factor is rapidly effective.

Not learning, and nothing to do with consciousness. It is not even a tropism, though it is a built in modality for a tropism which is not a learned behavior.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: strange intelligence [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23958804 - 12/26/16 05:07 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I'm not saying they're intelligent I'm saying they are conscious.
It's a pretty interesting gene transfer though.

Also, there is work suggesting the placebo effect works on animals.
Quote:

This research goes back to the Russian physiologist Ivan Pavlov, who is famous for his work with dogs in the late 19th Century.  Pavlov performed experiments in which he trained dogs to expect food when he rang a bell. The dogs became so accustomed, or "conditioned", to hearing the sound of the bell and food arriving, that eventually the sound of the bell alone could make them salivate.

But the element of conscious expectation that can play a role in placebo responses in humans is arguably weaker or not present in animals, he says. "In principle they're the same, but I think there is a different emphasis. Animals don't always have a conscious expectation or they rarely have a conscious expectation of things happening. Humans do have that, for instance, when they go to the doctor or the dentist."

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20161017-why-animals-experience-the-placebo-effect-much-like-we-do




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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: strange intelligence [Re: sudly] * 1
    #23958860 - 12/26/16 05:34 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

there is no gene transfer

an existing gene is unwrapped in the cytoplasm so that RNA transcriptase will pick it up and make RNA to go to ribosomes to make protein.

this is a protein adaptation to salty surfaces, and it is not learned, it's part of the gene pack already in place.

these particular slime molds individuals are all in one cell, no cell walls separate the cytoplasm from one end of it's 4 or 5 cm body to the other.

the experiment is dumb.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: strange intelligence [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23958874 - 12/26/16 05:38 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Either way I'm only saying the mold is conscious, as is all life on Earth :imo:


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Registered: 08/16/16
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Re: strange intelligence [Re: sudly]
    #23958900 - 12/26/16 05:48 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Zombies?


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: strange intelligence [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #23958905 - 12/26/16 05:50 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

More so a philosophical zombie.

Quote:

A philosophical zombie or p-zombie in the philosophy of mind and perception is a organism that is distinguishable from a normal human being in that it lacks qualia, or sentience.




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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Edited by sudly (12/26/16 05:55 PM)

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InvisiblehTx
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Re: strange intelligence [Re: sudly]
    #23965773 - 12/29/16 02:48 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Rgv,you are way off here.

Did you even read the study?

The blobs show habituation , a simple form of learning.
The blobs learned to avoid a repellant.

They were then able to transfer the information to other blobs via cell fusion.
Cells have been known to fuse and share resources, apparently they are able to transfer information.
The blobs that never encountered the repellent were able to recognize it and avoid it.

The habituation was passed on through cell fusion.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: strange intelligence [Re: hTx] * 1
    #23965997 - 12/29/16 04:18 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

sure I did,
did you read it???
I have studied Slime molds in university, and I googled this species to get a better understanding of this researcher's activity.

These creatures actually are unicellular (no cell walls separate the protoplasm from one end of the individual to the other), and all that has happened in this experiment is that the salt tolerant proteins and rna + a few other environmental factors, were transfered by a sample of protoplasm.

this life form can produce these salt tolerant proteins, but normally does not do so (energy saving).

It can produce them when required because it has DNA to do so, but that DNA needs to be exposed to the RNA transcriptase enzyme, so that the RNA to Protein event will take place. Increasing protoplasmic salinity causes this DNA exposure.

learning is not a factor.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: strange intelligence [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23966105 - 12/29/16 05:13 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I think you're both right.

Quote:

Habituation: the diminishing of an innate response to a frequently repeated stimulus.





Quote:

We followed the habituation protocol we developed in a previous study using salt (NaCl) as a repellent.

Habituated slime moulds were paired with unhabituated ones and allowed to interact. When the slime moulds came into contact, they fused to form a single plasmodium.

Merged entities that included at least one habituated slime mould had a lower aversive response to NaCl than merged entities comprising only unhabituated slime moulds

Slime moulds that have been habituated to an environmental repellent can relay by fusion any potential changes in gene expression or physiology that occur during habituation.

http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/283/1845/20162382




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Offlinezzripz
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Re: strange intelligence [Re: hTx]
    #23966116 - 12/29/16 05:17 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hTx said:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/12/161221090246.htm



a giant cell blob can learn and teach to other blobs, despite not possessing any sort of neural circuitry.

Its literally one giant cell.


I thought it was a pretty interesting discovery with some subtle implications about consciousness.


Discuss?




Everything is conscious, alive, aware.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: strange intelligence [Re: zzripz]
    #23966160 - 12/29/16 05:40 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

ochhh
some people did not get slime mold biology in university.
ohhhh well.


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: strange intelligence [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23967329 - 12/30/16 05:09 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

not everyone goes or can afford to go TO university. Does this mean only those who can and do are intelligent?

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: strange intelligence [Re: zzripz]
    #23967387 - 12/30/16 06:38 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

it probably means they missed the course segment about slime molds, and the other social truth about scientists at university labs, eg. they are not all perfect examples of scientists.
ergo, such aspiring minds without biological courses under their belts would want to study more before attempting to critique scientific papers.


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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: strange intelligence [Re: zzripz]
    #23967737 - 12/30/16 10:30 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
it probably means they missed the course segment about slime molds, and the other social truth about scientists at university labs, eg. they are not all perfect examples of scientists.
ergo, such aspiring minds without biological courses under their belts would want to study more before attempting to critique scientific papers.






slime molds aren't covered, ime, in basic biology in highschool, and was barely touched upon in my basic university biology course.

i'ma have to agree with zz here:

Quote:

zzripz said:
not everyone goes or can afford to go TO university. Does this mean only those who can and do are intelligent?




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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: strange intelligence [Re: demiu5]
    #23967798 - 12/30/16 10:48 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

OK agree with her, but that won't help in understanding about slime molds, DNA, gene expression, or any of it.


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: strange intelligence [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23968636 - 12/30/16 04:55 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Mwhahaha


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