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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: Where is the line between crazy and genius? [Re: SleepyE]
    #23955847 - 12/25/16 06:56 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

i think schizophrenia only "exists" because there is a sweeping social contract that declares what a normative state is.  while in reality, we ALL perceive things slightly differently, or in some cases, drastically differently. 


maybe i'm simplifying it too much, or maybe i don't want to accept my own delusions/dissociation


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Where is the line between crazy and genius? [Re: demiu5] * 1
    #23955883 - 12/25/16 07:33 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

I don't think that our cultures have an underlying sense of what mind really is.
There is a lot of social structure, and cultural tradition that defies acceptance of mental life in favor of duty, production, waste management, hoarding, and inheritance.

Slowly, I think, the fallout of cognitive liberty will be to better understand the associative process, and to appreciate how to navigate mental landscapes with dignity. When this is more solidly part of our social fabric, we wont have so many words for mental illness, nor will we fill prisons and need war.


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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: Where is the line between crazy and genius? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23955895 - 12/25/16 07:40 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I don't think that our cultures have an underlying sense of what mind really is.






fully agreed. partly because of this, we've set our sights on one, two, maybe three acceptable pathways of being, and all else outside of those are ignored or demonized.

Quote:

Slowly, I think, the fallout of cognitive liberty will be to better understand the associative process, and to appreciate how to navigate mental landscapes with dignity. When this is more solidly part of our social fabric, we wont have so many words for mental illness, nor will we fill prisons and need war.





without "dreamers" (one who acts/reacts outside of those normative states) we'll likely never "know"


:thumbup:




edit:  this is actually one "field" where i hope quantum computing is able to help us.  by running trillions of models of consciousness and observing cause/effect and total outcomes, maybe some glimmer of insight can be gained


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Edited by demiu5 (12/25/16 07:42 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Where is the line between crazy and genius? [Re: demiu5]
    #23955917 - 12/25/16 08:12 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

I am not sure we can delegate realization to quantum computers: being able to model more quickly makes each visualization more convincing than the last.
it is a good facility to have in a bag of conjectural tools, (if Q.C. even ever works at all,) but to understand mind, we need to stop and observe what is happening more than we need to run faster and faster into a model of what it might be.


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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: Where is the line between crazy and genius? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23955921 - 12/25/16 08:18 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I am not sure we can delegate realization to quantum computers: being able to model more quickly makes each visualization more convincing than the last.
it is a good facility to have in a bag of conjectural tools, (if Q.C. even ever works at all,) but to understand mind, we need to stop and observe what is happening more than we need to run faster and faster into a model of what it might be.





i wouldn't say delegating realization.  by running the models, one could then examine more effectively from a wider base of "evidence" how neural pathways interact, how one single input, then two inputs, then three, and so on, adjusting for each combination of inputs, affects the brain.  not relying solely on it, but using the data integrated with all other current knowledge.

having a computer run simulations also avoids internal biological processes from interrupting/misinterpreting the data, compared to the brain itself


ultimately, though, i think you have a good point that "stopping", inasmuch as one can, and observing is the most effective way an individual can come to better understand the mind.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Where is the line between crazy and genius? [Re: demiu5]
    #23956194 - 12/25/16 11:02 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

One of the biggest hindrances, is that the words needed to document observations have Webster's & Oxford's meanings that encompass very wide interpretations.

Neuro-chemical engineering requires a vocabulary in which words only mean one thing, so that processes are not confused with each other.

Poetry is important, but it is the antithesis of scientific modeling.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Where is the line between crazy and genius? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23956466 - 12/25/16 01:15 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

good point for it to last the test of time its necessary to be meticulous, technical in vocab and  as close to that standard in practice... at least for reproducible empirical data that is to become part of a foundation of science which can then be built upon without running into errors down the road simply because something led some one astray because of syntax or vocab or what have you.

a hindrance in practice, but a blessing to the continuation of the art of good science .


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Where is the line between crazy and genius? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #23956476 - 12/25/16 01:27 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

"the art of good science"

hmm...


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Invisiblesudly
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Registered: 01/05/15
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Re: Where is the line between crazy and genius? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23956774 - 12/25/16 04:28 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I don't think that our cultures have an underlying sense of what mind really is.
There is a lot of social structure, and cultural tradition that defies acceptance of mental life in favor of duty, production, waste management, hoarding, and inheritance.

Slowly, I think, the fallout of cognitive liberty will be to better understand the associative process, and to appreciate how to navigate mental landscapes with dignity. When this is more solidly part of our social fabric, we wont have so many words for mental illness, nor will we fill prisons and need war.




Hey look, a mind.


In my view mental illnesses that aren't physical abnormalities are learnt behaviours, e.g. forming insecurities from a traumatic experience.
Non-violent drug offenders shouldn't be in jail for life either, and wars are for making money for weapons manufacturers like Raytheon and Boeing.


--------------------
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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Where is the line between crazy and genius? [Re: sudly]
    #23956853 - 12/25/16 05:13 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
In my view mental illnesses that aren't physical abnormalities are learnt behaviours, e.g. forming insecurities from a traumatic experience.





I think that's probably right, but it's profitable to remember that the ones that are physical/physiological abnormalities are genetic, e.g. family histories of bipolar or schizophrenia resulting in the same illnesses in various people in the family tree. There are non-genetic versions of mental illness, like drug psychosis, PTSD, and what have you, but bipolar and schizophrenia, schizoaffective, etc., are the result of physiological deficiencies which lead to imbalances, that can in turn be treated effectively (i.e., allowing the person to function in society) with medications. It's all very clear to anyone with mental illness in themselves or in a family member. A lot of people around here, who have had absolutely no direct experience of mental illness, pontificate about how it can't be genetic, psychiatrists are evil, etc., etc. I'm tired of it.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Where is the line between crazy and genius? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23956896 - 12/25/16 05:33 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

the phrase "forming insecurities"
is one of those that hinders clear linguistic connection with actual mental events.
"insecurities" is an abstraction defined by "securities" which has no precise scientific explanation.
we all know what it means but nobody really knows what it means.

it is as accurate as the 4 elements: water, fire, air, & earth. which for thousands of years were the most 'scientific" descriptions of the time inclusive of thousands of chemical ideas, yet no elemental or molecular connections.


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Offlineviktor
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Re: Where is the line between crazy and genius? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #23956918 - 12/25/16 05:44 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
A lot of people around here, who have had absolutely no direct experience of mental illness, pontificate about how it can't be genetic, psychiatrists are evil, etc., etc. I'm tired of it.




Yes, as someone with a schizophrenia diagnosis and an M.A. in Psychology I'm also well sick of people presenting their arse nuggets about a subject they haven't even begun to understand as if they were pearls of scientific wisdom.

They just stop stop bringing them, though, no matter how much you try to tell them, so there's no point in fighting it. Just communicate with the respectful people and ignore the others.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Where is the line between crazy and genius? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23956967 - 12/25/16 06:03 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Really I think we're too focused on the influence of chemicals and neural activity in the brain rather than that of the intestinal and cardiac nervous systems.

I think the influence that the electrical and chemical activities of the intestines and cardiac system can have on emotions are underestimated.
In essence I think we need to try and think more critically about how biology is intertwined with thoughts and emotions.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Where is the line between crazy and genius? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23956973 - 12/25/16 06:05 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
the phrase "forming insecurities"
is one of those that hinders clear linguistic connection with actual mental events.
"insecurities" is an abstraction defined by "securities" which has no precise scientific explanation.
we all know what it means but nobody really knows what it means.

it is as accurate as the 4 elements: water, fire, air, & earth. which for thousands of years were the most 'scientific" descriptions of the time inclusive of thousands of chemical ideas, yet no elemental or molecular connections.




:what: :wtf:
Quote:

Insecurities: Emotional insecurity or simply insecurity is a feeling of general unease or nervousness that may be triggered by perceiving of oneself to be vulnerable or inferior in some way, or a sense of vulnerability or instability which threatens one's self-image or ego.




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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: Where is the line between crazy and genius? [Re: sudly]
    #23956992 - 12/25/16 06:13 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Really I think we're too focused on the influence of chemicals and neural activity in the brain rather than that of the intestinal and cardiac nervous systems.

I think the influence that the electrical and chemical activities of the intestines and cardiac system can have on emotions are underestimated.
In essence I think we need to try and think more critically about how biology is intertwined with thoughts and emotions.






stomach/spleen/intestinal and dental health is well-linked to brain and emotional health. often overlooked, even by general practitioners, but linked


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Where is the line between crazy and genius? [Re: demiu5]
    #23957004 - 12/25/16 06:22 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

I don't know about dental health but the Autonomic nervous system that regulates internal organs is linked to blood pressure, linked but often overlooked.

Quote:

The autonomic nervous system (ANS) is a division of the peripheral nervous system that influences the function of internal organs. The autonomic nervous system is a control system that acts largely unconsciously and regulates bodily functions such as the heart rate, digestion, respiratory rate, pupillary response, urination, and sexual arousal. This system is the primary mechanism in control of the fight-or-flight response and the freeze-and-dissociate response.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomic_nervous_system




Quote:

The autonomic nervous system and its sympathetic arm play important roles in the regulation of blood pressure.
http://hyper.ahajournals.org/content/56/1/10




Quote:

Hypertension — the chronic elevation of blood pressure — is a major human health problem. In most cases, the root cause of the disease remains unknown, but there is mounting evidence that many forms of hypertension are initiated and maintained by an elevated sympathetic tone.
http://www.nature.com/nrn/journal/v7/n5/full/nrn1902.html




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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: Where is the line between crazy and genius? [Re: sudly]
    #23957014 - 12/25/16 06:27 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

while one can survive without a spleen, it plays a huge role in blood distribution, in addition to its commonly known role in blood purification/recycling.  i don't have scientific links handy, but i did a shitton of research into this recently (spleen, stomach, intestines, colons) and just about everything said the same thing


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OfflineSleepyE
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Re: Where is the line between crazy and genius? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23957553 - 12/26/16 12:31 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:


I think that's probably right, but it's profitable to remember that the ones that are physical/physiological abnormalities are genetic, e.g. family histories of bipolar or schizophrenia resulting in the same illnesses in various people in the family tree. There are non-genetic versions of mental illness, like drug psychosis, PTSD, and what have you, but bipolar and schizophrenia, schizoaffective, etc., are the result of physiological deficiencies which lead to imbalances, that can in turn be treated effectively (i.e., allowing the person to function in society) with medications. It's all very clear to anyone with mental illness in themselves or in a family member. A lot of people around here, who have had absolutely no direct experience of mental illness, pontificate about how it can't be genetic, psychiatrists are evil, etc., etc. I'm tired of it.




In my early childhood days of around 8-12 i had experience with/ was diagnosed with various mental disorders So i think i possibly have a perspective that might be of some value to this topic if nothing else.

when i was in grade 3 i was playing with a friend at recess, we were making sound effects to go with some sort of game we were playing and it was a type of "beeping" noise. at the end of recess randomly i thought to myself "what if i never stopped making this noise" and then somehow i kept up the noise a little longer and all the sudden that thought resonated in my mind and i couldnt stop making the noise every 2-5 minutes. It was weird i would feel a phantom scratchyness in my throat which was habitually "reflexed" to believe that this "beeping" noise would clear the discomfort that wasnt actually there but imagined. so i would clear my throat alot and make this beeping noise, every day.
I got in trouble in class when i wouldn't stop making the noise and the teacher was trying to discipline me for it but then my mom came in and told them there is something wrong with me and i cant help make the noise.
i went to my family doctor and he concluded to my mom apparently that i had "tourrettes" syndrome. i wouldnt make the noise if i was occupied with a heavy activity like playing at recess but once i came inside to do work i couldn't help myself make that fucking noise.

it took me a year or two to tame the impulse especially when i really needed to clear my throat if i swallowed down the wrong tub.
I cringe even now when i think about it because i can feel the memory of the habit and how awful it would be if i got into the habit of it again.

anyways when i was 12 i received cognitive behavior therapy from a psychiatrist/psychologist(forget which one) because i had the intrusive thoughts type of OCD and it caused me to be dysfunctional.

anyways i bring all this up because im kind of skeptical of my diagnosis of tourrettes because in my mind it feels like the exact same mental processes as the intrusive thoughts(OCD) i had. A similar "what if" statement is in both issues
i do believe that these issues i had in the past are genetic but i really do thinl that they can be controlled by mental conditioning and maybe the chemical imbalances which cause them don't have to limit how much control you have over your own mind.

im not sure if its genetic or learned behavior. but i really do believe mental conditioning can establish order.
The CBT i received from them was unsuccessful btw.
psilocybin!! ftw! at 16 yr old


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Edited by SleepyE (12/26/16 01:15 AM)


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Where is the line between crazy and genius? [Re: SleepyE]
    #23957721 - 12/26/16 06:10 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

I think maybe intelligent association can be considered atypical and therefor crazy except in the society of the intelligent. Indeed the scientific community has to maintain bulwarks of credibility to parry the accusation of insanity. It might be noted then that the truly intelligent will conceal their ability so as to pass as normal without the stigma of latent craziness.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Where is the line between crazy and genius? [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #23957731 - 12/26/16 06:16 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Buster_Brown said:
I think maybe intelligent association can be considered atypical and therefor crazy except in the society of the intelligent. Indeed the scientific community has to maintain bulwarks of credibility to parry the accusation of insanity. It might be noted then that the truly intelligent will conceal their ability so as to pass as normal without the stigma of latent craziness.




By normal, you mean average, and a part of the herd.  By definition a genius isn't part of the herd, and isn't normal.  The herd loves to stigmatize anybody not in the herd.  That's called "normal" herd mentality.


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