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Failboat
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Re: TRUE CONFESSIONS - of an amateur mycologist [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#27294854 - 05/04/21 11:49 PM (2 years, 8 months ago) |
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If you're gonna do it funky then let your oats start malting. MEA>Malted oats>sub. Could be a winner. So far slightly germinated grain has PCd fine from my recent experiences. This of course requires actually hydrating the grain.
Edited by Failboat (05/04/21 11:49 PM)
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Mateja



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Re: TRUE CONFESSIONS - of an amateur mycologist [Re: Stipe-n Cap] 1
#27294858 - 05/04/21 11:57 PM (2 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
p9hu7 said: You can't soak something as dense as oats and expect saturation before germination. It's not a thing and we all know that improper hydration is synonymous with incomplete sterilization, period.
Since I started gathering my info about bacteria from microbiology forums instead of Shroomery I've had to relearn lots of stuff, and I'm kind of still hesitant to share some of the info since I've noticed it can 'stirr up' emotions and be inflammatory.
But just to make a couple of points in response to earlier posts, what I'm reading about bacteria on grains (outside of Shroomery) is that bacteria is situated on the outside of the grains and is not incapsulated within. Also another thing to consider (if we assume that bacteria after all does get incapsulated inside the grain) is if the inner parts of the grain isn't properly hydrated (and thus can't be properly sterilized) then how is the bacterial spores supposed to germinate and even if they managed to germinate how would live bacteria be able to deal with the osmotic pressures inside the grain and how would it be able to make its way out of the grain since most bacteria is non motile and even the most motile ones can not move on solids only in liquids?
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verum subsequentis
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Re: TRUE CONFESSIONS - of an amateur mycologist [Re: Failboat]
#27294859 - 05/04/21 11:59 PM (2 years, 8 months ago) |
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I'd love to see experiments. I may try some oats just to figure it out. I'll let you know how these wheat bags go. Are you arguing that it won't work with oats only or do you think wheat and rye too?
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Mycelium Juice
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Re: TRUE CONFESSIONS - of an amateur mycologist [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#27294862 - 05/05/21 12:01 AM (2 years, 8 months ago) |
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I tried his soak only method like a month ago, even spit in the bucket for yeast like he did. Took them out of the bucket after 24 hrs and noped them into a pot to get them fully hydrated. Definitely curious about it- but was too chicken shit to waste my time trying. It didn't look like it was gonna work out well.
He does some have some good pointers- maybe not flame throwing your sub, but I've loved throwing out my strainer and just dumping grains in the sink to dry, which I learned from him. Wouldn't work for millet or wbs- but works great for oats or rye berry- plus a sink holds a ton more than a strainer.
Meyers mushrooms dude does soak only too, and even wrote a tek about it on this site. And youtube
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verum subsequentis
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Re: TRUE CONFESSIONS - of an amateur mycologist [Re: Mycelium Juice]
#27294863 - 05/05/21 12:03 AM (2 years, 8 months ago) |
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Depends on the "Strainer".
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
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Re: TRUE CONFESSIONS - of an amateur mycologist [Re: Mateja]
#27294864 - 05/05/21 12:05 AM (2 years, 8 months ago) |
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It's not that there are bacteria inside of the grain. The problem is that the energy required to sterilize the grain does not efficiently transfer to the interior due to improper hydration, only the exterior of the grain is hydrated and sterilized. So, if you have a large number of individual grains that at their core have not received sufficient energy to achieve full sterilization, you are in effect inoculating your culture with nutrient rich, unsterilized medium upon which any surviving bacterium, or introduced bacterium can flourish.
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
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Quote:
verum subsequentis said: I'd love to see experiments. I may try some oats just to figure it out. I'll let you know how these wheat bags go. Are you arguing that it won't work with oats only or do you think wheat and rye too?
I'm not saying that it won't work, I'm saying that its sub optimal and may readily result in bacterial spawn. Like I said before, any result is not synonymous with best results. I believe this to be a reasonable statement. I stand by it firmly.
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verum subsequentis
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Re: TRUE CONFESSIONS - of an amateur mycologist [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#27294867 - 05/05/21 12:08 AM (2 years, 8 months ago) |
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OK then. I guess results rule.
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Stipe-n Cap


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Quote:
verum subsequentis said: OK then. I guess results rule.
Precisely my point.
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Failboat
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Re: TRUE CONFESSIONS - of an amateur mycologist [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#27294871 - 05/05/21 12:16 AM (2 years, 8 months ago) |
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Mycelium doesn't really dig dry food, but I don't know what germs are surviving on these dry but still hot AF grains in the PC 3hr deep. how dry is your bag or jar contents that the grain isnt even parcooked? Millet is troublesome because nobody wants mush mess, but if you load grain wet after a 24 cold soak it oughta work plenty fine.
...need me a ton of wheat next purchase...
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Mateja



Registered: 07/14/16
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Re: TRUE CONFESSIONS - of an amateur mycologist [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#27294873 - 05/05/21 12:17 AM (2 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
p9hu7 said: So, if you have a large number of individual grains that at their core have not received sufficient energy to achieve full sterilization, you are in effect inoculating your culture with nutrient rich, unsterilized medium upon which any surviving bacterium, or introduced bacterium can flourish.
I'm sry but Im having a hard time making sense of this post hehe so by "nutrient rich unsterilized medium" do you mean the unproperly hydrated grains? If so then my question still stands, how can bacteria germinate on insufficient water activity and how can live bacteria motile or not, make its way through improperly hydrated center of the grain outwards? It just doesn't make any sense regarding how bacteria spreads.
-------------------- Cakes inside Water Tub
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Josex
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Re: TRUE CONFESSIONS - of an amateur mycologist [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#27294874 - 05/05/21 12:17 AM (2 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
p9hu7 said: I have tried to achieve this numerous times and conclude that most people don't even know what clean spawn looks like.
Oh you bet I confess I can't think of how many time I've thought this myself. You can even throw a lot of TC's in this group.
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Stipe-n Cap


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Re: TRUE CONFESSIONS - of an amateur mycologist [Re: Failboat]
#27294877 - 05/05/21 12:19 AM (2 years, 8 months ago) |
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Go ahead and place a single grain of dry, unsterilized grain into a bag of sterilized grain and see what happens. Better yet, why don't you cut that dry peice of unsterilized grain into the smallest piece you can manage, and then place that inside of your jar or bag and let me know how it works out.
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Mr. Mushie

Registered: 01/16/20
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Quote:
verum subsequentis said: OK then. I guess results rule.
I'll be patiently awaiting your findings.
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Stipe-n Cap


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Re: TRUE CONFESSIONS - of an amateur mycologist [Re: Mateja]
#27294880 - 05/05/21 12:21 AM (2 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Some Dude said:
Quote:
p9hu7 said: So, if you have a large number of individual grains that at their core have not received sufficient energy to achieve full sterilization, you are in effect inoculating your culture with nutrient rich, unsterilized medium upon which any surviving bacterium, or introduced bacterium can flourish.
I'm sry but Im having a hard time making sense of this post hehe so by "nutrient rich unsterilized medium" do you mean the unproperly hydrated grains? If so then my question still stands, how can bacteria germinate on insufficient water activity and how can live bacteria motile or not, make its way through improperly hydrated center of the grain outwards? It just doesn't make any sense regarding how bacteria spreads.
Take a minute to read my statement.
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Failboat
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Re: TRUE CONFESSIONS - of an amateur mycologist [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#27294881 - 05/05/21 12:23 AM (2 years, 8 months ago) |
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Sure, but if you run one dry grain through the sterilizer amongst many hydrated grains I'd bed it'll come out clean enough when were talking bout bags of poorly hydrated grain. I'm thinking within the scope of typical cult work.
I confess I've been slackin on spawning like a dozen more bags this week.
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Josex
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Re: TRUE CONFESSIONS - of an amateur mycologist [Re: Mateja]
#27294882 - 05/05/21 12:24 AM (2 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Some Dude said:
Quote:
p9hu7 said: So, if you have a large number of individual grains that at their core have not received sufficient energy to achieve full sterilization, you are in effect inoculating your culture with nutrient rich, unsterilized medium upon which any surviving bacterium, or introduced bacterium can flourish.
I'm sry but Im having a hard time making sense of this post hehe so by "nutrient rich unsterilized medium" do you mean the unproperly hydrated grains? If so then my question still stands, how can bacteria germinate on insufficient water activity and how can live bacteria motile or not, make its way through improperly hydrated center of the grain outwards? It just doesn't make any sense regarding how bacteria spreads.
Instead of hinting at stuff, being coy and saying this subject is inflammatory and all (I know where you get that from) you could just link to that paper that proves that endospores don't reside inside the grain.
You say you've been reading a lot outside shroomery and you're getting your facts about all this from people who don't grow mushrooms. I'm telling you I don't read but the amount of experience over the years and all my late experimenting and testing make it so that I would be most surprised to learn that endospores can't be inside the grains, it just would not make sense then.
Again like said before, testing needs to be done (which I have done) and documenting too (which I haven't), otherwise we're just chatting with nothing tangible on the table.
I also want to see canopies from someone that claims that soaked only oats work.
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Mateja



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Re: TRUE CONFESSIONS - of an amateur mycologist [Re: Failboat]
#27294883 - 05/05/21 12:26 AM (2 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Quirkmeister92 said: Mycelium doesn't really dig dry food, but I don't know what germs are surviving on these dry but still hot AF grains in the PC 3hr deep. 
Here's an idea of what kind of water activity is required for growth of different microbes. Water activity is not the same as water content.

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Stipe-n Cap


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Re: TRUE CONFESSIONS - of an amateur mycologist [Re: Failboat]
#27294886 - 05/05/21 12:29 AM (2 years, 8 months ago) |
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Guys, I'm really surprised that I need to explain this, honestly.
If you have over hydrated grains, is it a sufficient condition for bacterial contamination? No, why? Because sterile wet grains, are sterile wet grains, yes? Good.
So, any person who attempts to inoculate overly wet grains this wet environment will become a testnof your sterile technique, amd be prone to contamination why? Because bacteria is motile and reproduces readily in nutrient rich solution.
Now...
If you have incomplete sterilization of your grain, you have partial sterilization by definition, yet you still have moisture, and highly nutritious material, yes? And what does bacteria like? Wet, nutrient rich environments...
So, in summary. If you have an environment where bacteria can proliferate, it will proliferate. Can we not agree on this er no?
Edited by Stipe-n Cap (05/05/21 12:43 AM)
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Failboat
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Re: TRUE CONFESSIONS - of an amateur mycologist [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#27294888 - 05/05/21 12:31 AM (2 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yarr
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