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OfflineLobi
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Measuring grain/water to cook invitro during PC
    #23951691 - 12/23/16 01:18 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Does anyone have any idea the ratio of oats to water by weight? I want to start cataloging biological efficiency but i think it would be way easier to do so to weigh 250g of oats in the jar, or 1250g per bag, add the water and then PC. I want the least amount of burst grains and a proper water content. Anyone know how to do this, help aid me in doing this, or point me in the right direction?


--------------------
The bonds and ties of the life we know break easily. But through eternity one bond remains; the bond of fellowship.
The fellowship of atoms,
of star dust in its endless flight, of suns and worlds,  of gods and men.
The clasped hands of comradeship unite in a bond eternal; the fellowship of spirit.

:mushroom2:My High Quality Lo-Fi Beats  -:mushroom2:MushroomCultivation Compendium  -:mushroom2:- Doing Bulk w/ No PC -:mushroom2:

:chillpill:more about my music :chillpill:

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Offlineenlightenment
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Re: Measuring grain/water to cook invitro during PC [Re: Lobi]
    #23951712 - 12/23/16 01:29 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I don't like this method. I tried it a few times but the bottom was always more hydrated (with burst grains) than the top. The jars colonized but I don't like it. I always soak, cook, drain, dry and load. It gives consistent good results.

It is possible to PC for 45 min. Take out the jars when the pressure is back to 0, shake, PC again for 60 min. But it is too much effort for me.

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OfflineLobi
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Re: Measuring grain/water to cook invitro during PC [Re: enlightenment]
    #23951760 - 12/23/16 01:55 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

It's not that my grain prep isn't good, it's that I want to weigh my grain dry for biological efficiency. Can't figure any other way to do it accurately beside that. I could just measure 250g per jar. If I'm doing 10 jars just weigh 2500g of grain, cook it and load it as even as possible. Just eye ball it. But that isn't exacts.


--------------------
The bonds and ties of the life we know break easily. But through eternity one bond remains; the bond of fellowship.
The fellowship of atoms,
of star dust in its endless flight, of suns and worlds,  of gods and men.
The clasped hands of comradeship unite in a bond eternal; the fellowship of spirit.

:mushroom2:My High Quality Lo-Fi Beats  -:mushroom2:MushroomCultivation Compendium  -:mushroom2:- Doing Bulk w/ No PC -:mushroom2:

:chillpill:more about my music :chillpill:

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Offlineenlightenment
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Re: Measuring grain/water to cook invitro during PC [Re: Lobi]
    #23951785 - 12/23/16 02:08 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I could just measure 250g per jar. If I'm doing 10 jars just weigh 2500g of grain, cook it and load it as even as possible. Just eye ball it. But that isn't exacts.





That's how I do it. There are only minor differences between your jars. Why do you want to have such accurate BE values?

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OfflineLobi
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Re: Measuring grain/water to cook invitro during PC [Re: enlightenment]
    #23951803 - 12/23/16 02:17 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Mainly because I am trying to isolate a strain that has high biological efficiency. As high as I can isolate to see how far it can stretch. See if I can having 100% + biological efficiency increase would mean half the spawn or twice the mush. Either way I just want to see how close I can get it and how far along my strains are now. Variables should be accurate as possible in mathematics. Have seen RR and Stamets and a few amateur cultivators get their grain prep perfect using this method and I just thought I'd try it. See if their was a way for oats or a way to figure out the measurements. I'll probably do as stated and just weigh, cook normally and eyeball


--------------------
The bonds and ties of the life we know break easily. But through eternity one bond remains; the bond of fellowship.
The fellowship of atoms,
of star dust in its endless flight, of suns and worlds,  of gods and men.
The clasped hands of comradeship unite in a bond eternal; the fellowship of spirit.

:mushroom2:My High Quality Lo-Fi Beats  -:mushroom2:MushroomCultivation Compendium  -:mushroom2:- Doing Bulk w/ No PC -:mushroom2:

:chillpill:more about my music :chillpill:

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Offlineenlightenment
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Re: Measuring grain/water to cook invitro during PC [Re: Lobi]
    #23951812 - 12/23/16 02:19 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

You are aiming high. You could weigh the boiled grain and load each jar with the same weight. That should be pretty accurate.

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OfflineLobi
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Re: Measuring grain/water to cook invitro during PC [Re: enlightenment]
    #23951933 - 12/23/16 03:17 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

BE is measured with dry weight as far as I'm concerned. Thanks for the help


--------------------
The bonds and ties of the life we know break easily. But through eternity one bond remains; the bond of fellowship.
The fellowship of atoms,
of star dust in its endless flight, of suns and worlds,  of gods and men.
The clasped hands of comradeship unite in a bond eternal; the fellowship of spirit.

:mushroom2:My High Quality Lo-Fi Beats  -:mushroom2:MushroomCultivation Compendium  -:mushroom2:- Doing Bulk w/ No PC -:mushroom2:

:chillpill:more about my music :chillpill:

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Offlineenlightenment
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Re: Measuring grain/water to cook invitro during PC [Re: Lobi]
    #23951938 - 12/23/16 03:18 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

You still know the dry weight. After boiling the the grains have a equal water content.

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OfflineLobi
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Re: Measuring grain/water to cook invitro during PC [Re: enlightenment]
    #23953743 - 12/24/16 09:32 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

enlightenment said:
You still know the dry weight. After boiling the the grains have a equal water content.




As in 150g of grain can hold 150g of water? Or am I not hearing you right? Thanks for taking the time to help


--------------------
The bonds and ties of the life we know break easily. But through eternity one bond remains; the bond of fellowship.
The fellowship of atoms,
of star dust in its endless flight, of suns and worlds,  of gods and men.
The clasped hands of comradeship unite in a bond eternal; the fellowship of spirit.

:mushroom2:My High Quality Lo-Fi Beats  -:mushroom2:MushroomCultivation Compendium  -:mushroom2:- Doing Bulk w/ No PC -:mushroom2:

:chillpill:more about my music :chillpill:

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Offlineenlightenment
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Re: Measuring grain/water to cook invitro during PC [Re: Lobi]
    #23953769 - 12/24/16 09:46 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Example:

  • You have a container with 2500g of dry oats.
  • You have 10(Y) jars.
  • After soaking and cooking the grains the weight lets say about 5000g.
  • Divide the weight of the prepared grain by 10 (because you have 10 jars)
  • Fill each jar with 500g grain.
  • Now you know that in every jar are 250g of dry oats.

(fantasy weight values)

I think thats accurate enough. Cultivation is not rocket science. I am still not sure if it is worth the effort. You'll notice if you have a nice isolate without scaling everything to a single gram.

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Re: Measuring grain/water to cook invitro during PC [Re: Lobi] * 1
    #23953773 - 12/24/16 09:47 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Weigh the grain dry, weigh your water, boil, weigh your water pour, weigh your grain. The only thing you would not know is the amount of water lost to steam... No?

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Re: Measuring grain/water to cook invitro during PC [Re: Lobi]
    #23953881 - 12/24/16 10:34 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Lobi said: Have seen RR and Stamets and a few amateur cultivators get their grain prep perfect using this method and I just thought I'd try it.



RR was one of the most vocal people against this method that I ever saw! Maybe you found some very old posts of his?

The recommended moisture levels will vary depending on the size of your jars. Small jars can have more moisture, large bags will have less.

For regular size jars the levels I usually saw were 100-120g water per 100g grains. Using RRs simmer method he apparently would end up with lower moisture than those levels. Years ago spore vendors would have their own recipes. Most were 100-110g or (100-110ml) water to 100g grain. This was usually for rye. Some say oats can hold more moisture, I have not really found that with my oats, just treat them like wheat, rye or barley. Some would advise to try various water contents and see which worked best.

I would agree with all the advise enlightenment gave. You end up with exploded grains at the bottom and drier ones on top. Also drier grains are harder to sterilize in the same time frame as saturated ones.

A mixture of both methods I have used before is to simmer grains to hydrate, this also cleans gunk off the grains. Now strain the grains, say 1000g ends up 1800g. This means if my preferred ratio is 100g to 100g then I need 200g more water in that batch. I sometimes strain the hot water into another bowl, if it is not the ideal weight I put the strained grains back in and boil for a little more time. The mixed version of both methods is to split my 1800g simmered grains into say 10 jars, each with 180g, not I add 20g of water to each jar and PC them. This is still not ideal, the bottom ones will be a little more hydrated than the top ones, but it is a lot less prone to exploded grains than the dry grain & water method.

If you really insist on the dry grain method you could at least leave them soak for 24hrs before PCing, i.e. pour 100g water into the jars with the grain and leave it in the jar. I have stuck jars in a cold fridge to soak for several days, I keep it cold so contams do not take over.

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Re: Measuring grain/water to cook invitro during PC [Re: blackout] * 2
    #23953888 - 12/24/16 10:38 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

OP, you must weigh your grain, then dry in oven for 8 hours at 350 degrees, then reweigh.  Then you'll know the moisture content and how much water to add


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OfflineLobi
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Re: Measuring grain/water to cook invitro during PC [Re: azur]
    #23954054 - 12/24/16 11:43 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

enlightenment said:
Example:

  • You have a container with 2500g of dry oats.
  • You have 10(Y) jars.
  • After soaking and cooking the grains the weight lets say about 5000g.
  • Divide the weight of the prepared grain by 10 (because you have 10 jars)
  • Fill each jar with 500g grain.
  • Now you know that in every jar are 250g of dry oats.

(fantasy weight values)

I think thats accurate enough. Cultivation is not rocket science. I am still not sure if it is worth the effort. You'll notice if you have a nice isolate without scaling everything to a single gram.




Thanks for spending the time to go in depth like that. I assumed that's what you meant and got the jist I just wanted to double check. Had I known that I'd have tried it and then dialed it in. I had also thought about what you had said "drier grains on top more saturated in the bottom" and "PC for short period, shake then PC again" before I had made this post but as you stated, it isn't worth that much effort.
I was wanting the answer azur gave, tbh. But what you have said has been helpful and useful.
I agree with your latter statement as well. I'll dial it in a bit, eyeball and rough weights.


Quote:

R34P3R said:
Weigh the grain dry, weigh your water, boil, weigh your water pour, weigh your grain. The only thing you would not know is the amount of water lost to steam... No?




Word. Lots of effort as my initial thoughts but honestly a good method.
Thank you!


Quote:

blackout said:
Quote:

Lobi said: Have seen RR and Stamets and a few amateur cultivators get their grain prep perfect using this method and I just thought I'd try it.



RR was one of the most vocal people against this method that I ever saw! Maybe you found some very old posts of his?

The recommended moisture levels will vary depending on the size of your jars. Small jars can have more moisture, large bags will have less.

For regular size jars the levels I usually saw were 100-120g water per 100g grains. Using RRs simmer method he apparently would end up with lower moisture than those levels. Years ago spore vendors would have their own recipes. Most were 100-110g or (100-110ml) water to 100g grain. This was usually for rye. Some say oats can hold more moisture, I have not really found that with my oats, just treat them like wheat, rye or barley. Some would advise to try various water contents and see which worked best.

I would agree with all the advise enlightenment gave. You end up with exploded grains at the bottom and drier ones on top. Also drier grains are harder to sterilize in the same time frame as saturated ones.

A mixture of both methods I have used before is to simmer grains to hydrate, this also cleans gunk off the grains. Now strain the grains, say 1000g ends up 1800g. This means if my preferred ratio is 100g to 100g then I need 200g more water in that batch. I sometimes strain the hot water into another bowl, if it is not the ideal weight I put the strained grains back in and boil for a little more time. The mixed version of both methods is to split my 1800g simmered grains into say 10 jars, each with 180g, not I add 20g of water to each jar and PC them. This is still not ideal, the bottom ones will be a little more hydrated than the top ones, but it is a lot less prone to exploded grains than the dry grain & water method.

If you really insist on the dry grain method you could at least leave them soak for 24hrs before PCing, i.e. pour 100g water into the jars with the grain and leave it in the jar. I have stuck jars in a cold fridge to soak for several days, I keep it cold so contams do not take over.




I think it was in his let's grow mushrooms videos but I haven't watched them in ages.
Thanks for the input. I am currently trying to get my water content right, my oats keep bursting and shitting startch every where so I've been under cooking my grains a wee bit and that's helped. I wasn't trying to do this method to help with that but just to measure BE.
I'll try your method, it makes sense and seems like a good way to go about it. Get a more accurate idea of the potential of water retention.

Quote:

azur said:
OP, you must weigh your grain, then dry in oven for 8 hours at 350 degrees, then reweigh.  Then you'll know the moisture content and how much water to add




:hairmetal:


--------------------
The bonds and ties of the life we know break easily. But through eternity one bond remains; the bond of fellowship.
The fellowship of atoms,
of star dust in its endless flight, of suns and worlds,  of gods and men.
The clasped hands of comradeship unite in a bond eternal; the fellowship of spirit.

:mushroom2:My High Quality Lo-Fi Beats  -:mushroom2:MushroomCultivation Compendium  -:mushroom2:- Doing Bulk w/ No PC -:mushroom2:

:chillpill:more about my music :chillpill:

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Re: Measuring grain/water to cook invitro during PC [Re: azur]
    #23954072 - 12/24/16 11:55 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

azur said:
OP, you must weigh your grain, then dry in oven for 8 hours at 350 degrees, then reweigh.  Then you'll know the moisture content and how much water to add



He wants to calculate BE, depending on what forumla/instructions he is using he may not have to know the dry weight of the grains. I wonder how many posters here, when they talk of BE, are taking into account the natural moisture content of their grains (or coir which I guess also as some natural moisture). I imagine most are just taking into account added water.

I was under the impression the whole BE thing came about for commercial crop growing, where they buy grain/substrates with natural moisture by weight and want to know how much of a crop they expect to get. They pay for 1 in weight, and sell the other by weight, so compare the too and would not be interested in if their grain is 11 or 14% moisture since they buy it with it added. They might want to check if both suppliers charged the same.

There is an easy way to increase BE, before harvesting make sure the grow is very well hydrated and mist well -I do not advise doing this! it really is just pointing out that a higher BE is not necessarily beneficial to us. You are just adding water weight to your shrooms. I have always thought if you are drying your shrooms out then the BE for mushrooms whose dosage is based on dry weights should use dry weights. If you eat them fresh I still think it would be better to dry out some for better comparison on how the strain is performing, as one could have a much higher moisture content.

Even if you are a commercial psilocybe grower selling fresh shrooms where it is legal to do so, I would still want to know BE on a dry/dry basis, you might get more money for your overly moist shrooms, but they could be weaker per wet gram, and so less return customers. It would be sort of like a brewery getting a higher "BE" from their brewing grains by diluting the beer down at the end.

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OfflineLobi
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Re: Measuring grain/water to cook invitro during PC [Re: blackout]
    #23954114 - 12/24/16 12:19 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Hmm, I hadn't that of that. I have seen grains over cooked to complete toast and they're like raisins of their previous form lol. That's great insight, thanks Blackout. I honestly would measure and planned to measure it by dry weight to see an actual increase in dry mass produced, which is what we want. Regardless what % it was at. I want to try and find what my strains performance is in relation to dry weight in/dry weight out. Increasing it is the name of the game. Not to have far yields or complete canapes. But for example(fantasy values) getting the same performance of dry weight out of 2qt of spawn as 4qt through genetic work. Being able to stretch the spawn farther out a bit. Using less spawn and maximizing recourses. Just an experiment I am actually interested in trying out. Whether or not it works or works well, can be done, etc. Isn't much concern, that's why I'm doing it. Gotta find out for myself.

But measuring BE is the first step and I have never had much information on doing it. I thank you guys, I didn't expect to get nearly thisbmich response.


--------------------
The bonds and ties of the life we know break easily. But through eternity one bond remains; the bond of fellowship.
The fellowship of atoms,
of star dust in its endless flight, of suns and worlds,  of gods and men.
The clasped hands of comradeship unite in a bond eternal; the fellowship of spirit.

:mushroom2:My High Quality Lo-Fi Beats  -:mushroom2:MushroomCultivation Compendium  -:mushroom2:- Doing Bulk w/ No PC -:mushroom2:

:chillpill:more about my music :chillpill:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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